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Originally posted by occrider Speaking of naieve, you talk a lot of shit Theresa without going into any details. If you want to call others naieve well than fucking man up and start going into the details so people can respond intelligently about your arguments. What kind of video expectations did you have? What evidence do you have to support those expectations? Start posting some substance that people can respond to .

It's because she is regurgitating bull shit that she has read and doesn't properly understand, and as such needs to be vague in her interpretation of it all. Another victim fallen to the excitement that a conspiracy has to offer over the real deal.

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Originally posted by occrider Sigh ... look here's a radical concept ... citgo employees don't give two shits about updating the time and dates on their vcrs ... really what's your conclusion? This massively intelligent conspiracy was engineered upon us and they forgot to set the correct date on the goddamned VCR? Were you expecting High Definition video from a gas station camera? Who's the bigger idiot, the person who believes that a video from a crappy gas station camera with the wrong dates is due to the fact that the video is from a crappy gas station or the person who believes that a massive government coverup with unlimited resources to "hide the truth" results in a crappy gas station video that's clearly a forgery? Why would they confiscate the video? Well for the same fucking reason that any government confiscates EVERYTHING afterwards any major event. The government is doing what it always does ... doing all that it can to keep everything secret to avoid culpability and/or blame. What, you think they faked the 9/11 emergency calls that were just released? Come the fuck on. Speaking of naieve, you talk a lot of shit Theresa without going into any details. If you want to call others naieve well than fucking man up and start going into the details so people can respond intelligently about your arguments. What kind of video expectations did you have? What evidence do you have to support those expectations? Start posting some substance that people can respond to .

LOL you are ridiculous. I am not arguing, I am simply asking, and you seem to feel the need to defend your countries honour or something.

You jump to the conclusion that those who question authority are "naieve" and "talking shit". Does that even make sense? Should people in general not question those that lead them? Read my sig, (minus the manjuice and add wisdom). Give me a break.

You are doing exactly what is expected from you; passively accepting the "truth" you have been told, and not bothering to stop and think for yourself and ask "why" to the questions unanswered. At least I am not so fucking brainwashed that I can actually decide for myself that I wont just accept "because it is" when someone says so.

There is nothing wrong in asking questions, I am genuinely concerned and curious to know the answers. I am not making any assumptions as to the reasoning behind it, and I certainly do not believe half of the conspiracy bullshit people spout out, so please would you mind not deciding for me what I think when I haven't personally stated so?

Sure, there are a lot of reasons the video could suck... but I am not willing to sit back and say "oh, ok that makes everything add up and make sense" when it doesn't. Why did it take 5 years for them to show that piece of shit video when there is clearly nothing on it, and after all the big deal was made about it in the first place?

any government confiscates EVERYTHING afterwards any major event. The government is doing what it always does ... doing all that it can to keep everything secret to avoid culpability and/or blame.

I would like some sources that "any government" is so paranoid about having the finger pointed at them, that they would do everything to hide the evidence that they were "honestly" not guilty of. When someone murders someone else, and you find the body, do you rush around to hide the evidence to be sure that people don't think it was you? Doesn't that make you a little more suspicious?

P.S. Learn to use paragraphs, it makes reading and replying to your response a million times easier.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa You are doing exactly what is expected from you; passively accepting the "truth" you have been told, and not bothering to stop and think for yourself and ask "why" to the questions unanswered. At least I am not so fucking brainwashed that I can actually decide for myself that I wont just accept "because it is" when someone says so.

oh thats just too funny. yes theresa. youve put a whole lot more thought into the 9/11 analysis than occrider

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Sure, there are a lot of reasons the video could suck... but I am not willing to sit back and say "oh, ok that makes everything add up and make sense" when it doesn't. Why did it take 5 years for them to show that piece of shit video when there is clearly nothing on it, and after all the big deal was made about it in the first place?

youre not understanding our point. asking questions isnt enough. if youre asking these types of questions "oh why wont the government release them" combined with "there is definitely a tape that shows more", you need to provide us with a plausible reason as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I would like some sources that "any government" is so paranoid about having the finger pointed at them, that they would do everything to hide the evidence that they were "honestly" not guilty of. When someone murders someone else, and you find the body, do you rush around to hide the evidence to be sure that people don't think it was you? Doesn't that make you a little more suspicious?

see, this is where YOU are the one illustrating their naivete. this is how governments work. all of them. pretty much all the time. how often do you ever hear a politican take responsibility for anything negative? yhink about it.

