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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Well given the dramatic increase in general prosperity we would see, I'm betting on a decrease.

If there was an increase in wealth equally distributed over the population I would agree, however, I think we both know that this increase in wealth will be concentrated in the top 10% or so, with the rest becoming even poorer comparatively. And to prove that beyond reasonable doubt, the exact same thing is happening in our societies today, and that's without the unopposed capitalism that libertarianism would introduce. Libertarianism takes the constraints off capitalism and the problems associated with that economic system we see today will multiply when regulations governing the market are lifted. You're a fool if you think that will benefit the majority of the population!

More capitalism means more desperate souls that will turn to crime. The country would descend into lawlessness and anarchy...

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Originally posted by George Smiley in the top 10%

correction: less than 1%.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby Like you said: we HAVE to help the sick. We HAVE to help the elderly. We HAVE to help the veterans. It's just what's right.

What's right? What if you are not a subscriber to moral and categorical imperatives? What if you are stoic like me? "Right" is so subjective. Right is the new wrong!

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Originally posted by Shakka What's right? What if you are not a subscriber to moral and categorical imperatives? What if you are stoic like me? "Right" is so subjective. Right is the new wrong!

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but what you say is true, and I know this.

I suppose that because I am a bundle of flesh and blood and cells, I feel a kinship of sorts, and helping others makes me feel like the world is piece by piece coming into place as a planet that we would ENJOY living in, and passing that enjoyment onto our children and future generations.

Don't misunderstand, I understand the futility of utility... however, I suppose I believe in it for my own personal karma.

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Originally posted by venomX Well then, you might want to answer my prior question to Capitalizt. How does that pregnant girl learn from her harsh expirience, ie. growing a child on her own while trying to earn a wage? Also, how does that child benefit from his harsh experience, ie. having poor development from bad education, bad food and poor nurturance.

There are numerous success stories of people coming from such a background though that prove hardships can be overcome.
Economic hardships in one's life, while inconvenient, doesn't always point to a life of failure, in fact, it's normally the fuel that drives them to succeed.

Could the government coddle them? Better yet, should the government coddle them?
'Assist' sure, but I have issue with permanent handouts for those that just want to sit at home, giving nothing back to the system that society has provided.
As a taxpayer in a free country, it's perfectly in my right to bitch.

smiley, you are talking with certainty about hypotheticals buddy..

You don't know what would happen if there were a bit more liberty in the world because it has NEVER HAPPENED. The trend from the founding of America (and every other country) has always been towards MORE government, MORE regulation, MORE control over people's lives. It is this trend that gotten us into the mess we're in today. There is simply no way to calculate the amount of harm the monster in Washington has done to us over the years...

The beauty of socialism is that its politicians can always point to a class of people that were helped directly by government, and say "See? It's working! We gave them money and look how happy they are!". Of course they never need to show you the victims of their policies. The fact is...with all government transfer programs, there are always thousands of visible beneficiaries and MILLIONS of invisible victims. You don't see the small businesses that never got off the ground or the employees that were never hired due to excessive taxation and red tape.. They are the losers under your authoritarian philosophy.

The truth is, we have very limited free markets today. The few markets we have left are the only glue holding the world together, and you lefties are constantly chipping away at them in an effort to create a perfectly planned society. I'm amazed that your prescription for the poverty and despair brought on by tyrannical economic policies over the years is always MORE MORE MORE government!

Mindblowing.

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Originally posted by George Smiley As for Chavez... The jury's still out for me. I can pick holes in most everything I read about him in the press which suggests he is no way as bad as he is made out to be. If the prejudiced view of socialism that Firestarter has is prevailant in American and their media and government, then I would suggest that is where most of the hatred stems from - ideological differences, not necessarily facts on the gound.

Again, the 'hatred' is towards Hugo's version of Socialism (which is obviously and quickly becoming authoritarian in nature), not Socialism in general.
Having always lived in a free society, it is quite hard to fathom having the government spoon feed me everything even those we ourselves, here in Canada, have socialist policies ourselves.
Do I take some of it for granted; probably considering I haven't known anything different, but I certainly don't take for the granted those that have sacrificed their lives to ensure it; a problem with in current generations where entitlement is tantamount. But, that's a whole different subject...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r There are numerous success stories of people coming from such a background though that prove hardships can be overcome.

Of course, but that is a tiny fraction and in my experience something that might be true for our parents generation but it is becoming rarer and rarer as every year goes by and our society becomes more and more dominated by the interests of corporations over citizens.

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'Assist' sure, but I have issue with permanent handouts for those that just want to sit at home, giving nothing back to the system that society has provided.

