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-- Immigrants and having rights
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| Originally posted by nfekted i'm latin, but i have to say, alot of the hispanic people who live here in Miami are assholes. In my opinion, if you come live in the United States, learn the language! Or atleast try to learn it. I work with people face to face(pharmacy) and let me tell you, our worst customers are the hispanic people. They think they own the fucking place!! It gets me so fucking pissed when someone insults some of my co-workers for not being able to speak spanish. State fucking medicaid pays for their fucking medication, yet they insult the country by refusing to even try to learn the damn language. I have problems speakin spanish myself mind you, so I'm lucky to not have to deal with them too much. But they're an embarrasment guys. I'm torn on this issue. They are my people but damn, their ignorance has gotten to the point of no return. I once got reported to the district for not speaking spanish to one of my managers after there was a problem with a customers meds. The guy started screaming at me, telling why I was speaking English. I speak english way better than i do spanish. Damn I was mad that day. It's sad to say, but a good percentage of immigrants are like that. I understand the fact that it's hard to learn a language at an old age, but guess what? My parents are 50 something, and they've learned a good portion of it. ahhhhh....  |
This post would probably fit the pdd better than the COR, but as I had promised here it is:
"My house is your house, and your house is mine" - The Break Boys
It starts with the obvious. Imagine your life as a paraplegic: if you were hungry, you wouldn't be able to simply walk and get your food. If a threat appeared in front of you, you wouln't be able to run. In other words, it would suck. Mobility has, for this reason, had a great impact in human history, and is an important part of our lives (regardless of whether you do walk or not). We're extremely dependent on external factors in order to live, and being able to relocate has been a key factor in our survival. The pursuit of a better life was always behind the discovery and colonisation of new territories.
The whole problem with immigration has got nothing to do with immigration itself: the fact that a person left their country (either voluntarily, or because their survival depended on it) and chose somewhere else to stay is not a problem at all. The problem starts with the birth of society itself.
After a while, all these lands people emigrated to were already inhabitated. More often than not, these lands were already inhabitated by people with completely different backgrounds: in fact, this blending was the beginning of many empires, such as Greece, India and, with some controversy, Japan. However, like I had mentioned before, society might be a problem.
William Graham Sumner coined the term "ethnocentrism", regarding the feeling of a group to see themselves as the centre of the(ir) world. Ironically enough, this is believed to be a common trait among all societies. This is not the real problem, though, but just one factor. Immanuel Kant pointed out the fact that human beings are not capable of direct, unmediated knowledge of the world. Instead, they have to rely on their minds, and its sensibilities of time and space. Mix these two factors together, and a person's way of thinking begins to shape their concept of the world. A practical example are colours: Once you learn the words "orange" and "brown", for example, you tend to see them as different colours; this is not what happens when you learn "light blue" and "dark blue", as you tend to see these as different shades of the same colour, rather than separate colours (unless you speak Russian, for example, which does make this distinction).
Naturally, we're not talking about colours here.
Back to ethnocentrism, let's talk about Imagined Communities. Ever heard of Benedict Anderson? He states that a nation is socially constructed and ultimately imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of that group. We've got to admit that this is feeling is so strong (albeit fallacious), that little people would question this. In order to focus on this properly, let's talk about Slylee's home: Florida
 Damn Cubans and their hot daughters! |
Several Native Americans were already living there before Juan Ponce de Leon arrived in 1513. Spanish conquistadores often believed that Native Americans weren't real humans, so they didn't consider the land as "theirs", as they just couldn't have "properties". He named the land "La Pascua Florida" and, under European belief, that became the name of the land. Soon, there was a settlement there as well (San Agustin), and that is the oldest continuously inhabited European settlement in any U.S. state. The first settlers there did, therefore, speak Spanish. Two hundred years later, the land would be sold to the British, and, if you don't mind me fast forwarding to the current situation, it became an organised American territory in 1822. By then, Florida had seen Spanish settlers, French fighters, Native American tribes and, yeah, people who spoke English.
The most interesting thing about ideal concepts is that they hardly portrait the real world.
The United States does not have an official language, although English speakers (i.e. those whose mother language is English) are 82% of the population. That means almost a fifth of the whole population has another language as their mother language, and often that's the language they feel easier to communicate with. But, why?
"The evil that men do lives after them" - William Shakespeare
Back to Sumner and Kant.
As people grow older, it becomes more difficult for them to learn a new language. The grammar, phonology and vocabulary shape more and more their world (I'm not talking about the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, by the way), and that's why I had given the example of the colours.
Language itself serves one common goal: communication. I'm now typing in English, since that's the language understood by the people I want to reach. If most of you spoke Portuguese, eu ia escrever em português sem problemas 
In Miami, more than half of the population is "Latino" (God, how I hate these loose terms), so there's no reason why they wouldn't speak Spanish there: It should be, according to the demographics, a language understood by a considerable amount of people who live there.
