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-- Texas school district to let teachers carry guns
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what are you banging on about? you just told me that the buy-back scheme got a massive amount of unregistered firearms out of the hands of the populace. so what? firearm use in crime is also miniscule compared to the US, and is also down compared to australia's history. the gun laws in australia are pointed to as an example of what can be achieved with strict gun control. your "logic" confuses me

Is it really so difficult?

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In the year 2002/2003, over 85% of firearms used to commit murder were unregistered.[28] In 1997-1999, more than 80% of the handguns confiscated were never legally purchased or registered in Australia.[15] Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies.[29] The majority of firearm related deaths involved the use of hunting rifles, with their share being most pronounced in firearm suicides.[14]

Yeah, that gun control works wonders.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so why then does the citizenry need to be armed?

Because it's not the only component.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Is it really so difficult? Yeah, that gun control works wonders.

you obviously dont understand what you've quoted. you're paying attention to the completely wrong statistic. how many firearms are unregistered when committing an offence is completely irrelevant you fool. its how many guns were used in crime that matters, of which all statistics are down. idiot.

Ok. You keep telling that to yourself.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Ok. You keep telling that to yourself.

Australia doesn't have school shootings every month like the US, and it has far less random homicides and gun-assisted robberies per head than the US.

Regardless of whether the weapons used were registered or not, what does that tell you?

Secondly, regardless of whether the guns used to commit the crimes are registered, strict gun laws means LESS guns will be available to criminals, registered or unregistered.

I also think Zild is speaking for alot of people that have decided to remain silent, yet their prescence is thicker than air.

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Originally posted by diggerz LOL gene pool Yeah, things are fucked up. The economy is shit, there's a war going on, kids not in school, drugs, etc... But, have you ever been south of the U.S border? A third world country ? If you have, you can't really tolerate the thought of people "panicking about the state of things", when in other countries, hope and excitement for the future have been lost in midst of poverty, awfull education systems, skewed governments and communist radicals. You can't really say the US is in such a bad shape when there are alot of things developing in the nuclear, alternative energy, high-tech industries and various research projects focused on discovering cures for deadly illnesses that will change the world, America is a machine, a locomotive, an F-1 that has spent way too much time at a pit-stop

Why are you comparing the USA to third world countries?

That's the whole problem - your country is a so called "superpower", with such vast wealth, population, power and intelligence, yet the country is rife with crime and social problems that other wealthy countries also face but which manage to control.

It's within your power to fix these things yet keep letting things get in the way.

Perfect example - an American soldier interviewed in Iraq said that he was happy to be part of the war, because his neighbourhood at home was more dangerous (than a fucking WAR ZONE). Statistics compiled by the journalist proved this to be true - the guy's neighbourhood had a higher mortality rate by violence than Iraq.

There are no neighbourhoods like this in Australia, or indeed many other "first world" countries. Of course, we have areas which are more dangerous than others, but no where like Compton or the Bronx.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Wanting a gun for self-defense is so barbaric. The only civilized thing to do when you encounter a violent armed criminal is to snivel and cry helplessly as you do what he says and hope the police arrive to take him away. Everybody knows that!

In light of the fact that this thread is about SCHOOLS, for what reason do you think criminals would have reason to attack a school? For money? For drugs?

Perhaps you were referring to teachers needing to defend themselves against kids who might bring a gun to school? This brings us to two points:

a) Tighter gun controls would prevent kids from getting guns.

b) Perhaps you need to examine the social problems which cause children to shoot up your schools.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Anyone who even thinks of carrying a gun for self-defense is just trying to be a cowboy and probably has serious masculinity issues and a low IQ to boot, as all good Europeans know and typically inform Americans whenever this topic comes up.

Relating to violent neighbourhoods, unless you live in one you shouldn't need a gun. If you got rid of all firearms, the need to defend yourself with one would disappear.

Again, why do you think the USA is so different to the rest of the world? Europe, UK, Australia and Canada don't have problems even approaching yours, despite having similar economies and cultures.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Let's get on with banning cars!

Ridiculous analogy.

As pkc said, cars have a useful function in society, and so death caused by them is far easier to legitamize.

Firearms have function only for police and security guards, so it's reasonable for us to say that guns should be banned or at least have laws regarding them tightened.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do you not wonder why you live in perpetual fear of attack moreso than citizens of other comparable countries?

This.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Our poorest twenty percent are poorer and dumber than the poorest twenty percent in most other Western countries, and for the most part poor and dumb people are the ones who commit violent crimes. There are other things as well, but I think that may be the biggest reason.

Point taken, however, going back to the old chestnut; take away the guns and poor people will not have the firepower to commit these crimes.

They could still use knives or something else, but they're a far cry from guns.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog If you got rid of all firearms, the need to defend yourself with one would disappear.

