Israeli Troops Kill 10-Year-Old Palestinian Girl

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Posted by Dopey on Jan-29-2007 15:52:

Posted by Cyrus King on Jan-29-2007 16:44:

Posted by Purple on Jan-29-2007 18:49:

The guy who shot this girl should be sent to jail and hanged.

Posted by Dopey on Jan-29-2007 20:41:

Cyrus, why did you leave this part out of your argument?

"The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa�ada, styled himself the F�hrer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS � which still receives its orders from Damascus � was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel."

Posted by Magnetonium on Jan-29-2007 22:01:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Glad you are so enlightened and have such an open mind that you will change your opinion now that you learn some more facts:

Palestinians have terrorized Jews since the creation of the state of Israel and before, therefore your conclusion is wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen#Palestinians
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/plo.html
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/fed.html

I'm glad you have not chosen sides yet and can still make up your own mnid!

Now you are proving yourself to be a continuing retard. Why? First, read my previous post as to why Palestinians have became violent (some of them). Secondly, here's a quote from the first of your links:

"Armed Palestinian militias known as the Fedayeen, constituted from the refugees of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, made efforts to infiltrate and strike against Israeli towns, infrastructure and citizens. The Fedayeen were based in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. The Fedayeen were recruited, armed and trained mainly by the PLO."

First of all, I acknowledge the fact that both Plestinians and Jews have killed numbers of each other, and still do today (unlike you, who thinks Palestinians are killing each other and Israelis are innocent angels). Jews killed and displaced waaaaaay more Palestinians, but anyhow:

With regards to your reply to my previous post - read the fine print - the ones you quote to have attacked Israelis are Palestinian REFUGEES OF THE 1948 WAR, or Palestinians who have suffered at the hands of occupation forces. That means that these were FORCEFULLY DISPLACED Palestinians by Israelis from THEIR OWN LAND, who instead of carrying on, pretending to be happy living in overcrowded refugee camps with bad conditions decided to fight back. I mean, only an idiot would sit in dirt-filled tent in unsanitary conditions and pretend to be happy. These people didnt wonder much if or they'll be able to move back. Once they saw that the land they were forced from was being renamed, populated by Jews, they decided to fight back. If you were forcefully and ILLEGALLY moved from your house, without ANY compensation or apology - you are not going to just nod and smile, are you? I know you already proved yourself to be the biggest idiot in the history of TA forums that I know of, but if you wish to make yourself look even more pathetic, carry on your discussion.

BTW, even United Nations acknowledges that Israeli military killed several thousand INNOCENT civilians since 2000. And thats not including Lebanese from last year. But you, the "REAL EXPERT", thinks otherwise. And the illegal forceful removal and murder of thousands of Palestinians since 1946, breaking Geneva conventions. And Jews didnot give apologies, compensation and right to exist of Palestinians ON THEIR LAND within Israel, as abided by international community. And what do they do instead? Well, Israel steals more and more Palestinian land, take most of valuable resources (water, irrigated land), illegally displacing and/or killing many Palestinians without any apologies or compensation. 700,000 Palestinians were forced from their lands between 1946-1967. While Jews suffered at hands of Nazis, they turn around and treat Palestinians like this??? And you guys say that Muslim hatred of Jews is unfounded?

To all the losers to disagree, well, all I can say is ... well, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Posted by tathi on Jan-29-2007 22:53:

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
While Jews suffered at hands of Nazis, they turn around and treat Palestinians like this??? And you guys say that Muslim hatred of Jews is unfounded?

To all the losers to disagree, well, all I can say is ... well, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being.[/COLOR]

"Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes. Look at the Congress[ional] attitude on D[isplaced] P[ersons]-and they all come from D[isplaced] P[erson]s." - Harry S Truman

Posted by CHRles on Jan-29-2007 23:40:

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
[COLOR=FF7F50]

Now I am are proving myself to be a continuing retard.

Yes, you most certainly are.

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jan-30-2007 04:13:

quote:
Originally posted by CHRles
Yes, you most certainly are.

Wow, what a clever response .

Posted by Fir3start3r on Jan-30-2007 04:43:

quote:
Originally posted by Dopey
Cyrus, why did you leave this part out of your argument?

"The Nazi-Arab connection existed even when Adolf Hitler first seized power in Germany in 1933. News of the Nazi takeover was welcomed by the Arab masses with great enthusiasm, as the first congratulatory telegrams Hitler received upon being appointed Chancellor came from the German Consul in Jerusalem, followed by those from several Arab capitals. Soon afterwards, parties that imitated the National Socialists were founded in many Arab lands, like the "Hisb-el-qaumi-el-suri" (PPS) or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Its leader, Anton Sa�ada, styled himself the F�hrer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS � which still receives its orders from Damascus � was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel."