Once again, some might complain: "if they can't adapt to our ways, then why do they have to come here?" - "We can't support them!". Well, we all live in the same planet, and whatever happens here, stays here.
Most of these immigrants come from countries where the US did play a significant role (see Manifest Destiny, Monroe Doctrine), so it would only be natural that they turned to the US when in need. The same goes, although not in a direct way, with the Chinese who migrate to North America in search of a better life. Had the Opium Wars not existed, the situation would probably be different nowadays. This might be one of the reasons why immigrants might bear anti-American feelings even though they live in the territory perceived as American territory.
The children of the immigrants tend to speak English though, so it shouldn't be a problem in the long run.
"No soy coreano, ni soy japones, yo soy desarraigado" - Kazuki Kaneshiro
Since Slylee mentioned Japan, I thought it would be worth mentioning.
Japan is not freed of this sort of tention. The Zainichi, for instance, are Japanese-born Koreans, who seem to face discrimination. The Ainu are discriminated even though they were in Japan before the "Japanese" (they're the Native Japanese, if you will).
This all happens thanks to the policy of claiming Japan is a monocultural country (which is not), and having a "us-them" sort of division. Not unlike the US, many of these groups have a quasi-caste status, and many of them got there because of the Japanese Government (such as the Zainichi who were taken to Japan during the annexation of Korea) or because they were already there (as the Ainu or Ryukyuans). The discrimination of these groups often lead to a rise in criminality, which only makes things worse.
A somewhat similar pattern happens in Brazil when it comes to the Japanese themselves. Although ethnic division here is a bit blurred (due to the country being close to the concept of a melting pot kind of country), the Japanese are often seen as a different group, although the difference might weaken as time goes on, as the offspring of the first Japanese immigrants begin not to see themselves as Japanese anymore.
Oh, yeah, we almost forgot that, they're illegal immigrants. "They shouldn't be there in the first place". Well, this doesn't make sense in a democratic state that values freedom (even if just theorically).
The same way a person doesn't need a visa in order to go from San Francisco to New York, it shouldn't be required to have documents in order to simply cross the Rio Grande. The only division is an imaginary one. Taxes shouldn't be a problem either: if the immigrants weren't illegal, it should be easier for them to behave according to the law.
There's a huge problem with illegal aliens. But, just realize it, just sending everyone back will never work.
My simple plan: First, secure the border. Make it crazy difficult for anyone who hasn't crossed to cross. Then worry about who is here.
They are considering making it so if you've been here for 2+ years you can become a resident....that'll never work -- first you need documents to show you have been here for 2+ years (which will be difficult for anyone) and then for the peeps who were not here for 2+ years, they will be sent back...so they will never come out of hiding.
So I say we just bite the bullet for the poor border security we have had and go ahead and make everyone already here a resident. Because they aren't probably ever going to go back as it is. In the end, it's probably the only solution that'd probably work in most ways.
I know, sounds a bit crazy.
My fiance is 1/2 Mexican, 1/2 Cuban...her family arrived to the US legally. Time to begin the melting pot in my family (first kid due in August).
i thoroughly enjoyed (and learned a lot from) your post lira
i agree with a lot of what you pointed out. most of this is frustration on my part.
i also enjoyed nfekted's post too, because i seem to have similar personal experiences with the "latino" community down here. obviously not from working in a pharmacy, but just overall day to day experiences that occur from living in miami beach. my boyfriend and i go to this laundry place in Brickell (a very upper class area of downtown miami) every weekend to do our laundry and the other week we came home and realized we left a pile of our clean towels folded, sitting on one of the dryers we used (we had so much laundry that day it was hard to keep track of it all). anyway i freaked out since ALL of our towels were there and i quickly got on yellowpages.com and looked up the phone number to the place and called. guess what? no one spoke english. i couldn't even communicate w/ the OWNER of that place. they kept passing the phone around and i was trying to ask them if some towels were there. they were clearly getting frustrated with me and vice versa. anyway i just hung up on them and raced back over there to get them...they gave me an attitude sort of when i got there. i'm sure i gave it back. but yea, it was just frustrating.
another example...i know they are long, but i would like to post actual examples so i don't seem like i'm just talking out my ass and not backing any of my feelings up.
i recently moved into a new condo building and we have 24 hour security on site. the guy is like 60 years old and doesn't speak a lick of english. i got locked out when i was walking my dog because i forgot my keys (the doors to the lobby are always locked) and i didn't have my cell phone to call my boyfriend to come down and let me back in. of course i walked up to the security guard and asked him to let me back in and he wouldn't open the door for me and we couldn't have a conversation. I WAS LOCKED OUT OF MY OWN APT. BUILDING because the security guard hired couldn't speak or understand english. the most i could get out was, "yo vivo aqui pero no llaves". hahah that means, "i live here but i don't have the keys" right? anyway, he still wouldn't let me in and thank god my boyfriend came downstairs anyway to get something out of his car. i was PISSED. but since then i've gotten over it and he always waves at me now and pets my dog and we try to say a few words to each other or just "hi". i still think it's funny that he doesn't speak any english and he's our security guard.
