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-- Miller wants to tear down Gardiner
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I swear Malek must be a clone of a right-wing shill. You fit the profile perfectly; when unable to maintain an intelligent discussion attempt a diversion, and if that fails, resort to personal attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by dj_souvlaki so than there should be no toll roads. if there are toll roads than build new roads to be toll roads. not use the old ones.

Fundamentally, this is a call for state property. You don't seem to have any rational argument against toll roads - you just don't want to pay. It's for precisely this reason that nationalization is so prevalent, and also the reason why it never works - tragedy of the commons, as long as something's free then people will hoard it until it's unusable or there's none left.

You say "there should be no [x]" but all that means in reality is "I don't want [x]". Very different statements.

quote:

the 407 was built by a private company. not by the city, they didn't use an existing road either.

Actually, the 407 was sold to a private company. Technically, it's not even a sale, it's a lease. That is exactly what should be done with other roads and highways - and you should get your facts straight before arguing.

quote:

Originally posted by mute79 right-wing shill

The clue meter is reading zero.

hahaha omg, mute you kill me.


I agree with you diginut, tolls must solely be used to maintain the roads and expand them.

But you see, the thing is our income taxes and taxation schemes generaly speaking are higher than the USA for example. They don't mind paying tolls... whereas drivers here would be ticked: "on noes another tax!"

We already tax the citizens to maintain the roads. If someone can guarantee me that the govt will lower its taxes to the amount it expects to collect back from tolls, or road maintenance savings if handed back to the private, then I'm all for it.

Why so much cynism?

In Quebec until the early 90s, there were tolls on major bridges and highways. They were 10 or 25 cents a pop. Back in the days, ez-technology didn't exist, so toll booths created congestion. The govt finally decided to remove the tolls, and replace them with a few pennies on every gas liter sold. That seemed fair and everyone forgot about it.

Accountability on those pennies on the liter were lost, and the money collected merged with the rest of taxation collected by the govt. When cuts needed to be done right and left, roads took a beating. Everyone forgot that those tolls who became pennies were collected to keep roads in good shape.

The current generation of politicians are under lobbying pressure by the hippies and their chronies to reinstate tolls on bridges!!!! And no one is discussing the idea of removing that tax on the liter, but instead imposing even more tax on gas! And best of all, the money collected would solely go to mass transit which includes... biking lanes and useless tramways.

Mute you call me a right wing nut, i describe myself as citizen with a memory.

quote:

Originally posted by malek Mute you call me a right wing nut, i describe myself as citizen with a memory.

Yikes, even more dangerous

quote:

Originally posted by TO guy Yikes, even more dangerous

troll much?

quote:

Originally posted by dj_souvlaki if your on the recieving end of some of my farts i really feel sorry for you my friend.

I could see that. Being on the receiving end of your posts is pretty bad as is

Anyways; the only way I would say that tearing down the Gardiner is a good idea is if they replaced it with a ground level freeway/highway and tolled it. Building a normal street with traffic lights would cause absolute chaos during rush hour. And you can't really expect people to just change their daily habits and start using public transit, which is strained as it is.

Face it; the whole transportation infrastructure of the GTA is beyond fucked. For them* to reach acceptable levels of efficiency billions of dollars would be needed to rework the whole system of highways and PT, and about 100 years of debating, scratching eachothers balls, blowing eachother, stabbing eachother in the back, bla bla bla bla bla and maybe then something will happen.

Tearing down the Gardiner, imo, will not help the city in any way at this point in time. And what I don't get is the whole "connecting the waterfront to the rest of the city" argument. How is it not connected right now? Is access somehow cut off??

* = the people who run this p.o.s city.

quote:

Originally posted by malek If someone can guarantee me that the govt will lower its taxes to the amount it expects to collect back from tolls, or road maintenance savings if handed back to the private, then I'm all for it.

This city and province are run by the far Left. Taxes are not going to go down.

Tolls can be implemented efficiently and without traffic congestion using R/F devices and cameras (like the 407). I realize we're already paying for this through our taxes, and I hate it, but I'm also a realist, and as long as it is a closed system as mentioned above, toll roads will improve the traffic and road situation, and I don't have a problem paying for a tangible asset.

Most of what motorists are paying is subsidizing public mass transit anyway because those "business" units don't know how to run at a net profit, or even within a budget. But even if they tripled fares and improved service enough to keep the same number of riders and started making money, your taxes still wouldn't go down, it would just get shunted elsewhere. Taxes, once implemented, are rarely reduced and almost never eliminated.

Your condition is a reasonable one but not a practical one. Unless we see drastic changes in the political climate here, the TCO of a vehicle is only going to continue to increase.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH "connecting the waterfront to the rest of the city" argument. How is it not connected right now? Is access somehow cut off??

hippies don't like being cut off from daylight when walking or biking, so going under a concrete structure is a no no.


Obviously, this is just a scam to piss off motorist even more, it's ideological from the beginning to the end.

Digi, I was NOT talking about HOV lanes lol.

I was speaking mostly about how the 'problem' isn't really traffic congestion, but rather that transit congestion is a symptom of an ACTUAL problem in our society. We're all so busy being afraid of anyone we don't know. People think strangers are dangerous, that EVERY stranger could be that 1 in 1000 who might be out to do us harm. That leads to many (most?) being unwilling to band together and be helpful to each other (with things like carpools for instance). That leads to us all driving our asses alone to and from work during rush-hour.

Imagine this for a minute... If we ALL met ONE stranger, TODAY, and started taking turns driving to work and back every day, TOMORROW, that would lead to an immediate, noticeable improvement in traffic congestion... When? TOMORROW!

All the public-transportation plans, highway/road plans, toll-booths and taxes in the world could not match that type of result, and here's the kicker. Not only would it cost less to 'implement', EVERYONE (since the hypothetical here includes 'EVERYONE') would immediately begin to save money (kinda like a tax-return!). Their would be less wear-and-tear on the roads, saving our governments money, which would allow them to spend in other areas or *gasp* actually return our taxes to us!

Of course, that's all pipe-dream stuff. But if we're going to talk about problems, the first key is finding their source. The solution... that takes getting EVERYONE on board... Haha! Good.Fucking.Luck. The bottom line is, we can't expect the government to fix every little problem that we have to deal with in society on an day-to-day basis. No government can tell people what to think, and no one wants to be told what to do. Sometimes, a population's collective mind-set needs to change on it's own.

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