Oh...you mean...THIS guy??

quote:

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (ca. 1895 - July 4, 1974, أمين الحسيني, alternatively spelt al-Husseini), the Mufti of Jerusalem, was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim religious leader. Known for his anti-Zionism, al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish state in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine. To this end, Husayni collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS.

>>Source<<

I have to laugh every time Cyrus even suggests Israelis are Nazis...
Poor sod...even history is against him.

Hmmm...wonder who that could be sitting next to Hilter...

Even Arafat made no bones about their Nazi connection:

quote:

* Yasser Arafat's interview with the London-based Arabic language newspaper Al Sharq al Awsat was reprinted by a leading Palestinian daily Al Quds (August 2, 2002):

Interviewer: I have heard voices from within the Palestinian Authority in the past few weeks, saying that the reforms are coordinated according to American whims...
Arafat: We are not Afghanistan. We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini?... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops."

>>Source as above<<

Posted by Dopey on Jan-30-2007 04:56:

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jan-30-2007 05:06:

Fir3start3r, you're an idiot . If you really want to discuss Nazi connections, you might be interested in buying a copy of this:

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis by Lenni Brenner

quote:
From Wikipedia:

Lenni Brenner (born 1937) is an American Marxist historian. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights activist and a prominent opponent of the Vietnam War.

Brenner was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. He became an atheist at age 12 and a Marxist at age 15. Brenner's involvement with the American Civil Rights Movement began when he met James Farmer of the Congress of Racial Equality, later the organizer of the "freedom rides" of the early 1960s. He also worked with Bayard Rustin, later the organizer of Martin Luther King's 1963 "I had a dream" March on Washington. (Neither were Marxists.)

Brenner was arrested three times during civil rights sit-ins in the San Francisco Bay Area. He spent 39 months in jail when a court revoked his probation for marijuana possession, because of his activities during the Berkeley Free Speech Movement at the University of California in 1964.

He was an anti-war activist from the first days of the Vietnam war, speaking frequently at rallies in the Bay Area. In 1963 he organized the Committee for Narcotic Reform in Berkeley. In 1968 he co-founded the National Association for Irish Justice, the American affiliate of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.

In the 1990s, he and Kwame Ture (aka Stokely Carmichael), the legendary "Black Power" leader of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, co-founded the Committee against Zionism and Racism. They also published The Anti-War Activist.

quote:
A Review from Amazon:

257 of 318 people found the following review helpful:

Rating: 5 Stars

Lenni Brenner is a Courageous Speaker of the Truth, October 11, 2003
Reviewer: William Hughes (Baltimore, MD USA)

History can be deceptive. It's fair to say that some of the sensational never-published-before documents, in this book, will shock those who have accepted Zionism and its supposed history, at face value, as a political movement that was the hope of the Jews. Lenni Brenner, the intrepid author of "Zionism in the Age of Dictators," reveals disturbing new evidence in his latest effort, that suggest just the opposite. In fact, he makes a compelling case that the Zionist record was "dishonorable." You can consider this excellent tome as a worthy sequel to his first expose' on the myopic Zionist zealots of that bygone era.

For openers, Brenner showed how the Zionists had a long history of shameless cooperation with the Nazis, especially after the dictator Adolph Hitler had came to power in 1933. The Zionists were also in bed, to some extent, with the other members of what later became known as WWII's "Axis of Evil," that included Benito Mussolini's Italy, and Tojo Hideki's Japan. For example, in March 29,1936, Zionists praised Il Duce, and his regime, at the opening of a maritime school, funded by the Fascist government, at Civitavecchia. This is where a Zionist youth group, the "Betar," trained its sailors for the future Revisionist state. The speakers ignored the fact that on Oct. 3, 1935, Italian troops had invaded Abyssinia.

On another front, the "Third Congress of the Jewish Community of the Far East," was held in Jan., 1940, in Harbin, Manchuria, then reeling under a brutal military occupation by the Japanese imperial forces. At that time, too, Tokyo was already aligned with Hitler and Italy's Mussolini, in the notorious Anti-Comintern Pact. Also, keep in mind, that the Japanese's murderous "Rape of Nanking," had occurred in Dec., 1937, and the "Crystal Night" incident on Nov. 9, 1938. Nevertheless, the Zionist confab went out of its way to legitimize the Japanese occupation by certifying it as a guarantor of the "equality of all citizens," in that beleaguered land.