Again your taking a small fraction of social security and trying to make out like it is the norm. For a start you are equating socialism to the dole and only the dole. Not only does this demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what socialist policies are, you don't seem to know how significant unemployment benefits are in society. Unemployment benefits take up a fraction of what is spent by the welfare state - the vast majority going on state pensions and universal health care. I notice you don't seem to mention these two major policies and instead concentrate on the unemployed - and not once have you even provided any evidence to suggest that a majority of the unemployed are how you and Lillith describe them.

Understand this - the majority of the unemployed want to work, and unemployment benefits themselves constitute a small proportion of the welfare state, so concentrating on this one section makes your whole argument collapse

(Don't get me wrong, there are a hell of a lot of wasters on the dole believe me, but unless you can prove that is the norm, you need to quit this line of arguments because it doesn't work)

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Originally posted by Capitalizt smiley, you are talking with certainty about hypotheticals buddy.. You don't know what would happen if there were a bit more liberty in the world because it has NEVER HAPPENED. The trend from the founding of America (and every other country) has always been towards MORE government, MORE regulation, MORE control over people's lives. It is this trend that gotten us into the mess we're in today. There is simply no way to calculate the amount of harm the monster in Washington has done to us over the years... The beauty of socialism is that its politicians can always point to a class of people that were helped directly by government, and say "See? It's working! We gave them money and look how happy they are!". Of course they never need to show you the victims of their policies. The fact is...with all government transfer programs, there are always thousands of visible beneficiaries and MILLIONS of invisible victims. You don't see the small businesses that never got off the ground or the employees that were never hired due to excessive taxation and red tape.. They are the losers under your authoritarian philosophy. The truth is, we have very limited free markets today. The few markets we have left are the only glue holding the world together, and you lefties are constantly chipping away at them in an effort to create a perfectly planned society. I'm amazed that your prescription for the poverty and despair brought on by tyrannical economic policies over the years is always MORE MORE MORE government! Mindblowing.

Why do you think that everyone can own a small business? Why is that your only argument? Why do you not provide any examples to back your arguments up?

How do you explain that in the western democracies, the more right wing their economy is the higher the crime and poverty is?

There is a definite trend that suggests that as an economy moves further to the right (which is what you're suggesting is a good thing) crime and poverty will increase in proportion - are you seriously telling me that high crime and high poverty is an acceptable price to pay for a tiny fraction of the population getting richer at everyone else's expense?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Again, the 'hatred' is towards Hugo's version of Socialism (which is obviously and quickly becoming authoritarian in nature), not Socialism in general. Having always lived in a free society, it is quite hard to fathom having the government spoon feed me everything even those we ourselves, here in Canada, have socialist policies ourselves. Do I take some of it for granted; probably considering I haven't known anything different, but I certainly don't take for the granted those that have sacrificed their lives to ensure it; a problem with in current generations where entitlement is tantamount. But, that's a whole different subject...

My point is that the media has been proven to lie and twist events in Venezuela to make people think that Chavez is a dictator. It's easy to find people in the opposition that will say Chavez is a dictator, just like Democrats in America will say Bush is a dictator (look at the way he was elected and some of the policies he's implemented that have taken away civil liberties). This view that Chavez is a dictator has been pushed by the American government that view Chavez as a threat to their interests, especially should he be successful in uniting the left-leaning states of South America. This is why I am highly suspicious of media coverage telling me that someone who was elected by 60%+ of the population is a dictator and is acting against the will of his citizens. I stand to be corrected, but right now I shall keep taking pinches of salt with the articles I read about Chavez and the current situation in Venezuela...

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Is it not human nature for parents to want a better life for their children than they had for themselves? If the woman is even a SLIGHTLY competent mother, she will be determined not to let her child make the same mistakes she did, by instilling the proper values in the child growing up that will lead him/her down a different path...towards a responsible life.

Nice and vague. I like your answer. Maybe a rough play guide of what she could do, taking into account there would not be any government support. It sounds pretty when you put in vague terms, but its harsh and inhumane when you try and actually do it. Truth is, you probably couldn't envision how she could get out of the mess by herself. Any way she does it she is prone to harm herself or the child.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby BAM, couldn't have be more well said. Fact is: the stubbornness of the division of capitalism and socialism is a result of the cold war, and is being manufactured by certain political parties for their own ends even today, after the end of the cold war. You said it best: we're already a mixture of socialism and capitalism. Our system is BEST as a dynamic, living organism. It makes it adaptable to humans. How else could democracy, a human system of government, function? Like you said: we HAVE to help the sick. We HAVE to help the elderly. We HAVE to help the veterans. It's just what's right.

