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-- Trentemøller- an example of pure talent!!!!
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quote:

Originally posted by elFreak woooosh. the point is i am not sitting here telling you it is better than anything, simply my taste. You are the the one making the this music is shit argument.

Yeah, it's not like you're dismissive or condescending of fans of epic trance on a regular basis or anything, is it?

The point which you "woooshed" over is that you act like you listen to verifiably good music and other people listen to shit music on a regular basis. Dropping that and suddenly being all humble "at the end of the day it's just a matter of opinion" to suit your argument is just going to smack of hypocrisy. And don't wheel out that bullshit about trolling, because you quite obviously believe in what you say when you slate trance, and the fact you do it for a rise is incidental.

i do slate trance for a rise, the funny part is i am willing to bet i have BOUGHT more of it in the 15 years i have been buying records than most of the mp3 kids on here.

music discussion takes itself too seriously here, and everyone in the "circle jerk clic" has played on it from day one, even though simple post searching of the members in question will prove that they all gave trance a lot of creedence in the past.

the running joke has been to apply the method used by those who listen to only trance, the same exact thing they are doing in a different way.

(ie : pretending that what we listen to is the best.)

none of us really care what people think, and this is why the trolling of you guys ad nauseum has been so successful. Today just happens to be a day i am bored and making this argument in consequence.

"let he who cast the first stone..."

you guys are all guilty of the same shit us "trolls", "elitists","circle jerkers"...get accused of being, the only difference is that you take yourselves too seriously to realize the epic piss that we are taking.

quote:

Originally posted by Trance-MB You could say this about all other genres too. Music is music. Whether it is good depends on how a group of people agrees to judge that...

hmm


not really


for popular music, yes

not classical indian ragas

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak none of us really care what people think, and this is why the trolling of you guys ad nauseum has been so successful. Today just happens to be a day i am bored and making this argument in consequence. "let he who cast the first stone..." you guys are all guilty of the same shit us "trolls", "elitists","circle jerkers"...get accused of being, the only difference is that you take yourselves too seriously to realize the epic piss that we are taking.

I don't know why the fuck you're saying "you" as if I've ever been one of those people. I usually get thrown into the "elitist haters" crowd, actually.

Saying "It's all just a matter of taste" is pretty much bullshit anyway. It's the kind of argument Harry Potter kids make to try and say their favourite books are just as good as Joyce. There's always a critical framework that exists for a reason and if you want to disregard part or all of it you'd better have a good reason. Resorting back to the safe-zone of taste is usually the tactic of those with poor taste.

i meant you as in you take yourself too seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak what makes one music good and the other not good? if you can answer this and back it up with absolute proof you win the internet. you do not have to agree, the world does not revolve around your tastes.

What makes one music good and the other not good? Do you want to compare the music featured in your sets with a typical Blue Amazon track as featured in System-J's sets? Well, Blue Amazon have complex layered tracks with specific melodies, chords and pads (wow! music with melody and chords!), nicely engineered effects and samples which fit with the track as a whole, driving rhtyhms which seem to go somewhere rather than just being there, and an overall high level of both musicianship and production.


Typical Black Sun Machine track? Random disturbing glitches, out of place funkless rhythms, complete lack of melody and musicianship and hence zero emotion, and overall cheap level of production which is promoted as "cool" and "avantgarde". Shit is promoted as the new gold. I always wandered why one has to pay for those tracks. How is to pay and download all those tracks on beatport, week by week month after month? You probably end-up with a hard-drive full of countless, low-musical-quality mp3s with zero value (musical or as a medium) which just take some space in a hard-drive.Why not make it yourself? Ten tracks at FL a week. Easy, dirty and fast(and cheap!). No musical knowledge is needed, only some basic production skills.