The Zionist also had a trade plan with the Berlin government by which German Jews could redeem their property in Nazi goods exported to then British-occupied Palestine. And to top it all off, the infamous SS-Hptscharf. Adolf Eichmann, had visited Palestine, in October, 1937, as the guest of the Zionists. He also met, in Egypt, with Feivel Polkes, a Zionist operative, whom Eichmann described as a "leading Haganah functionary." The chain-smoking Polkes was also on the Nazis' payroll "as an informer."

Brenner isn't the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg's seminal "The Destruction of European Jews"; Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem"; Ben Hecht's "Perfidy"; Edwin Black's "The Transfer Agreement"; Francis R. Nicosia's "The Third Reich and the Palestine Question"; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic's "I Cannot Forgive"; and Rafael Medoff's "The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust," also dared, with varying public success.

After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a "fanatical Zionist." Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator. At issue then, however, was the bargaining over the eventual fate of Hungary's Jews, who were slated for liquidation in the Nazi-run death camps. Eichmann said this about Kastner, the Zionist representative, "I believe that [he] would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. `You can have the others,' he would say, `but let me have this group here.' And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful. I would let his groups escape."

Readers, too, will be surprised to learn, that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in Sept., 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler's favorite, the Swastika. The other was the blue and white banner of Zionism. The Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspaper. The reasons for this Reich-sponsored favoritism was, according to the author: The Zionists and the Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews emigrate to Palestine.

As early as June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation was sending a secret memorandum to the Nazis, which said, in part:

"It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state [German Reich] can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims as a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry- -indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions..."

Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious "Stern Gang," late in 1940, made a written proposal to Hitler, by which the Jewish militias in Palestine, would fight on "Germany's side," in the war against England, in exchange for the Nazis help in resolving the "Jewish Question" in Europe, and their assistance in creating an "historic Jewish state." By this date, German troops had already marched into Prague, invaded Poland, and had built the first concentration camp at Auschwitz. The deranged Stern had further bragged about how the Zionist organizations were "closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in [their] ideology and structure." Stern's obscene proposal was found in the German embassy, in Turkey, after WWII.

Finally, I think Brenner was right, when he wrote, "This book presents 51 historic documents to indict Zionism for repeated attempts to collaborate with Adolf Hitler. The evidence, not I, will convince you of the truth of this issue...Exposing the Zionist role in the Nazis era is part of the scrutiny of the past, required of historians."

Posted by Cyrus King on Jan-30-2007 06:04:

Posted by Fir3start3r on Jan-30-2007 06:09:

An American Marxist

The 'Stern Gang' were considered terrorists even by the British has their mandate was for a free Israel by any means necessary, even if it meant by fighting the British (hence their dealings with Hilter) however, the reasoning for Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was quite different as their mandate coincided better with Hitler's plan to eradicate the Jews.

It's safe to say the while Hitler may have been playing both sides of the fence at this time, it's obvious the influences of Nazism has forever left an indeleble mark in the teachings of modern day Muslim extremist propoganda...

I stumbled across this article and you might like it Shaolin.
It's pretty damning for all sides...
Don't go so much by the title of article; for instance did you know that the Muslim Brotherhood was actually on the British payroll at one time, as well as Nazis on the CIA's payroll without them knowing it (the British lied to them)?
Pretty spooky stuff...
>The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda<

Posted by Fir3start3r on Jan-30-2007 06:10:

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
awww.... poor Fir3start3r, Shaolin... you just totally raped his ass!

ahahahahahah

Yea, I was really pwned there huh?

Posted by Yoepus on Jan-30-2007 16:07:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Fir3start3r, you're an idiot . If you really want to discuss Nazi connections, you might be interested in buying a copy of this:

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis by Lenni Brenner

Oh wow! 51 whole documents!! Thats a amazing, thats almost like 0.0000085 documents per each Nazi victim that died in the holocaust!

I am sooo convinced now that because the Asian jews had a conference in Manachuria and were friendly with the Emporer of Japan who spared his Jews and had a discussion on the Jew's behalf with Hitler that he was mad about that policy that indeed both my grandparents family were in fact not killed, raped, or their property compensated. It has become very clear that all those horrible tales they have refused to tell me in which I had to prod them repeatedly are all just the figment of the imagination of my poor old aging family. That tatoo on my grandfather and my grandmother's arm afterall, was just for kicks, ya know part of what they did with their buddies after celebrating the fact that they created a trade plan with the German authorities that when they stole their property, that they could get a little money if the British would be so benevolent to actually let them come to the Jewish homeland.

Wow, thanks for showing me the true light!