This is simply false. Even without firearms, people being attacked are quite often not on equal terms with their assailants. This may be because the attacker brought some friends along, is overwhelmingly bigger, has a knife, an illegal gun, or whatever, but it is not hard to imagine situations where, without a gun or similarly effective means of defense, a person is going to face a choice of submit to the criminal and let him have his way with you or face severe injury and possibly death.

Some people would rather be armed so that they can resist thugs rather than submit to them and meekly await the arrival of the police while desperately hoping the attacker decides to spare their life. This should really not be that tough to understand.

I am sure you think that, given how guns get misused in the U.S., the negative aspects outweigh the opportunity for self-defense afforded by firearms. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on that and call it a difference of values.

As far as the rest of the stuff, I am not interested in going over the same points again.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne You're not really buttressing your argument here. The state isn't destabilized by gun ownership. To the contrary, the state is destabilized by malignant forces in the government which firearm ownership keeps in check to some extent. Thus, firearm ownership is a stabilizing force within a state.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Certainly an army of average gun owners would stand little chance. But in the rather fanciful scenario of an oppressive U.S. government trying to round up and kill some set of civilians en masse, there would probably be at least some rebellion by current and former members of military and police, who could provide tactical and weapons knowledge necessary for resistance.

I can't believe you're resorting to making up such fictituous scenarios which let's face it, happen very rarely (if ever?) in western society, or do you group the USA with 3rd world countries where the governments are so oppressive and can explode at any time?
The "what if?" argument is stupid and redundant and shows just how low in the barrel you have to scoop to get any sort of argument to support your case. While the rest of us have empirical data and evidence (some of which I've already posted) to back up our points, you're resorting to worse case scenarios. That's not gonna cut it.
I would quickly retort but Aquadyne seems to have contradicted himself and explained it perfectly:

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Originally posted by Aquadyne And what makes you think that US soldiers would execute that kind of order? And what makes you think that sort of thing wouldn't make your "average American" even more inclined to resist as much as possible?

Well done. You've done a complete 180 and then in the same post done another 180:

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Originally posted by Aquadyne PKC, Since you live in Australia, I would actually advise you to loosen some gun laws seeing the problems that you have... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia Might as well just start legalizing them. At least you would give responsible citizens a chance to defend themselves too. For now, I wouldn't worry about a malevolent government trying to rob the citizenry of its rights since Kevin Rudd doesn't seem to be that clever. As it is, I bid you a good night.

Apart from the fact that it's painfully obvious how your intrepretation of data is well let's say....non-existent, 85% of a tiny number is still a tiny number. If...

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The number of guns stolen has fallen dramatically from 4,000 per year[16] to 664 in a six-month period in 2005[30]. This is because of efforts by police and shooting bodies to encourage secure storage of guns. Long guns are more often stolen opportunistically in home burglaries, but few homes have handguns and a substantial proportion of stolen handguns are taken from security firms and other businesses. Only a tiny proportion, 0.06% of licensed firearms, are stolen in a given year, and while only a small proportion of those firearms are recovered, only about 3% will afterward be connected to an actual crime.

...and 85% is related to murders with unregistered guns, let's say we take 664 stolen guns, plus let's throw in a hypothetical and round that out to 3000 unregistered guns. I doubt that even 20% of those would be used for murder (apparently only about 3% actually)and 85% of that is a small number. Comparatively, the US has FAR FAR FAAAAAR more deaths and your guns are registered. I can't be bothered to be honest, but if you took the time you would be able to find exact figures and they would be drastically lower both in number and relative percentage in every other western nation with strict gun laws than in the US.

ps. Take careful notice of what's in bold

Firearm registration is not required in Georgia

rapist

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Originally posted by Fledz While the rest of us have empirical data and evidence (some of which I've already posted) to back up our points, you're resorting to worse case scenarios.

For the most part, statistics are beside the point in this debate. All the statistics tell us is that the number of guns correlate with the number of gun deaths. Well, duh.

The real difference is one of values. The non-Americans in this thread think that stripping the citizenry of truly effective personal defense against criminals is worth it if it means a significant reduction in gun deaths. The Americans (and Aquadyne) are arguing that while the many gun deaths are unfortunate, death-reduction does not justify making people helpless against any thug who brings enough friends or carries a big enough knife. This is a debate about values, which means that no minds are likely to be changed here in spite of dozens of statistical tables showing what everyone already knows, that guns are indeed dangerous and used for violent crime.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles This is simply false. Even without firearms, people being attacked are quite often not on equal terms with their assailants. This may be because the attacker brought some friends along, is overwhelmingly bigger, has a knife, an illegal gun, or whatever, but it is not hard to imagine situations where, without a gun or similarly effective means of defense, a person is going to face a choice of submit to the criminal and let him have his way with you or face severe injury and possibly death. Some people would rather be armed so that they can resist thugs rather than submit to them and meekly await the arrival of the police while desperately hoping the attacker decides to spare their life. This should really not be that tough to understand. I am sure you think that, given how guns get misused in the U.S., the negative aspects outweigh the opportunity for self-defense afforded by firearms. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on that and call it a difference of values. As far as the rest of the stuff, I am not interested in going over the same points again.

