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-- The Official 2008-2009 NBA/Toronto Raptors Discussion Thread
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i'm thinkin that sam's days are numbered.....i like sam mitchell but i think it's time for a change...

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Originally posted by slingshot I'm actually kind of liking Devlin now...he's telling it like it is. You can tell by his commentary that he definately has the "wtf is wrong this team and why do they keep making all these stupid plays" state of mind.

+1 he's no homer.

As for Sam, I've been saying it for over a year [check last year's thread!!], he needs to go.

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Originally posted by Sly_Guy As for Sam, I've been saying it for over a year [check last year's thread!!], he needs to go.

*sigh*

How is it Sam's fault exactly when the guys can't play defence, or settle for jumpers? The guy doesn't have that much control over them. Sure I'd like to see some set plays; but that would've hardly helped the Raptors getting manhandled last night.

Face it: this team just isn't that good. They had a lucky run in 2006-2007 but that's it. This year though, our "talent" is being exposed. None of the perimeter players can play defense (either because they suck at it; or they're old) and that's how we're constantly getting beat.

Ps. For the record: I do think we would benefit from a new coach. Keep in mind though, that if Sam gets fired then this season will be a guaranteed write-off.

I always find it shocking how quickly you guys shit on your team lol Hey, that game sucked, they had a fucking brutal night. But have some faith/loyalty!

It may not be Sam's fault but I think he has lost the team...they just aren't listening anymore.

Remember....coaches are hired to be fired.

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Originally posted by jon jon I always find it shocking how quickly you guys shit on your team lol Hey, that game sucked, they had a fucking brutal night. But have some faith/loyalty!

I'm not shitting on my team. Reality is just kicking in

It's pretty frustrating watching this team commit the same stupid mistakes over and over and over for the past 2 seasons.

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Originally posted by jon jon I always find it shocking how quickly you guys shit on your team lol Hey, that game sucked, they had a fucking brutal night. But have some faith/loyalty!

Faith? Loyalty? Obviously the loyalty isn't in question but the faith part sure is. The Raps have been shitting on us for years. Ever since the Vince escapades, stupid signings of players who come here and pretty much give up....I've had my hopes built and let down so many times now. I want a winner in this city and I want to see the organization do whatever it takes to get that. If they have to make abrupt changes to achieve that than so be it. But enough is enough, we need a good basketball team already.

As per Sam Mitchell....aside from getting lucky for half a season, there has always been issues with his coaching. He just doesn't seem to get players motivated or have them play as a cohesive unit. Whatever he's been preaching over the last few seasons has not worked. We're still the same old Raps with all of the same problems that we've had over the last couple of years. We have a front line of 3 seven footers yet we are still one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA...wtf is that?

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Originally posted by jon jon I always find it shocking how quickly you guys shit on your team lol Hey, that game sucked, they had a fucking brutal night. But have some faith/loyalty!

it's been same problems for years. settle for bad jumpers. can't rebound. gets pwned in the paint. shitty perimeter defence.

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Originally posted by slingshot We have a front line of 3 seven footers yet we are still one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA...wtf is that?

I wouldn't say that falls on Mitchells lap. Unless he tells the guys that whenever the ball goes up in the air they have to start running back. I dunno. Maybe the coaching staff needs to take more time to teach our players how to box out and rebound? Or maybe the players just don't get "it"?

My biggest beef with Mitchell is how he runs the offence which can be summed up in exactly 2 points:
-Give Jose the ball
-Make an angry face when the ball is aired or T/O'ed.

He needs to keep his players on a tighter leash; Call out specific plays; call a time out if there's even a HINT of the opponent making some sort of run. Don't wait until they got on a 10-0 run.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH *sigh* How is it Sam's fault exactly when the guys can't play defence, or settle for jumpers? The guy doesn't have that much control over them. Sure I'd like to see some set plays; but that would've hardly helped the Raptors getting manhandled last night. Face it: this team just isn't that good. They had a lucky run in 2006-2007 but that's it. This year though, our "talent" is being exposed. None of the perimeter players can play defense (either because they suck at it; or they're old) and that's how we're constantly getting beat. Ps. For the record: I do think we would benefit from a new coach. Keep in mind though, that if Sam gets fired then this season will be a guaranteed write-off.