Posted by Dopey on Jan-30-2007 17:21:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Fir3start3r, you're an idiot . If you really want to discuss Nazi connections, you might be interested in buying a copy of this:

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis by Lenni Brenner

you're calling him an idiot after basing your argument on what a Atheist, Marxist, pothead dug up?

just because he was born a Jew and became a self loathing Jew before his 13th birthday (probably because he was too lazy to learn his Torah reading for his Bar Mitzvah), you expect us to automatically give him credibility?

why don't you just quote Ahmadinejad?

Why don't you find what actual historians have to say?

Posted by Cyrus King on Jan-30-2007 17:42:

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
An American Marxist

The 'Stern Gang' were considered terrorists even by the British has their mandate was for a free Israel by any means necessary, even if it meant by fighting the British (hence their dealings with Hilter) however, the reasoning for Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was quite different as their mandate coincided better with Hitler's plan to eradicate the Jews.

It's safe to say the while Hitler may have been playing both sides of the fence at this time, it's obvious the influences of Nazism has forever left an indeleble mark in the teachings of modern day Muslim extremist propoganda...

I stumbled across this article and you might like it Shaolin.
It's pretty damning for all sides...
Don't go so much by the title of article; for instance did you know that the Muslim Brotherhood was actually on the British payroll at one time, as well as Nazis on the CIA's payroll without them knowing it (the British lied to them)?
Pretty spooky stuff...
>The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda<

Im really not surprised you would rehash the same bullshit pics with that hand gesture to stigmatize these resistance groups' "alignment" with nazism
Weak, just weak

Posted by Capitalizt on Jan-30-2007 17:56:

marc, do you honestly think these "resistance" groups would not be sympathetic to hitler and his actions were he alive today?

Their goals seem to be similar...cleansing the world of the jews and replacing it with a new order; In Hitler's case, rule by the aryan race...In their case, rule by an islamic theocracy.

Posted by sherifyosti on Jan-30-2007 18:07:

quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
marc, do you honestly think these "resistance" groups would not be sympathetic to hitler and his actions were he alive today?

Their goals seem to be similar...cleansing the world of the jews and replacing it with a new order; In Hitler's case, rule by the aryan race...In their case, rule by an islamic theocracy.

U can say that
but for to b patient for more than 50 years for returning back ur rights!!
AT THIS TIME Israel the only country in the world WHICH HASN'T DETECTED INTERNATIONAL BOARDS ,WHYYYYYYY?

Posted by Magnetonium on Jan-30-2007 20:43:

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Oh...you mean...THIS guy??

>>Source<<

I have to laugh every time Cyrus even suggests Israelis are Nazis...
Poor sod...even history is against him.

Hmmm...wonder who that could be sitting next to Hilter...

Even Arafat made no bones about their Nazi connection:

>>Source as above<<

At least with Arabs it was SOME of them who supported Nazis. That did not help the rise of the Nazi machine. But what did REALLY help?But, in the case of Americans - well, their policians and businesses (like IBM) actively financed and supported, adored Nazi Party for rooting out communists, and so they heavily funded the Nazi machine. Many American businesses worked with Nazi Germany. The helped to oil and finance the Nazi machine that later went on to sweep through Europe.

All the American investments into Nazi Germany in 1930s ...

So, who's the bigger evil - Arabs for orally supporting Nazis or American establishment for actually financing and oiling the Nazi machine? You just got pwned along with Dopey!!!

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story...1312540,00.html

quote:

Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president

Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him. But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

Tantalising

Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.

Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear if he and UBC were still involved in the company when Thyssen's American assets were seized in 1942.

Three sets of archives spell out Prescott Bush's involvement. All three are readily available, thanks to the efficient US archive system and a helpful and dedicated staff at both the Library of Congress in Washington and the National Archives at the University of Maryland.

The first set of files, the Harriman papers in the Library of Congress, show that Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of a number of companies involved with Thyssen.

The second set of papers, which are in the National Archives, are contained in vesting order number 248 which records the seizure of the company assets. What these files show is that on October 20 1942 the alien property custodian seized the assets of the UBC, of which Prescott Bush was a director. Having gone through the books of the bank, further seizures were made against two affiliates, the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation. By November, the Silesian-American Company, another of Prescott Bush's ventures, had also been seized.

The third set of documents, also at the National Archives, are contained in the files on IG Farben, who was prosecuted for war crimes.

A report issued by the Office of Alien Property Custodian in 1942 stated of the companies that "since 1939, these (steel and mining) properties have been in possession of and have been operated by the German government and have undoubtedly been of considerable assistance to that country's war effort".