Cha-ching. Someone that gets it. This argument of either or is a false dichotomy. Whatever works in that particular circumstance is what should be done/used. NO one ideology will solve all of humanities woes. No one ideology will even serve for particular cases. Most sciences and fields of study are moving towards the realization that there are right actions under particular circumstances. It's the realization that there is no one unifying theory. What do I mean by this? That there is something to be learned from each theory. So why don't we move the debate unto Hugo's particular actions instead of what ideology he says he spouses, after all the Chinese keep saying they're communist.

quote:

There is a definite trend that suggests that as an economy moves further to the right (which is what you're suggesting is a good thing) crime and poverty will increase in proportion - are you seriously telling me that high crime and high poverty is an acceptable price to pay for a tiny fraction of the population getting richer at everyone else's expense?

First of all...proof that free markets = greater poverty? I think the closest example of a society moving "to the right" on economic issues would be China, and it's citizens have seen a dramatic (if unequal) growth in the standard of living over the past 10 years. No other country I can think of has been instituting true free-market reforms. All "western democracies" have been moving further and further towards statism for the past 50 years.

Secondly, please explain how in a society based on mutual VOLUNTARY exchange (capitalism), one person gets rich "at another's expense"? Does a businessmen point a gun to the heads of his customers and demand their money--thereby making them poor?

No buddy. The only entity on the face of the earth with the MONOPOLY on the legal use of force is...you guessed it!...your all-caring, all-knowing, all-powerful...
Government.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Roads, courts, and defense are all legitimate functions of government. State & local governments handle the first two quite well actually. Under a truly capitalist system, there would only be two laws, both based on the libertarian principle of non-aggression: #1 No theft. #2 No violence.

you are truly deluded.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt The only entity on the face of the earth with the MONOPOLY on the legal use of force is...you guessed it!...your all-caring, all-knowing, all-powerful... Government.

tell that to all the iraqi civilians that have been killed by american private armies.

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No other country I can think of has been instituting true free-market reforms

im not surprised, as an american, you dont seem to know much about other countries. australia is certainly one.

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Secondly, please explain how in a society based on mutual VOLUNTARY exchange (capitalism), one person gets rich "at another's expense"? Does a businessmen point a gun to the heads of his customers and demand their money--thereby making them poor?

no, business never coerces! they dont operate in such a way as to stifle competition! they never make decisions that are good for themselves but bad for everyone else! real free market capitalism wouldnt engender very un-free monopolies! nor would it further erode diversity in media. oh, and businessmen don't do anything to manipulate the "free" market so that they control what goods are available, how much they cost and to whom they are sold.

zomg I could go on forever in this thread

but I'm going to let you lefties have the last word...Trying to enlighten you is too tiring..and obviously pointless. Goodnight

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt zomg I could go on forever in this thread but I'm going to let you lefties have the last word...Trying to enlighten you is too tiring..and obviously pointless. Goodnight

i was being enlightened by far more capable libertarians than you, before you knew what libertarianism was. night night.

You haven't been enlightened much at all prak...with your quick generalizations and wishy washy "you're wrong, because neither side is right" statements. Grow some balls, develop your philosophy, and take a stand in the future. Last word.

kthxbai

All non-free market economies fall flat on their faces. When a capitalists economy crashes, it recovers, when a socialist one collapses, everything including the government fall apart. If Hugo takes his reforms too far, which it looks already like he is well on his way to doing that, the entire system will eventually collapse.

3 possible outcomes out of this...

1. Total Hugoism - The system eventually falls apart. Like Cuba, it ends either with Hugo's death in ripe old age, or like the Soviet Union, the things stops functioning.
2. Half-Hugo / Half-Free Market - China and Vietnam eventually learned that without a free market, the country just wallows in mass poverty.
3. Anti-Hugoism - Somehow Hugo is stopped by the constitution or something crazy like a coup.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt develop your philosophy,

whatever, child.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton All non-free market economies fall flat on their faces. When a capitalists economy crashes, it recovers, when a socialist one collapses, everything including the government fall apart. If Hugo takes his reforms too far, which it looks already like he is well on his way to doing that, the entire system will eventually collapse. 3 possible outcomes out of this... 1. Total Hugoism - The system eventually falls apart. Like Cuba, it ends either with Hugo's death in ripe old age, or like the Soviet Union, the things stops functioning. 2. Half-Hugo / Half-Free Market - China and Vietnam eventually learned that without a free market, the country just wallows in mass poverty. 3. Anti-Hugoism - Somehow Hugo is stopped by the constitution or something crazy like a coup.