Why they are not gonna be remembered? According to cognitive psychology,the degree of a memory trace's strength depends on some specific experiential features of the (in that case)auditory episode, such as strength of emotional reaction, distinctiveness, novelty, saliency,specificity and elaboration, as well as primacy and recency(what is perceived/encoded as coming first and what is perceived/encoded as coming last, plus a few others)

What does this music contain? None of these features whatsoever. This music is not meant to be emotional, each of these minimal tracks are not distinctive and can't be seperated from each other, there is nothing to make them stand-out from the rest and hence make them salient, a specific recognisable and elaborate musical form is absent and well, you can find some novel things such as weird disturbing samples which can cotnribute to a negative memory trace (if such a thing exists!). Why this music will be forgotten? Because its not of high quality and guess what, quality (as translated in the features i desrcibed-complexity and level of musicianship)) correlates with the experiential impression and the cognitive factors i described before and experiential impression and the cognitive factors i described before correlate with memory (strength).


Blue Amazon share some of these features and hence are remembered (we don't care about the number of people rememberering them or the fact that they don't sell at all, they are still remembered. Beethoven is the most famous musician in the world but the latest album of Madonna had probably multiple sales in comparison to the total Beethoven albums as sold by Deutsche Grammophon during 2008). Underworld share these features and also have the advantage of "primacy", that is, they are perceived as some of the first EDM pioneers, thats why they are usually even more remembered, more so than Blue Amazon (and we are always talking about intra-EDM comparisons not EDM with other genres of music).

One Night Stand Music. This is how i call it. Forgettable cheap mindless tracks which are made by the bucketload, played in some random night pleasing some random drunk clubber only to be replaced by a similar random track the month after.



Will Samim, Dahlback,Radio Slave or Deadmau5 be remembered? Hell no. Maybe people will hopefully remember the dark medieval "minimal" times of EDM during the 00s. Will Orbital, Underworld and Leftfield be remembered? Hell Yeah. You probably have figured out why by now. Its common sense but yeah.


Why am i writing all these? Because i can't stand anymore f*cking Radio Slave, Deadmau5, Samim's or whoever ****buttler's (picked that from the CoR thanks!) poitnless music. I can't stand the fact that good music is overlooked (as Sljiva stated). I hate the fact that because of this shity EDM state we are in, good music has a lower chance to be produced.

Apparently you've been trolling me ad nauseum. Remind me of that.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec This is my main complaint with things like epic trance, prog and a lot of deep house. it looks, sounds, and smells like music, but it's not really.

Just a little rough, don't you think?

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid Just a little rough, don't you think?

not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol




anyways i don't think that it makes it necessarily bad, it just makes it necessarily different. it can still get you off just like a cheap hooker can get you off as well as a true lover.


I actually love the anonymity and ephemerality of the 'one night stand' dance music because when I go to a nightclub to dance, I like to be inundated with rhythms and tones and textures that are unique to that night and moment. this allows me to become lost and to lose the ego and concentrate on the dance.

it's not about the music itself, it's about what event. this is beautiful in itself. it's more like african drumming in that regard than like an opera...

if i went out every saturday to hear some great work of music that i can listen to at home then it wouldn't be nearly the same thing to me. this is why parties are not concerts (in my opinion)

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol anyways i don't think that it makes it necessarily bad, it just makes it necessarily different. it can still get you off just like a cheap hooker can get you off as well as a true lover. I actually love the anonymity and ephemerality of the 'one night stand' dance music because when I go to a nightclub to dance, I like to be inundated with rhythms and tones and textures that are unique to that night and moment. this allows me to become lost and to lose the ego and concentrate on the dance. it's not about the music itself, it's about what event. this is beautiful in itself. it's more like african drumming in that regard than like an opera... if i went out every saturday to hear some great work of music that i can listen to at home then it wouldn't be nearly the same thing to me. this is why parties are not concerts (in my opinion)