Prescott Bush, a 6ft 4in charmer with a rich singing voice, was the founder of the Bush political dynasty and was once considered a potential presidential candidate himself. Like his son, George, and grandson, George W, he went to Yale where he was, again like his descendants, a member of the secretive and influential Skull and Bones student society. He was an artillery captain in the first world war and married Dorothy Walker, the daughter of George Herbert Walker, in 1921.

In 1924, his father-in-law, a well-known St Louis investment banker, helped set him up in business in New York with Averill Harriman, the wealthy son of railroad magnate E H Harriman in New York, who had gone into banking.

One of the first jobs Walker gave Bush was to manage UBC. Bush was a founding member of the bank and the incorporation documents, which list him as one of seven directors, show he owned one share in UBC worth $125.

The bank was set up by Harriman and Bush's father-in-law to provide a US bank for the Thyssens, Germany's most powerful industrial family.

August Thyssen, the founder of the dynasty had been a major contributor to Germany's first world war effort and in the 1920s, he and his sons Fritz and Heinrich established a network of overseas banks and companies so their assets and money could be whisked offshore if threatened again.

By the time Fritz Thyssen inherited the business empire in 1926, Germany's economic recovery was faltering. After hearing Adolf Hitler speak, Thyssen became mesmerised by the young firebrand. He joined the Nazi party in December 1931 and admits backing Hitler in his autobiography, I Paid Hitler, when the National Socialists were still a radical fringe party. He stepped in several times to bail out the struggling party: in 1928 Thyssen had bought the Barlow Palace on Briennerstrasse, in Munich, which Hitler converted into the Brown House, the headquarters of the Nazi party. The money came from another Thyssen overseas institution, the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvarrt in Rotterdam.

By the late 1930s, Brown Brothers Harriman, which claimed to be the world's largest private investment bank, and UBC had bought and shipped millions of dollars of gold, fuel, steel, coal and US treasury bonds to Germany, both feeding and financing Hitler's build-up to war.

Between 1931 and 1933 UBC bought more than $8m worth of gold, of which $3m was shipped abroad. According to documents seen by the Guardian, after UBC was set up it transferred $2m to BBH accounts and between 1924 and 1940 the assets of UBC hovered around $3m, dropping to $1m only on a few occasions.

In 1941, Thyssen fled Germany after falling out with Hitler but he was captured in France and detained for the remainder of the war.

There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery. However, everything changed after Germany invaded Poland in 1939. Even then it could be argued that BBH was within its rights continuing business relations with the Thyssens until the end of 1941 as the US was still technically neutral until the attack on Pearl Harbor. The trouble started on July 30 1942 when the New York Herald-Tribune ran an article entitled "Hitler's Angel Has $3m in US Bank". UBC's huge gold purchases had raised suspicions that the bank was in fact a "secret nest egg" hidden in New York for Thyssen and other Nazi bigwigs. The Alien Property Commission (APC) launched an investigation.

There is no dispute over the fact that the US government seized a string of assets controlled by BBH - including UBC and SAC - in the autumn of 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy act. What is in dispute is if Harriman, Walker and Bush did more than own these companies on paper.

Erwin May, a treasury attache and officer for the department of investigation in the APC, was assigned to look into UBC's business. The first fact to emerge was that Roland Harriman, Prescott Bush and the other directors didn't actually own their shares in UBC but merely held them on behalf of Bank voor Handel. Strangely, no one seemed to know who owned the Rotterdam-based bank, including UBC's president.

May wrote in his report of August 16 1941: "Union Banking Corporation, incorporated August 4 1924, is wholly owned by the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V of Rotterdam, the Netherlands. My investigation has produced no evidence as to the ownership of the Dutch bank. Mr Cornelis [sic] Lievense, president of UBC, claims no knowledge as to the ownership of the Bank voor Handel but believes it possible that Baron Heinrich Thyssen, brother of Fritz Thyssen, may own a substantial interest."

May cleared the bank of holding a golden nest egg for the Nazi leaders but went on to describe a network of companies spreading out from UBC across Europe, America and Canada, and how money from voor Handel travelled to these companies through UBC.

By September May had traced the origins of the non-American board members and found that Dutchman HJ Kouwenhoven - who met with Harriman in 1924 to set up UBC - had several other jobs: in addition to being the managing director of voor Handel he was also the director of the August Thyssen bank in Berlin and a director of Fritz Thyssen's Union Steel Works, the holding company that controlled Thyssen's steel and coal mine empire in Germany.

Within a few weeks, Homer Jones, the chief of the APC investigation and research division sent a memo to the executive committee of APC recommending the US government vest UBC and its assets. Jones named the directors of the bank in the memo, including Prescott Bush's name, and wrote: "Said stock is held by the above named individuals, however, solely as nominees for the Bank voor Handel, Rotterdam, Holland, which is owned by one or more of the Thyssen family, nationals of Germany and Hungary. The 4,000 shares hereinbefore set out are therefore beneficially owned and help for the interests of enemy nationals, and are vestible by the APC," according to the memo from the National Archives seen by the Guardian.