You have a point. For a time I was hoping he would go for 2. I think it would have developed a framework that would allow widespread social support while developing economically sound policies.

Wow, he's just getting more and more batshit insane...

quote:

Chavez puts Venezuela's clock ahead 1/2 hour Published on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 CARACAS, Venezuela (AFP): President Hugo Chavez Sunday announced that Venezuela's official time will be put ahead by half an hour starting January 1, and its first-ever offshore oil rig will start pumping before the year is out. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. AFP PHOTO "Its about the metabolic effect, where the human brain is conditioned by sunlight," Chavez said in a rambling, seven hour discussion on his radio show "Alo, Presidente" with Science and Technology Minister Hector Navarro. Specifically, Chavez said the Law of Metereology will be changed to reflect Venezuela's new time grid on the map showing it to be three-and-a-half hours behind GMT instead of the current four hours. Minister Navarro said the longer day would benefit "all Venezuelans in their jobs and studies." Chavez also announced Sunday that before 2007 runs out, Venezuela will begin pumping oil from its first offshore rig near the coast of Delta Amacuro state. He said the the rig will mark Venezuela's first exploitation of crude from the ocean bottom in its 100 years of oil-pumping history. Chavez also announced an ambitious plan to build several artificial islands off the coast of Venezuela to harbor cities, submarine bases, scientific research centers, as well as oil and mining facilities. "There's 760,000 square kilometers (294,000 square miles) that no other country but Venezuela has a right to," he said referring to Venezuela's continental platform

>>Source<<

Which lets us to...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley He has to win elections

this is true. but it's also a given he will win subsequent elections and this could only be a first step for him towards something much more drastic.

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No idea. If he did how would that be different to the process the American presidency has taken since its inception?

wrong. we have the Constitution, he has law by decree now. who does that, really?

prior to that: "the Supreme Court is under the control of his followers, the Assembly is 100% -- all of the members of the Assembly are backers of President Chavez. The Electoral Council is very clearly stacked with his followers. The former president of the Electoral Council, who supervised the 2004 vote count, is now his vice president."

again i ask you where the nuance is in that?

i do realize that it's for 18 months but my God man what if that happened in your country? my country? the f**kin outrage would be bloody

quote:

The UK for a start. Any country where the leader can stand for an unlimited amount of elections. Like I said, its better than limits as these leaders are constantly trying to please their publics and have to think long term - the American model promotes short-termness and a lack of interest in what the public wants

that's an opinion and it's yours. not everyone shares that opinion. for instance in Venezuela.

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Everyone in Europe?

i am just as free. and in more ways than one, freer.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Righty ho! You did hear me earlier say I wasn't arguing for communism didn't you? And where ever you live, where ever you have lived, I don't get the impression you're in any position to be making sweeping statements about poor people being poor because it's their own fault.

Which one of the 48 countries I've lived in, worked in and travelled through?
Maybe you don't like how it sounds. It's just how it is in life, you don't put someone who's barely capable of flipping burgers, turning up to work mostly on time and then stick them in charge of something like an aerospace factory.

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Can you honestly tell me you don't think that health care should be free?

I've always paid for mine out of my own pocket.

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Or that old people should get no help?

Compulsory superannuation.

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Or that the unemployed should be thrown onto the streets?

Only if they're milking the dole for all it's worth. Nothing like the incentive of actually having to work for survival once in awhile to bring back a serious dose of reality to a bunch of what's effectively, developed country, charity milk-sops. I'll pay for a well and have paid for wells in Africa years before I'd willingly pay 'charity tax' for public housing in the UK, US or Au.
Why?
Because at least I know the people who are getting it will make the most of it and not waste it sitting around in their living rooms playing computer games and drinking piss.

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What about the police and the military?

What about them? They're public servants and you're starting to waddle off topic.

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Do you trust private corporations to provide these services?

I always know where I stand with a company, they're out to make a profit rather than provide a charity.

hey, you anti welfare people. does it ever occur to you that a pittance given to the down-trodden actually works as a fairly successful method of social control?

ive been from one side of the political spectrum to the other, but ive always viewed welfare in those terms to a certain degree. a subservient level of subsistence, keeps them away from you imo.

would everyone really like a much harsher system (like the US has), and risk the social and economic problems that can stem from endemic unemployment, destituity (is that even a fucking word? haha) and a hunter-gatherer mentality?

theres a whole lot of marxist theory on the welfare state and its two-edged blade, it made fascinating reading.

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