This guy on a sports forum I read summed up the coaching deficiencies into 5 succinct bullet points:

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Originally posted by The Claw on prosportsdaily.com This is Smith's game plan: 1.Offensively --Pick and Roll --Pick and Pop --and if both fails... jack up the shot. 2.Defensively: --Double whoever has the ball and dont bother defending the cutters and the weakside. 3. Substitution Patterns: --"As long as my starters get their 5-10 minutes rest in between quarters, no matter what the situation is, I will still stick to my rigid plan and I dont care who has the hot hand, if its time for him to rest, he will rest" 4. Game Recognition: --"The opposing team is making a run, will I call a timeout or should I wait for the mandated every quarter official's timeout?" 5. Calling a play after a timeout: --"Just give the ball to Bosh and he will make it happen"

or another good one:

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Originally posted by B2B on prosportsdaily.com You might see change but to me it's so minimal, I can't acknowledge it as change. (in response to someone stating Mitchell has changed as a coach since his first season in Toronto) Things that didn't change - Still doesn't know how to defend the wing. It's the players fault. - Team structure & concept (identity) give the ball to Bosh & shoot when open. Excuse "we didn't make our shots". - Mind set - blaming players when they can't create for themselves & our offence goes stagnant because he has no alternative solutions as a coach to free his so called less than talented players as other coaches adjust to us. - Momentum - Sam doesn't know how to maintain momentum due to his rotations, substitutions & recognition (losing big leads, & missmatches). He responds to the other team insted of him making them respond to us. (Play to our strengths, not theirs) - Most importantly results. The results r the same, no matter the players. We look like an nbdl team on occasions. Our players appear to not know what to do on and off the ball. Is that the players lack of talent or the coaches lack of preperation & instruction?. A coach is like a director if an actor misses his cue, who's responsible?. Did JO not provide the interior d we were looking for?. If you can answer yes, why r we not better?. I would say watching O'Neal early, he brings everything as advertised including somewhat surprising offence. So why no improvement?. O'Neal - is a good defender & post presence Bosh - was recognized by the US team as a good defender Moon & Joey - r built to defend Parker - is our best defender (Smart) Jose = our worst defender (substantially) but knows how to cheat enough to get the ocassional steal. To me this does not equate to a team thats less than avg defensively. On a whole were supposed to be able to defend teams even with Jose's less than stellar d. Why is it we can't defend as a team for a full 48 mins with so many capable players?. I know some will answer this & say our players r not capable of defending, I say they r & it's Sam who is incapable of using his players correctly which is in turn making the players look like they r incapable of what I know they r capable of. I say 48 mins because for stretches you can see the potential of our defence. This brings us back to ingame adjustments. When teams adjust, we can't. Why?

I think that is about right. It's not about the individual players, it's about the schemes. We've shown that when playing together we can play with the best of them, last season and this, we just don't have a coach who can get us all pulling in the same direction.

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Originally posted by Sly_Guy This guy on a sports forum I read summed up the coaching deficiencies into 5 succinct bullet points:

LOL I just mentioned 3 of the 5 points in my previous points. Like I said before: I agree that we need a new coach. But you can't solely blame him for all the bad things going on. The players are professionals. They should know how to win games and take advantages of mismatches; but do they? (Outside of Bosh or O'Neal, of course)

The worst part of it all is that there aren't any competent coaches out there right now. Bryon Scott is hitting a bit of a rough patch in New Orleans but I wouldn't want him here. His situation with the Hornets looks like a repeat of his days in New Jersey so there's clearly something wrong with him too.

The only problem is...if they can Sam...who's available? Avery Johnson? Mike Fratello? Doug Collins? The coaching options are very limited right now...

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Originally posted by slingshot The only problem is...if they can Sam...who's available? Avery Johnson? Mike Fratello? Doug Collins? The coaching options are very limited right now...

Anyone's better right now. There may not be long-term people out there we're interested in, but it's clear that the team has tuned out Sam. Look at their faces on the bench, instead of being into the game, supporting their teammates, it's all looks of indifference.

Jeff Van Gundy should make a come back! LOL

Seriously though Frat would probably be our best option for the time being since he can break apart a defensive and offensive system. He seems to be the most "intelligent" coach out of the available ones.

O'Neil is too old and fragile and not worth the money. Trade him.

Kapono is too white and too slow and not worth the money. Trade him.

Moon shoots too many long range jumpers for a guy with a so-so jumpshot. Trade him.

Humphries is a spazz and an airhead. Trade him.

Solomon belongs on the playground, not in the NBA. Trade him (or cut him).

The rest can stay.

We need more athletes that can guard people one-on-one and create their own shots.

We need a veteran point guard to back up Jose. Ukic is not ready.

isn't Flip Saunders available?

a 'defense first' coach wouldn't be such a bad thing.

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Originally posted by SuperJimbo O'Neil is too old and fragile and not worth the money. Trade him. Kapono is too white and too slow and not worth the money. Trade him. Moon shoots too many long range jumpers for a guy with a so-so jumpshot. Trade him. Humphries is a spazz and an airhead. Trade him. Solomon belongs on the playground, not in the NBA. Trade him (or cut him). We need a veteran point guard to back up Jose. Ukic is not ready.