Red-handed

Jones recommended that the assets be liquidated for the benefit of the government, but instead UBC was maintained intact and eventually returned to the American shareholders after the war. Some claim that Bush sold his share in UBC after the war for $1.5m - a huge amount of money at the time - but there is no documentary evidence to support this claim. No further action was ever taken nor was the investigation continued, despite the fact UBC was caught red-handed operating a American shell company for the Thyssen family eight months after America had entered the war and that this was the bank that had partly financed Hitler's rise to power.

The most tantalising part of the story remains shrouded in mystery: the connection, if any, between Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC) and Auschwitz.

Thyssen's partner in United Steel Works, which had coal mines and steel plants across the region, was Friedrich Flick, another steel magnate who also owned part of IG Farben, the powerful German chemical company.

Flick's plants in Poland made heavy use of slave labour from the concentration camps in Poland. According to a New York Times article published in March 18 1934 Flick owned two-thirds of CSSC while "American interests" held the rest.

The US National Archive documents show that BBH's involvement with CSSC was more than simply holding the shares in the mid-1930s. Bush's friend and fellow "bonesman" Knight Woolley, another partner at BBH, wrote to Averill Harriman in January 1933 warning of problems with CSSC after the Poles started their drive to nationalise the plant. "The Consolidated Silesian Steel Company situation has become increasingly complicated, and I have accordingly brought in Sullivan and Cromwell, in order to be sure that our interests are protected," wrote Knight. "After studying the situation Foster Dulles is insisting that their man in Berlin get into the picture and obtain the information which the directors here should have. You will recall that Foster is a director and he is particularly anxious to be certain that there is no liability attaching to the American directors."

But the ownership of the CSSC between 1939 when the Germans invaded Poland and 1942 when the US government vested UBC and SAC is not clear.

"SAC held coal mines and definitely owned CSSC between 1934 and 1935, but when SAC was vested there was no trace of CSSC. All concrete evidence of its ownership disappears after 1935 and there are only a few traces in 1938 and 1939," says Eva Schweitzer, the journalist and author whose book, America and the Holocaust, is published next month.

Silesia was quickly made part of the German Reich after the invasion, but while Polish factories were seized by the Nazis, those belonging to the still neutral Americans (and some other nationals) were treated more carefully as Hitler was still hoping to persuade the US to at least sit out the war as a neutral country. Schweitzer says American interests were dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The Nazis bought some out, but not others.

The two Holocaust survivors suing the US government and the Bush family for a total of $40bn in compensation claim both materially benefited from Auschwitz slave labour during the second world war.

Kurt Julius Goldstein, 87, and Peter Gingold, 85, began a class action in America in 2001, but the case was thrown out by Judge Rosemary Collier on the grounds that the government cannot be held liable under the principle of "state sovereignty".

Jan Lissmann, one of the lawyers for the survivors, said: "President Bush withdrew President Bill Clinton's signature from the treaty [that founded the court] not only to protect Americans, but also to protect himself and his family."

Lissmann argues that genocide-related cases are covered by international law, which does hold governments accountable for their actions. He claims the ruling was invalid as no hearing took place.

In their claims, Mr Goldstein and Mr Gingold, honorary chairman of the League of Anti-fascists, suggest the Americans were aware of what was happening at Auschwitz and should have bombed the camp.

The lawyers also filed a motion in The Hague asking for an opinion on whether state sovereignty is a valid reason for refusing to hear their case. A ruling is expected within a month.

The petition to The Hague states: "From April 1944 on, the American Air Force could have destroyed the camp with air raids, as well as the railway bridges and railway lines from Hungary to Auschwitz. The murder of about 400,000 Hungarian Holocaust victims could have been prevented."

The case is built around a January 22 1944 executive order signed by President Franklin Roosevelt calling on the government to take all measures to rescue the European Jews. The lawyers claim the order was ignored because of pressure brought by a group of big American companies, including BBH, where Prescott Bush was a director.

Lissmann said: "If we have a positive ruling from the court it will cause [president] Bush huge problems and make him personally liable to pay compensation."

The US government and the Bush family deny all the claims against them.

