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Originally posted by Skipper While you could apply it to everyTHING, you must also be able to apply it to everyONE. and not everyone or even most people could universally agree on what constitutes harm and what constitutes good.

While this is true it is ultimately intended as a means to govern one's own actions/decisions. If applied to a organizational or state apperatus one would need to decide what is best for the state/organization (presumably in line with what brings the greatest benefit to the greatest number of members thereof) prior to applying utilitarian decision making. Regardless, my argument is rooted in compassion for humanity rather then untilitarianism.

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Originally posted by EvilTree How does man made conditions, such as corrupt govt starving their citizens fit into 'natural selection'?

Corrupt governments in the third world exacerbate the problems they are not the proximate cause thereof. If not for aid these governments would also fall. The truth is people insist on living where the environment cannot support them thus they starve and their starvation is a natural population control.

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If we fail to at least feel bad for suffering of other humans, what hope does humanity have of survival?

If you truely felt bad you would want to end their suffering, not prolong it. Let's call a spade a spade, you don't feel bad because they are starving... you feel guilty because they are starving and you threw out enough left over food in the past month to feed a family of 4.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard While this is true it is ultimately intended as a means to govern one's own actions/decisions. If applied to a organizational or state apperatus one would need to decide what is best for the state/organization (presumably in line with what brings the greatest benefit to the greatest number of members thereof) prior to applying utilitarian decision making. Regardless, my argument is rooted in compassion for humanity rather then untilitarianism.

Wow. That's some cynical comment.

You're advocating killing off ppl who did nothing, except be victims for unfortunate circumstances and you call that 'compassion for humanity'?

So, who decides who should live and who should die? The ppl who just happen to live in places where they can support themselves?

Planet earth is not at the stage where drastic... culling of population is not necessary.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Corrupt governments in the third world exacerbate the problems they are not the proximate cause thereof. If not for aid these governments would also fall. The truth is people insist on living where the environment cannot support them thus they starve and their starvation is a natural population control.

Insist on living?
So how would these ppl find the resources to move to other places where they can find food?

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If you truely felt bad you would want to end their suffering, not prolong it. Let's call a spade a spade, you don't feel bad because they are starving... you feel guilty because they are starving and you threw out enough left over food in the past month to feed a family of 4.

Thanks for telling me how I should feel.

I don't feel guilty. I am pissed off because earth has sufficient means to feed all its ppl, but stupid govts insist on petting politicking to let the ppl suffer.

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Originally posted by EvilTree You're advocating killing off ppl who did nothing, except be victims for unfortunate circumstances and you call that 'compassion for humanity'?

No, I'm advocating letting those who are already dieing to die. I call that compassion because it ends their suffering and prevents further generations from having to endure the same suffering. Really, it may be hard for people as blessed as we are to understand but not all life is worth living and often death is a better option.

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So, who decides who should live and who should die? The ppl who just happen to live in places where they can support themselves?

Those who choose to live in places that cannot support human populations have already choosen death and those that also choose to procreate have condemed their children to the same fait.

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Planet earth is not at the stage where drastic... culling of population is not necessary.

You're right, the planet does not need a cull but certain areas do and the planet itself is trying to thin the heard in order to maintain equalibrium.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Regardless, my argument is rooted in compassion for humanity rather then untilitarianism.

Your assumption is that death is better than suffering, which is problematic because it isn't true in all cases, even when people are suffering from the same thing.

The idea that people should be basically sentenced to death because of the circumstances they were born into is just not humanitarian, no matter which way you slice it. That kind of logic might have been welcome in nazi germany but not in this day and age.

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Originally posted by EvilTree I don't feel guilty. I am pissed off because earth has sufficient means to feed all its ppl, but stupid govts insist on petting politicking to let the ppl suffer.

and how are you trying to help these people?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard and how are you trying to help these people?

I've been trying to go overseas with certain organization for 4 yrs now.
So far, no luck. (My day will come though)

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Originally posted by Skipper Your assumption is that death is better than suffering, which is problematic because it isn't true in all cases, even when people are suffering from the same thing. The idea that people should be basically sentenced to death because of the circumstances they were born into is just not humanitarian, no matter which way you slice it. That kind of logic might have been welcome in nazi germany but not in this day and age.

My idea isn't that people should be sentenced to death, just the opposite. I'd love if there were never to be another child born in a part of the world that cannot support that child therefore no more children would be sentenced to death due to their geography. Letting them all die off would accomplish this whereas giving them just enough aid to maintain their lives does nothing but ensure future generations will be born to a life of suffering and starvation.

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Originally posted by EvilTree I've been trying to go overseas with certain organization for 4 yrs now. So far, no luck. (My day will come though)

While admirable I fail to see how this will convince the global community to reassess how they apportion resources.

So, back to my story of how I became vegetarian...

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard but not all life is worth living and often death is a better option.

o rly? The greatest gift given to one is their life....and what do you know about the afterlife to make such an assumption..death being a better option...? You sound like you've been through 1st hand experience...last time I remembered...you weren't God. ALL life is worth living...there is a purpose for every existance imo.

I'm rather surprised we don't have any vegans here. It seems to me that anyone who is concerned with the way commercial farms treat animals should (if they are being intellectually honest) fall into this catagory rather then vegitarian. I mean really, what is the point of not eating meat if you will wear their skin or "enslave" them form milk or eggs?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I'm rather surprised we don't have any vegans here. It seems to me that anyone who is concerned with the way commercial farms treat animals should (if they are being intellectually honest) fall into this catagory rather then vegitarian. I mean really, what is the point of not eating meat if you will wear their skin or "enslave" them form milk or eggs?