so i'm kinda torn like he is (nfekted). for the most part, i get annoyed by the common attitude of the latins down here and having the big language barrier doesn't help things. but then on the other hand, i have a few friends who are cuban and/or south american and i love them to pieces and they even have close relatives who don't speak english and i try to communicate with them and learn a little bit when i'm over their house. my best friend since 4th grade is colombian and his whole family speaks spanish the whole time i'm over there for bbq's and dinners...they laugh at me and call me "flaca" and "gringa"...i don't give a shit, i love them because i know them.
my boyfriend's brother's girlfriend is another example. she's 21 years old and she came to miami from cuba when she was 15. so yea, she definitely had a rough life up until then as you could imagine. she speaks perfect english now by the way and is a dancer (no, not a stripper...ballet and hip hop). she too gets annoyed at the other cubans down in miami who are all ghetto and don't speak english and their parents don't work or learn the language either. she thinks, "i did it and i came here only 6 years ago...u people have been here for most of your lives and you still act ignorant and don't speak english". her parents both got jobs here and know more english than some other cubans who have been living here for 15+ years. i respect that. but i guess that just goes to show that maybe if we (latins and white people, excuse the labels) took the time to really get to know each other and benefit from the relationship, there wouldn't be as much frustration and ignorance on both parts.
anyway, i think a lot of my frustration would be gone if i just learned spanish. i would like to learn it for the same reasons jonsun posted about. i might as well. it would only expand my horizons. i already know enough to speak a few broken sentences....i took it for 2 years in high school.
as far as the law and what is really going on with the mexicans coming to US soil, i don't know enough about it to comment on it (like about whether or not our tax dollars are supporting them, etc..) i'll definitely give my dad a call tonight and discuss it as he is very smart and on top of issues like this and i always respect and value his opinion.
immigrants are always shit cos they take about 2 or 3 generations to assimilate!
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| Originally posted by candyraverz immigrants are always shit cos they take about 2 or 3 generations to assimilate! |
In theory international boundries should be a myth but try getting the world to live together...
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| Originally posted by candyraverz immigrants are always shit cos they take about 2 or 3 generations to assimilate! |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by candyraverz In theory international boundries should be a myth but try getting the world to live together... |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by candyraverz In theory international boundries should be a myth but try getting the world to live together... |
Lira's post FTW!
Yes people that come to the US should learn English since it's the way most of the population communicate but the simple fact is that the US does not have an official language & FLORida was founded by Hispanics.
Nfekted makes a great point, I too feel that way...but to sit there & talk shit about immigrants as in only HISPANIC immigrants is wrong...there are MANY other immigrants here other than Hispanic.
A lot of Europeans get taught the language early on, in almost all Spanish countries they don't so coming here at an older age & trying to learn it is a lot more difficult than coming as a child.
MONG!
sunsnail is BLACK!
Sucks to hear that, Slylee... I wonder what are the reasons behind their rude attitude, since you were alright with them. Living in a bilingual society must have challenges for both sides, I presume.
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| Originally posted by Allied Nations If race is a myth, shouldn't international boundaries be one too? |
CBF readint this thread
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| Originally posted by eye_03 ive heard that americans will become a minority in their own country in something like 20 years.. |
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| Originally posted by eROs.au sunsnail is BLACK! |
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| Originally posted by Moral Hazard did you ever think that may be due to there being little to no assistance offered to them. In Canada it generally takes one generation for most immigrants/refugees to become intergrated with the broader society. I imagine this is largely due to the massive amount of English/French language programs made available to them for little or no cost. |
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| Originally posted by Vlad The problem is when the immigrants come here, they dont want to learn the language. On the other hand... I remember when I was younger, like 8 yrs old, my grandfather, who was in his late 60's, would go to the local sinagogue to learn the english language - and I would be at their place once in a while helping him or he'd call me asking questions. |
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| Originally posted by Moral Hazard That's a myth. For the most parts immigrants coming to industrialized nations want a better life for themselves. Generally they understand that to do that they need to intergrate with the larger society. If they have the means to do so they will normally seek to, however, if they do not have the means they will remain in their ethnic ghetto and push their children to get the education necessary to escape. |
so, sly, u're back here too?
right after googollyyy and uhm..someone else..
Re: Immigrants and having rights
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| Originally posted by Slylee so yea there was a big protest at bayfront park yesterday about immigrants who happen to make it over here from cuba or whatever and having automatic rights. |
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| Originally posted by Slylee i'm kinda mixed about it. i mean, if u come over here on a raft, learn the language and get a fucking job and pay taxes, then i don't give a shit what u do. but i can't stand the ones who have been living here forever and still don't speak english or work or anything...i mean, i can't just go over to japan and demand that i be a citizen and have rights over there just because i got there. ok so i know it's a little different but still... |
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