In addition to Eva Schweitzer's book, two other books are about to be published that raise the subject of Prescott Bush's business history. The author of the second book, to be published next year, John Loftus, is a former US attorney who prosecuted Nazi war criminals in the 70s. Now living in St Petersburg, Florida and earning his living as a security commentator for Fox News and ABC radio, Loftus is working on a novel which uses some of the material he has uncovered on Bush. Loftus stressed that what Prescott Bush was involved in was just what many other American and British businessmen were doing at the time.

"You can't blame Bush for what his grandfather did any more than you can blame Jack Kennedy for what his father did - bought Nazi stocks - but what is important is the cover-up, how it could have gone on so successfully for half a century, and does that have implications for us today?" he said.

"This was the mechanism by which Hitler was funded to come to power, this was the mechanism by which the Third Reich's defence industry was re-armed, this was the mechanism by which Nazi profits were repatriated back to the American owners, this was the mechanism by which investigations into the financial laundering of the Third Reich were blunted," said Loftus, who is vice-chairman of the Holocaust Museum in St Petersburg.

"The Union Banking Corporation was a holding company for the Nazis, for Fritz Thyssen," said Loftus. "At various times, the Bush family has tried to spin it, saying they were owned by a Dutch bank and it wasn't until the Nazis took over Holland that they realised that now the Nazis controlled the apparent company and that is why the Bush supporters claim when the war was over they got their money back. Both the American treasury investigations and the intelligence investigations in Europe completely bely that, it's absolute horseshit. They always knew who the ultimate beneficiaries were."

"There is no one left alive who could be prosecuted but they did get away with it," said Loftus. "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averill Harriman [to be prosecuted] for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany."

Loftus said Prescott Bush must have been aware of what was happening in Germany at the time. "My take on him was that he was a not terribly successful in-law who did what Herbert Walker told him to. Walker and Harriman were the two evil geniuses, they didn't care about the Nazis any more than they cared about their investments with the Bolsheviks."

What is also at issue is how much money Bush made from his involvement. His supporters suggest that he had one token share. Loftus disputes this, citing sources in "the banking and intelligence communities" and suggesting that the Bush family, through George Herbert Walker and Prescott, got $1.5m out of the involvement. There is, however, no paper trail to this sum.

The third person going into print on the subject is John Buchanan, 54, a Miami-based magazine journalist who started examining the files while working on a screenplay. Last year, Buchanan published his findings in the venerable but small-circulation New Hampshire Gazette under the headline "Documents in National Archives Prove George Bush's Grandfather Traded With the Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor". He expands on this in his book to be published next month - Fixing America: Breaking the Stranglehold of Corporate Rule, Big Media and the Religious Right.

In the article, Buchanan, who has worked mainly in the trade and music press with a spell as a muckraking reporter in Miami, claimed that "the essential facts have appeared on the internet and in relatively obscure books but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes".

Buchanan suffers from hypermania, a form of manic depression, and when he found himself rebuffed in his initial efforts to interest the media, he responded with a series of threats against the journalists and media outlets that had spurned him. The threats, contained in e-mails, suggested that he would expose the journalists as "traitors to the truth".

Unsurprisingly, he soon had difficulty getting his calls returned. Most seriously, he faced aggravated stalking charges in Miami, in connection with a man with whom he had fallen out over the best way to publicise his findings. The charges were dropped last month.

Biography

Buchanan said he regretted his behaviour had damaged his credibility but his main aim was to secure publicity for the story. Both Loftus and Schweitzer say Buchanan has come up with previously undisclosed documentation.

The Bush family have largely responded with no comment to any reference to Prescott Bush. Brown Brothers Harriman also declined to comment.

The Bush family recently approved a flattering biography of Prescott Bush entitled Duty, Honour, Country by Mickey Herskowitz. The publishers, Rutledge Hill Press, promised the book would "deal honestly with Prescott Bush's alleged business relationships with Nazi industrialists and other accusations".

In fact, the allegations are dealt with in less than two pages. The book refers to the Herald-Tribune story by saying that "a person of less established ethics would have panicked ... Bush and his partners at Brown Brothers Harriman informed the government regulators that the account, opened in the late 1930s, was 'an unpaid courtesy for a client' ... Prescott Bush acted quickly and openly on behalf of the firm, served well by a reputation that had never been compromised. He made available all records and all documents. Viewed six decades later in the era of serial corporate scandals and shattered careers, he received what can be viewed as the ultimate clean bill."

The Prescott Bush story has been condemned by both conservatives and some liberals as having nothing to do with the current president. It has also been suggested that Prescott Bush had little to do with Averill Harriman and that the two men opposed each other politically.

However, documents from the Harriman papers include a flattering wartime profile of Harriman in the New York Journal American and next to it in the files is a letter to the financial editor of that paper from Prescott Bush congratulating the paper for running the profile. He added that Harriman's "performance and his whole attitude has been a source of inspiration and pride to his partners and his friends".