and actually, yes. the government will often hide & suppress information available to the public, as will the courts sometimes. no, i dont find it in any way suspicious that if they do have a tape they wont release it. and again, you still havent shown even a shred of evidence that they have anything better to give.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa P.S. Learn to use paragraphs, it makes reading and replying to your response a million times easier.

dont act like a dick youre hardly the one to be handing out that kind of advice.

lets have a recap.

so far you asked quesions about WTC7. i did my best to answer you. wheres your response? have you accepted what i argued? if not, why not?

and youve asked why the government hasnt released a video.

youre not really asking many big questions regarding the whole affair. youre going in many different directions without taking a stand on anything substantive.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lets have a recap. so far you asked quesions about WTC7. i did my best to answer you. wheres your response? have you accepted what i argued? if not, why not? and youve asked why the government hasnt released a video. youre not really asking many big questions regarding the whole affair. youre going in many different directions without taking a stand on anything substantive.

Was this supposed to be a debate? Are you hell bent on having an argument? Because that wasn't the intention. I was simply asking questions and considering the answers from people who claim to know more than I do.

EDIT: I asked a question, you gave me your answer, I asked more questions, you got defensive. I continued to ask questions, and suddenly I am a nieve, stupid, shit talking, dick.

The dictionary definition of a debate is a discussion involving opposing viewpoints, and seeing as I had chosen no "viewpoint" at all, but instead the willingness to hear what you thought to my questions, we were not debating, therefore there is nothing to argue.

[generally speaking]
In the event that I chose to debate, I certainly wouldn't debate with you guys. If you can't have an adult conversation without resorting to personal insults and digs on me, I would much rather not go there. [/generally speaking]

Thanks for considering my questions anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Was this supposed to be a debate? Are you hell bent on having an argument? Because that wasn't the intention. I was simply asking questions and considering the answers from people who claim to know more than I do.

no, not hell bent on having an argument. just merely asking you to respond to the evidence with which you've been provided, go and do further research, or show us why your questions are even slightly meaningful.

youve been given a number of reasons why the government hasnt released this phantom tape, and you still havent produced any evidence to back up your claim that there is any more to see.

you try and say its "suspicious" that there isnt any more video, without showing exactly what about it is suspicious. youre given reasons why, and youre just discarding them. if youre going to discard them so easily you would need an equally plausible alternative. as you dont, i question your commitment to really analysing the facts.

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Originally posted by Theresa LOL you are ridiculous. I am not arguing, I am simply asking, and you seem to feel the need to defend your countries honour or something.

Yes, I'm a rabid defender of the Bush administration. It's very clear with how many times I've said "America" and/or "Bush" in all of my posts in this thread. Way to jump to conclusions based upon what few interactions you have had with me. I suppose I could conclude that you're the type of individual that pidgeon holes their opponents into personality types that they feel most comfortable making clever derogatory criticisms, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're a unique individual that I shouldn't make presumptions about.

quote:

You jump to the conclusion that those who question authority are "naieve" and "talking shit". Does that even make sense? Should people in general not question those that lead them? Read my sig, (minus the manjuice and add wisdom). Give me a break.

Feel free to quote me where I said this. Furthermore, here's a challenge: who actually accused who of being naieve?

quote:

You are doing exactly what is expected from you; passively accepting the "truth" you have been told, and not bothering to stop and think for yourself and ask "why" to the questions unanswered. At least I am not so fucking brainwashed that I can actually decide for myself that I wont just accept "because it is" when someone says so.

I've only challenged you to elaborate on your arguments. This is "passively" accepting the "truth"? This is not an effort to ask "why"? Well ffs Theresa I'm extending you every opportunity to elaborate on the "why" ... by all means please do so. If you think that by asking you for details is too much to ask for, than what do you hope to gain from this dialogue?

quote:

There is nothing wrong in asking questions, I am genuinely concerned and curious to know the answers. I am not making any assumptions as to the reasoning behind it, and I certainly do not believe half of the conspiracy bullshit people spout out, so please would you mind not deciding for me what I think when I haven't personally stated so?

You're not making any assumptions?

"You honestly don't think that a government building with hundreds of surveillance cameras all over the property doesn't have better video than the 5 FRAMES they released?

5 Frames of which did not show anything beside the explosion.

If they have 5 frames, there is DEFINITELY more. Why wont they show us anything else?"

Umm I see a few definitives in this statement alone.

quote:

Sure, there are a lot of reasons the video could suck... but I am not willing to sit back and say "oh, ok that makes everything add up and make sense" when it doesn't. Why did it take 5 years for them to show that piece of shit video when there is clearly nothing on it, and after all the big deal was made about it in the first place?