This is exactly what i think thank you. Parties are not concepts and this modern one-night-stand cheap-minimal-techno state we are in is SOMETHING like music(IMO its not music but i wouldn't like to be called an extremist). Problem is, that not all EDM is bloody one-night-stand music. And to get a bit cheesy. Problem is that due to this "one-night-stand" music people have forgot the touch of a true lover. Problem is that these fast one-night-stands decrease the chance of finding true love.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Problem is that due to this "one-night-stand" music people have forgot the touch of a true lover. Problem is that these fast one-night-stands decrease the chance of finding true love.

did you read that sufi inayat khan quote i posted?

he says the same thing. so true.

quote:

In India musicians are now dying out because of lack of appreciation. Those potentates, those Gurus, those teachers of high inspiration who lived in the past, appreciated this music. But even in India people are becoming industrialized and more materialistic, and music is dying. There are very few now of those musicians of former times who would make all those who listened spellbound; they hardly exist any longer. Among millions there are perhaps three or four and they will have vanished in a few years. Maybe one day the Western world will awaken to India's music as now the West is awakening to the poetry of the East, and beginning to appreciate such works as those of Rabindranath Tagore. There will come a time when they will ask for music of that kind too, and then it will not be found, it will be too late. But there is no doubt that if that music, which is magic and which is built on a psychological basis is introduced in the West, it will root out all such things as jazz. People seem to spoil their senses. This music is destroying their delicacy of sense. Thousands every day are dancing to jazz music and they forget the effect it has upon their spirit, upon their mind, upon their delicate senses. There was a prince of Rampur who wanted to study music with a great teacher. But the teacher knew the character of the prince who was fond of music, and he understood that many musicians would want to show their talents before him. He said, 'I can only teach you on one condition: I do not want to hear any musician who is not an accomplished artist, because your sense of music must not be destroyed; it must be preserved for delicate music, it must be able to appreciate the fine intricacies.' When the education of the public destroys the delicacy of its musical appreciation, it cannot help the fact that it does not like listening to real music but prefers jazz. Instead of going forward, it is going backward. And if music which is the central theme of the whole human culture is not helping people to go forward, it is a great pity.

edit - also i always quote this from 'der steppenwolf' by hesse

quote:

Music does not depend on being right, on having good taste and education and all that. Then what does it depend on?/On making music, Herr Haller, on making music as well and as much as possible, and with all the intensity of which one is capable. That is the point, Monsieur. Though I carried the complete works of Bach and Haydn in my head and could say the cleverest things about them, not a soul would be the better for it. But when I take hold of my mouthpiece and play a lively shimmy, whether the shimmy be good or bad, it will give people pleasure. It gets into their legs and into their blood. That's the point and that alone. Look at the faces in a dance hall at the moment when the music strikes up after a longish pause, how eyes sparkle, legs twitch and faces begin to laugh. That is why one makes music.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec not really. i would never pretend to use the same word to describe sascha dive that i use for mozart. i mean, let's just be honest with ourselves lol ...

Yes but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's still music. I agree mostly with what you just said but I don't think it's fair for anyone to dictate what is music and what is noise.

i never called it 'noise' lol.

let me put it this way:

there is 'music' and there is 'Music' (capital M)

i think everyone instinctively knows the difference. i don't have to dictate anything. but if you think that the timewriter and debussy are doing the same thing, i think you're deluded


you know you can say the same thing in many fields.

there is capital A 'Architecture' being made by people like Le Corbusier, Peter Zumthor, Luis Barragan, etc

then there is 'architecture' that you find in supermarket books of single-family house plans


as SYSTEM-J said earlier, there is a critical framework or a tradition of mastery in one and not the other.

I'd say the reason for dance music being so disposable is the fact that tracks are made as tools for the most part. Tools to be used at the DJ's discretion to allow them to create an atmosphere or soundscape. That's not to say that there aren't tracks that have a very timeless quality to them, it's just that dance music is designed with a different purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by enydo I'd say the reason for dance music being so disposable is the fact that tracks are made as tools for the most part. Tools to be used at the DJ's discretion to allow them to create an atmosphere or soundscape. That's not to say that there aren't tracks that have a very timeless quality to them, it's just that dance music is designed with a different purpose.