The Anti-Defamation League in the US is supportive of Prescott Bush and the Bush family. In a statement last year they said that "rumours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."

However, one of the country's oldest Jewish publications, the Jewish Advocate, has aired the controversy in detail.

More than 60 years after Prescott Bush came briefly under scrutiny at the time of a faraway war, his grandson is facing a different kind of scrutiny but one underpinned by the same perception that, for some people, war can be a profitable business.

Prescott Sheldon Bush, not-so-distant relative of President Bush was involved with Nazi companies and banks before, during and after World War II where he made a hefty profit.

His bank, Harriman Bank, where George Herbert Walker, the grandfather of current US President, was President and was involved deeply with Nazis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush

"Harriman Bank was the main Wall Street connection for German companies and the varied U.S. financial interests of Fritz Thyssen, who had been an early financial backer of the Nazi party until 1938, but who by 1939 had fled Germany and was bitterly denouncing Hitler. Business transactions for profit with Nazi Germany were not illegal when Hitler declared war on the US, but, six days after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt signed the Trading With the Enemy Act after it had been made public that U.S. companies were doing business with the declared enemy of the United States. On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City.

The Harriman business interests seized under the act in October and November 1942 included:

Union Banking Corporation (UBC) (for Thyssen and Brown Brothers Harriman). The President of UBC at that time was George Herbert Walker, Prescott Bush's father-in-law. He is the grandfather and great-grandfather of the former and current Presidents Bush.
Holland-American Trading Corporation (with Harriman)
the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation (with Harriman)
Silesian-American Corporation (this company was partially owned by German entity; during the war the Germans tried to take the full control of Silesian-American. In response to that, American government seized German owned minority shares in the company, leaving the U.S. partners to carry on the business.)
The assets were held by the government for the duration of the war, then returned afterward. UBC was dissolved in 1951. Prescott Bush was on the board of directors of UBC and held one share in the company. For it, he was reimbursed $1,500,000. These assets were later used to launch Bush family investments in the Texas energy industry. This presupposes that Union Banking Corporation was worth $4 billion, of which almost all would have been paid to the Harrimans. "

The New York Herald-Tribune referred to the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, as "Hitler's Angel" and mentioned Bush only as an employee of the investment banking firm Thyssen used in the USA. The label was ironic, since by the time the Tribune article appeared, Hitler had turned on Thyssen and imprisoned him. Reportedly, however, there has been a determined effort by Canadian bloggers, apparently connected with Lyndon LaRouche, to circulate reports that Bush himself was known as "Hitler's Angel". Bloggers from the United States recently have tried to go so far as to infer that George H. W. Bush was diverted to the War in the Pacific to fight the Japanese because of the close family ties to Nazi Germany. Some records in the National Archives, including the Harriman papers, document the continued relationship of Brown Brothers Harriman with Thyssen and some of his German investments up until his 1951 death.[6] Investigator John Loftus has said, "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averell Harriman [to be prosecuted] for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany."

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jan-30-2007 23:37:

Good post Magnetonium. There some details there I wasn't aware of.

Posted by Dopey on Jan-30-2007 23:39:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Good post Magnetonium. There some details there I wasn't aware of.

Every single time!

How does this have anything to do with Israel???

Unbelievable.

A > B !!!!!

NO! Because C likes popcorn.

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jan-30-2007 23:40:

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Oh wow! 51 whole documents!! Thats a amazing, thats almost like 0.0000085 documents per each Nazi victim that died in the holocaust!

I am sooo convinced now that because the Asian jews had a conference in Manachuria and were friendly with the Emporer of Japan who spared his Jews and had a discussion on the Jew's behalf with Hitler that he was mad about that policy that indeed both my grandparents family were in fact not killed, raped, or their property compensated. It has become very clear that all those horrible tales they have refused to tell me in which I had to prod them repeatedly are all just the figment of the imagination of my poor old aging family. That tatoo on my grandfather and my grandmother's arm afterall, was just for kicks, ya know part of what they did with their buddies after celebrating the fact that they created a trade plan with the German authorities that when they stole their property, that they could get a little money if the British would be so benevolent to actually let them come to the Jewish homeland.

That's aweful, sorry to hear about your grandparents horrible experience .

quote:
Originally posted by Yoepus
Wow, thanks for showing me the true light!

You're welcome.

Posted by shaolin_Z on Jan-30-2007 23:43:

quote:
Originally posted by Dopey
Every single time!

How does this have anything to do with Israel???

Unbelievable.

A > B !!!!!

NO! Because C likes popcorn.

Huh?

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