Because a government doesn't care about a 2 bit conspiracy theorist group that's claiming that because the government hasn't released one video out of hundreds (of which could reveal what kind of surveillance the government has around the pentagon) that it's "prove" that the government is at fault. That's one idea out of potentially many.

quote:

any government confiscates EVERYTHING afterwards any major event. The government is doing what it always does ... doing all that it can to keep everything secret to avoid culpability and/or blame. I would like some sources that "any government" is so paranoid about having the finger pointed at them, that they would do everything to hide the evidence that they were "honestly" not guilty of. When someone murders someone else, and you find the body, do you rush around to hide the evidence to be sure that people don't think it was you? Doesn't that make you a little more suspicious?

Plenty of things make me "suspicious" about a lot of topics but if there's anything that experience has taught me is to be more cautious about things that I take for granted than things that I'm uncertain about.

quote:

P.S. Learn to use paragraphs, it makes reading and replying to your response a million times easier.

Well let's make a deal. I'll "learn" to use paragraphs when you "learn" to avoid ad-hominems and retarded hyperbole.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no, not hell bent on having an argument. just merely asking you to respond to the evidence with which you've been provided, go and do further research, or show us why your questions are even slightly meaningful. youve been given a number of reasons why the government hasnt released this phantom tape, and you still havent produced any evidence to back up your claim that there is any more to see. you try and say its "suspicious" that there isnt any more video, without showing exactly what about it is suspicious. youre given reasons why, and youre just discarding them. if youre going to discard them so easily you would need an equally plausible alternative. as you dont, i question your commitment to really analysing the facts.

Please read my edit.

I did not try to say it was suspicious, I questioned if anyone stopped to think that maybe it was.

I don't feel the need to respond to "evidence" that you claim true. I will consider it, and research it, and make my own conclusion, but there is no need for my input to what you think, when I have already stated I have no specific viewpoint.

The questions are meaningful to me because I want to know the answers. If you don't think they are worth the time responding to, don't bother.

As for there being "more to see", apparently there was. After the release of 5 frames, which again I will remind you was denied existing initially, they released a longer video that occrider kindly provided.

Alright, I have to go to bed.

Thanks for the open-minded "discussion".

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa EDIT: I asked a question, you gave me your answer, I asked more questions, you got defensive. I continued to ask questions, and suddenly I am a nieve, stupid, shit talking, dick.

come now theresa. tsk tsk. how easily we forget.

quote:

Talk about naivete so fucking brainwashed Learn to use paragraphs, it makes reading and replying to your response a million times easier.

all my comments were in a direct relationship to these

quote:

As for there being "more to see", apparently there was.

you saying it over and over isnt making it any more true

edit: oh yeah, me getting "defensive" was in relation to

quote:

Why are you so willing to accept what you have been told

i just dont like assumptions like that, especially if theyre not accurate. its just bad logic.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN come now theresa. tsk tsk. how easily we forget. all my comments were in a direct relationship to these you saying it over and over isnt making it any more true

Way to go taking quotes out of context.

Naive - using same descriptive word to describe me earlier.
Fucking Brainwashed - claiming that I am not
Learn to use paragraphs - hey.. that was good advice, and yea, it was a little curt, but you know what? After essentially being called a shit talking moron, I wasn't feeling too nice.

And to be honest with you, it's 6:30AM and I am beginning to confuse who is who and who said what, so please forgive me for using naive against one person when the other was who said it first

LOL, this is getting sillier by the moment.

Goodnight

I fucking LOVE it when someone so clearly out of occrider's league of intelligence manages to rattle him. Like a fly in a superincumbent verbal shit storm.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Way to go taking quotes out of context. Naive - using same descriptive word to describe me earlier. Fucking Brainwashed - claiming that I am not Learn to use paragraphs - hey.. that was good advice, and yea, it was a little curt, but you know what? After essentially being called a shit talking moron, I wasn't feeling too nice. And to be honest with you, it's 6:30AM and I am beginning to confuse who is who and who said what, so please forgive me for using naive against one person when the other was who said it first LOL, this is getting sillier by the moment. Goodnight

Theresa, I could care less about the drama behind the petty bs, the shit talking, and who started what (I will admit fault to all of the above, I don't care). The original point of this thread was to go into an intelligent discussion of the specific details of your concerns which I still invite you to do so if you would like to continue to the discussion (offline if you would like). Other than that, I have no desires to argue meaningless intangibles.

............ and I still cant see the video.