And? If you have a gun legally, chances are they have a gun legally too, or at least find it real easy to get a hold of one. So, even though you have a gun, the assailant AND his friends also have guns. You stand no chance.

On top of that, not only can you now not run (an option which you have if they have knives only) or call for help, if you get into a fight you will die. A gunshot wound will do a lot more damage than a knife wound.

Oh and on top of that, your death or injury has now left yet another gun on the street. Namely yours, which they are free to take at any time of your twitching and possibly lifeless body.

Oh hold on, here's something else. The average person has no military training. They may think they can defend themselves but chances are they will freeze up.
Ask any soldier who has been in war how training can never truly prepare you for war. Go ahead.
Your armed forces are examples of this themselves. You have all the training in the world yet all of your greenhorns lack experience and they die by the bucketload. Yes, this is partly due to your idiot cannonfodder tactics which you have always used, but also due to inexperience.

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Originally posted by Fledz And? If you have a gun legally, chances are they have a gun legally too, or at least find it real easy to get a hold of one. So, even though you have a gun, the assailant AND his friends also have guns. You stand no chance.

This is always a possibility. People who think gun ownership should be allowed are willing to take that chance if it means they can have access to an effective means of self-defense.

But you in your superior wisdom and enlightened thought know better, right? Anyone who thinks differently must surely be a Neanderthal.

Unga unga.

Not at all but look at Europe, Canada, Australia and NZ as examples of why our thinking is better than yours.

Maybe that does make us more evolved? Perhaps someone should write a paper on it then...

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Originally posted by Fledz Maybe that does make us more evolved?

Of course it does! Now can you just leave us American primitives alone about guns and let us waste away in our primitive, gun-laden lifestyle?

We would, but sadly you effect the world too much so we have no choice but to live with you. You're kind of like an annoying sibling. We love you, yet sometimes we really wish you didn't exist

Seems like a good idea; in order to get the most benefit out of idiots wielding guns, stick them in a room full of idiot-children so that they can kill off their own kind's offspring before most of them have the chance to reproduce.

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Originally posted by Fledz We would, but sadly you effect the world too much so we have no choice but to live with you. You're kind of like a retarded cousin. We love you, yet sometimes we really wish you didn't exist

Fixed.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence self-defence

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Screamed ecstatically and gleefully by everyone living outside of the USA Our countries are safe, we don't feel threatened on the streets!

Seriously though JBJ, a few questions for you:

1. Do you own a gun yourself?

2. Your city doesn't even have a population over 2 million, which, in my experience, is hardly enough to foster the kind of mass "random" crime and street muggings you are talking about. Do you feel threatened in parts of the city?

3. Have you ever been mugged or attacked for no specific reason?

4. Would you feel okay with shooting someone, even in self-defence?

5. Do you actually believe in the "self-defence" argument you've been expounding, or are you doing it as a matter of principle to prove that not all people with a "pro gun" stance are idiots?

6. Do you honestly think that a citizen with a firearm will have much chance against a thug with a gun? In most cases, a thug will enter a situation with the intent or a readiness to cause harm (i.e jump out from behind a corner), and will hence have the upper hand by having a weapon pointed at you, as opposed to an honest citizen who is reactionary. Any attempt to defend themselves will most likely end in tragedy for both parties (i.e a shootout), rather than the criminal making off with the victim's wallet, as is the usual aim, while the victim remains unharmed. You've mentioned several times that without a weapon you will be "at the mercy" of criminals. Do you think that their aim is to hurt you, or to take your possessions and/or money?

7. If self-defence is so important to you, why are you not leaving the house wearing a bullet-proof vest, which is the most practical form of defence, rather than a gun, which is a weapon?

I'm with pkc here. Fucking American south-KKK and all the crazy white-trash cowboys lol.

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Originally posted by diggerz I also think Zild is speaking for alot of people that have decided to remain silent, yet their prescence is thicker than air.

I speak only for myself but I guarantee you if a majority didn't feel the same way as I do that the laws would change. But they don't because Americans value their right to bear arms. The statistics on being murdered or commiting suicide as posted earlier are so miniscule they pale in comparison to the idea that Americans would give up their rights so easily. So nine out of a hundred thousand die instead of three out of a hundred thousand. Oh noes!

I guess though if you're never had a weapon save your life you wouldn't understand.

13 pages woot woot.

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Originally posted by Fledz Can the US get more retarded? Apparently yes

Can Croatian comments become any more asinine? Apparently yes

enough is enough. can everybody plz stop talking about Nazis, Iraq, and whatever else crap youre talking about that has nothing to do w/ the thread title. its entertaining and everything, but damn.

The question is, should teachers be able to bring guns to school?

I say hell no. i dont even like guns to begin with. plus i was always pissing my teachers off.....wouldnt want one of them to pop a cap in my ass

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Americans value their right to bear arms.

UNGA UNGA!

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