I can't speak for anyone else but all of my dairy consumption is free range organic.... and I don't consume that much either.

As for leather, that is a minimum too... I have leather shoes on today but my closet is 50/50 leather/pleather. The day that the demand for leather outweighs the demand for meat, leather will be removed from my wardrobe.

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Originally posted by Cribby o rly? The greatest gift given to one is their life....and what do you know about the afterlife to make such an assumption..death being a better option...? You sound like you've been through 1st hand experience...last time I remembered...you weren't God. ALL life is worth living...there is a purpose for every existance imo.

What is the value of a life that only consists of pain and suffering to the sufferer?

We view life as a great gift because our lives are relatively comfortable and full of joy, to those who's lives are not comfortable and devoid of joy it does not seem like such a gift. As far as my views on the afterlife goes; I have no knowledge, only believe and my beliefs are inconsequential to this discussion as my compassion is shaped by their lives not their deaths.

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Originally posted by English Rachel I can't speak for anyone else but all of my dairy consumption is free range organic.... and I don't consume that much either. As for leather, that is a minimum too... I have leather shoes on today but my closet is 50/50 leather/pleather. The day that the demand for leather outweighs the demand for meat, leather will be removed from my wardrobe.

Thanks for the answer. So if I read correctly; wearing leather is alright because the animals are being killed for human consumption anyway, correct? Infering from that, eating meat is bad but so long as people do it you are not opposed to consuming the waste products of said consumption thereby indirectly supporting it, would this also be correct? Do you not see an inconsistancy in this position?

actually Rach, don't answer my latest question as it's really none of my business to question you. I've been having fun here being a contrarian but I think I may be a little out of bounds. Forgive me.

As much fun as I've had I doubt many if any of you will subscribe to or even see some validity in my beliefs so I will stop now. I am glad, however, that a healthy discussion was had..... and no one resorted to personal insults.... that's cool for a change.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard We view life as a great gift because our lives are relatively comfortable and full of joy, to those who's lives are not comfortable and devoid of joy it does not seem like such a gift.

The very fact that most of those who suffer aren't ending their own lives shows evidence that, despite their suffering, there is something to live for.

If an individual decides their life is worth living, then you of all people certainly don't have the ability to declare otherwise.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Thanks for the answer. So if I read correctly; wearing leather is alright because the animals are being killed for human consumption anyway, correct? Infering from that, eating meat is bad but so long as people do it you are not opposed to consuming the waste products of said consumption thereby indirectly supporting it, would this also be correct? Do you not see an inconsistancy in this position?

No, no, I'll answer you hun. Being vegetarian a LONG time before it was cool (and getting picked on A LOT at school for it), I have a comeback for everything, trust me.

Whenever you undertake a belief, you have to set your own guidelines and follow them. 23 years ago, I made a decision that I wouldn't put anything animal or animal-derived IN my body, ON my body was more difficult but now pleather is more available, you can rest assured, that is the way I am heading

I understand what you are saying about ending people's suffering, really I do but I hope for the day that politics and corruption folds and these people get the aid and assistance that they deserve. Life is precious and as much as suffering is pain, I can't help feeling that pain+hope>death

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Originally posted by Skipper The very fact that most of those who suffer aren't ending their own lives shows evidence that, despite their suffering, there is something to live for. If an individual decides their life is worth living, then you of all people certainly don't have the ability to declare otherwise.

+1

It's not that difficult to end one's life if one wanted to...

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper The very fact that most of those who suffer aren't ending their own lives shows evidence that, despite their suffering, there is something to live for. If an individual decides their life is worth living, then you of all people certainly don't have the ability to declare otherwise.

Okay, I don't really want to prolong the conversation but I must respond to this. There are many reasons one may choose to continue living that are illogical and irrational. The fact that one does not kill themselves may be a function of religious belief, apathy, irrational hope, or a whole host of other things none of which can logically lead to the conclusion that their life is worth living.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Okay, I don't really want to prolong the conversation but I must respond to this. There are many reasons one may choose to continue living that are illogical and irrational. The fact that one does not kill themselves may be a function of religious belief, apathy, irrational hope, or a whole host of other things none of which can logically lead to the conclusion that their life is worth living.

Let's lighten this up... I know lots of people here whose life doesn't appear to be worth living!

Similarly, there are days that I would rather kill myself than get out of bed but killing myself would require me to get out of bed to get something to do it with so I figure as I am up already, may as well carry on with life...

Today has been fun and enlightening guys, thanks for that. And thanks for not ridiculing me for my beliefs (too much). I am also impressed that we kept it away from insults and digs.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard none of which can logically lead to the conclusion that their life is worth living.

I find it amusing now that you think you are a better judge of whether someone else's life is worth living than they are.

I luvs the meat!

as opposed to

I luvs the cake!

P.S. I don't think I could live without meat. Oh, and the cake thing is just an inside joke.

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Originally posted by Skipper I find it amusing now that you think you are a better judge of whether someone else's life is worth living than they are.

I didn't say I was, what I was trying to illustrate is that one cannot logically conclude someone's life has merit simply because they have not killed themselves.

I really, have nothing further to add to this. You think I'm a monster and I think you're compassion is misinformed or misguided. Neither of us are likely to change our positions. Please, continue to act in what ever manner gives you comfort. This has been enjoyable, thanks and good day.

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