O'Neil still has some game left...I think he'll be a 16 and 9 player this year...he still definately has some quickness on the blocks...old centers can't spin that fast...I'm not giving up on him just yet.

Kapono is one of the best, if not the best shooter in the nba....the fact that he isn't getting shots and isn't doing much should tell you something about the team and the coach. Kapono is money, he needs to stay and be utilized so that he can actually earn that contract he was given.

Moon is a waste....totally got lucky for a year and now we're starting to see why this guy has bounced around the world. His basketball IQ is in the negatives.

The Hump...ahhhhhh.....hard to disagree with the airhead comment, lol. He still proceeds to think he's Michael Jordan and that he actually has an arsenal of moves.

Solomon is garbage and needs to go ASAP. What an idiot of a player. His attitude stinks as well.

Wouldn't it be awesome if Colangelo could somehow swing a trade for Gerald Wallace and a backup PG? I think we'd be pretty close to contender status than.

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Originally posted by slingshot Wouldn't it be awesome if Colangelo could somehow swing a trade for Gerald Wallace and a backup PG? I think we'd be pretty close to contender status than.

Wouldnt acquiring Wallace put the Raps over the cap?

i did not know you where black yohan.

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Originally posted by Yohan Wouldnt acquiring Wallace put the Raps over the cap?

Absolutely...his hands are tied pretty good right now with what he could do....ahhhh...

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Originally posted by SuperJimbo O'Neil is too old and fragile and not worth the money. Trade him.

He's only 30 years old. As for too fragile? We'll see at the end of the season how many games he actually plays for the team. Right now he helps Bosh and Bargnani out a lot down low so trading him wouldn't be that good of a move.

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Originally posted by elFreak i did not know you where black yohan.

everyone has a little bit of black in them

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH He's only 30 years old. As for too fragile? We'll see at the end of the season how many games he actually plays for the team

Um, no, nice try.

04-05 - 44 games
05-06 - 51 games
06-07 - 69 games
07-08 - 42 games

Career average minutes per game: 28.2 (averaging 28.7 this year and last)

Salary 2009: $21,372,000 !!!!!!!!!

I just don't see how evaluating our players right now is the right thing to do. Get us a new coach, with a new system and then see what pieces are missing or in abundance. The players aren't listening (ie bosh not going to sam's huddle during a timeout a few games back), so of course they'll look bad on the court. And by looking bad on the court all of their trade value drops, so we won't be getting fair exchange. Besides, we have the league minimum for the number of players on our roster right now, and limited cap space so what are we expecting to do? Trade 3:1, and draw off the D-League, destroying what's left of our already limited depth? Or trade integral pieces like Jose or Bosh to bring in depth and no firepower?

This was the biggest problem with bringing in JO in the offseason, it left us no wiggle-room under the cap, and with a player who by all accounts was the best trade we had available by the numbers, was a huge risk by the medical reports.

quote:

Originally Posted by infinity HiGH They should know how to win games and take advantages of mismatches; but do they? (Outside of Bosh or O'Neal, of course)

here's the thing, our team is chalk full of shooters. Kapono, Bargs, Parker, Jose are all deadly from range. It's their game. But players like that need to be freed up with plays to be effective. Look at all the greats who's game was like that. Reggie, Rice, RIP, Allen. Each one needs help to run off screens to free themselves, and POW! All the sudden they look amazing, not because they're recklessly attacking the rim with handles beyond their skillset, but by playing to their strengths. So why not add another play to our immense list of pick and roll and pick and pop? Why not set 2 of our 7 footers at the elbows and run kapono or parker off double screens to free up jumpers? Plays like this is what RIP lived for with Chauncey running the show in Detroit, and where he's made his living. Catch and shoots like that will put them in rhythm and they'll make more than they miss, I guarantee it [when I play, I've built my game and modeled it after RIP, deadly from range and fills the lanes attacking the basket]. Why not? Cuz Sam isn't an x's and o's guy. Not everyone is built to break down someone one-on-one, but it doesn't mean they don't belong on the court.

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Originally posted by slingshot Kapono is one of the best, if not the best shooter in the nba....

I am soooooooooooo sick of people saying this. Fack!!!!!!

Kapono will never be a starter in the NBA because he is not big enough, not fast enough, nor athletic enough to defend any opposing starter.

As a second string guy he is being overpaid.

There are probably lots of guys out there that can defend with slightly lower shooting percentages.

It is time for him to go. Think about it. Honestly.

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