Since I just singned up here to this forum, I'm to lazy to go back and read this thread from pg.1 But I most say there are some unreleased videos out there that the govt has but they are holding them back so they can trial some of the terrorist suspects that they currently have in custody, for the 9/11 attacks. Currently you have groups trying to pressure the govt to release them... it wouldnt surprise me in the enar future if new videos are brought to light, since the US now is ready to build a case against those suspected terrorists

It amazes when people release some type of fake evidince to say it was a govt conspiracy

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN blah blah blah

this is why the pdd could never invade the cor and fill our screen with pdd posts. cause you guys take 40 mins to put a post together lol....

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa They really should reconsider the development of such large buildings, or perhaps consider a new design that can make them emergency friendly.

+1

while its a good idea theresa, there isnt much else you can do for buildings that size because of weight. the more protection you put in the building the more weight it adds. the towers were very well designed, even designed to withstand the impact of the planes. just not the fires that followed...... with todays fire protection technology they are alot safer especially in fire conditions. the old style of fire proofing for steel structures was a spray on type insulation. now they have a thick matt like substance that is epoxy'ed onto the steel members so that it wont fall off from shock or impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Yea, like the millions of Americans who believe/d that we actually started this war because of WMD, which have yet to be found, and has been admitted by the president himself as a mistake. Seems interesting to me that a government that wouldn't really think twice about lying to their citizens to have them do what they want, would be so generously trusted without question by its people.

Well according to you there are two options. Blind trust of the government, and belief in 6 minute flash video conspiraciy theories.

I'm sorry, but I don't fall in either of those categories. And I doubt millions of other americans do either.

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_

I dont get it. People SAW the plane hit the pentagon, yet people arent sure whether or not a plane hit the pentagon.

And if it didnt, where is that plane and what happened to its occupants?

Oh thats right, it desintigrated into the pentagon wall.

Theresa:

I'm slightly confused by your loyalty to these conspiracy theorists. You aren't willing to believe the government's side of the story because you think something is being hidden but are willing to believe a load of tin-foil hat wearing people who have attempted to pick holes yet when given even simple questions (where is the AA 757 and passengers) use diversionary tactics to convert you

As for AA 77, well it can be explained by some pretty simple physics. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it is always converted into other forms of energy. Consider a 757 can weigh anything in the order of 240,000lb for a medium range flight (it was flying Washington DC - LA), and would be carrying around 9000 gallons of aviation fuel for a trip of around 2300 miles. Travelling at around 400mph (I'm guessing here but it was hardly crawling) that thing has some momentum. Now fly it into a concrete fortress and you're going to not end up with very much debris, that energy it had is basically 'used' to rip the plane into pretty small pieces.(Some lively discussion from Airliners.net here)

As for security cameras, well remember the Pentagon is only a glorified office building. It isn't exactly Fort Knox, you can walk pretty close the thing right off the subway, and this was in 2003. That said it does appear as though there were cameras overlooking Route 27 that would have caught footage of the aircraft, I'm intrigued to see those, and apparently the 757 flew so low it knocked over lamp posts on Rte 27.

_______

If I'm honest I do find some fascination in reading conspiracy theories, both on 9/11 and other things, don't know why but it seems interesting that some people are never going to be happy taking things on face value.

I do find this photo of United 175 from letrolls911.org to be interesting partly because I'd like to know what is causing the light anomaly. I seriously doubt it is not UA175 with 'some military pod' attached like they seem to be claiming. If it is containing some equipment then why not stick it in inside the cabin where nobody is going to see it? It is painfully obvious that if you fly a 767 into the WTC then you are going to have plenty of people with cameras trained on the buildings as you fly ANOTHER aircraft into it!



I did the wrong thing once and asked on an aviation forum what it was and was flamed for instigating conspiracy theorists coming out. Appears it is light playing tricks and it is merely highlighting the wing to body fairing.

Sometimes conspiracy theories can be extremely wild. If you have a spare hour or are good at skim reading this one if weird (and no I don't believe a word of it!)

United 175 was a flying hologram

The other ridiculous one involves Denver Airport and 'rumours' a 88 sq. mile labour camp was built under there housing aliens who eat kidnapped children who are at the end of their useful lives
http://anomalous-images.com/christo.html
http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/denver.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/5692/

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_

yes, ive seen that before. give me one good reason why you trust a geriatric who can no longer see the end of his nose, who saw stuff on tv, over all the various investigators into the crash? you people are so gullible. i pity you.

id like you to tell me how all the plane debris got there. agents sneak in in the middle of the night and sprinkle it around did they?

the damage to the pentagon is perfectly consistent with the size and angle of the plane.

Not to mention that there was barely any wreckage of Valujet 292, which crashed into a swamp, not a reinforced concrete building.

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