I agree. I always say that dance music should be considered seperate- it shouldn't be lumped into "pop" like it usually is, because it operates in a way unique to itself. In most dance records, there are several minutes you aren't supposed to hear, or are supposed to hear combined with another record. The tempo is designed to be fucked with. The context of the musical interaction and the rules and boundaries of that interaction are different to normal music.

In this respect I disagree with nefardec because I think dance music has a critical framework of its own. Catalogue houses still need to be built in a certain way even if the rulebook is different to capital A Architecture. An airport thriller novel still has a rulebook even if it's different to the critical framework around a novel like Finnegan's Wake. I think there is a framework to dance music that is there to be agreed, disagreed and debated. It's very different to more sophisticated music but it doesn't mean we should surrender our quality control or the notion that there are good and bad things you can do with it. If a dance record is out of key with itself, it's an out of key record. And that's bad. It sounds wrong. The fact dance music is primarily disposable and the fact that music is ultimately subjective doesn't alter that.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I agree. I always say that dance music should be considered seperate- it shouldn't be lumped into "pop" like it usually is, because it operates in a way unique to itself. In most dance records, there are several minutes you aren't supposed to hear, or are supposed to hear combined with another record. The tempo is designed to be fucked with. The context of the musical interaction and the rules and boundaries of that interaction are different to normal music.

Hey J,

I think the perspective that most of Dance music is disposable has a simpler explanation than the one you are providing (if that is what you were attempting to focus on).

Although I agree that Dance music operates relative to some premises that are more or less exclusive to itself, I think the fact remains that the larger percentage of Dance music is produced with the intent of simply being non-substantive fun, rather than being the type of deliberate tools that endyo is describing.

I think the determination of 'disposable' status is pretty intuitive to both seasoned and casual listeners of Dance music. It just has that sound of not being terribly concerned with matters of aesthetics and atmosphere, being oriented towards living up to its "Dance Music" ascription in the most basic and fundamental way.

Although this 'Ultimate Dance Hits' variety of Dance music isn't the type of music that seems to be generally discussed and listened to by people on this forum, in terms of sheer numbers, I have a strong feeling it's the most common...though I have no evidence to support this, leaving this argument to be essentially speculative

quote:

Originally posted by Paradox Lost I think the perspective that most of Dance music is disposable has a simpler explanation than the one you are providing (if that is what you were attempting to focus on).

I wasn't. I have an even more simple explanation for why dance music is disposable- it's focused almost entirely around the format of the single. Singles don't sell very well- most vinyl singles only sell to DJs or collectors. Result: singles go out of print quickly, and the music is kept alive only through compilations or artist albums. Since the artist album is relatively rare in dance music it's down to the compilation to immortalise the music. The fact dance music is built around smaller labels means things sell even less, go out of print even more quickly and compilations are heard by few people. There's also only so many tracks that can make it onto compilations. The result is a vast collection of music that goes out of print within months and a large number of compilations few people buy. Most of it gets forgotten.

This nature is primarily due to the logistics of the industry and the medium of the DJ set. I argue that it should not be etched into the ethos of the music itself. Any producer who writes a track as though it's a flash in the pan mayfly of a record is a bad producer for me. This mindset is why we see crap, lazy records with no effort put into them. Dance music should fight even harder because of this temporal nature, not readily acquiesce to it. Every record I genuinely love sounds like it was made with devotion and effort, oblivious to how long it might survive. I'd argue that almost all classic dance records have that feeling. The swathes of music written to be forgotten will be forgotten.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I wasn't.

I also think I somewhat misunderstood endyo's post.

That was time well spent.

Jesus, Moan is great track.

when i hear a trance track, i remember the melody if it's an awesome song, so i don't feel it's disposable because if the track is good (i don't like most trance these days, but i will say that songs for the genre are very good, and I do feel dance music is very good ) I'll remember it.

when i hear a tech-minimal-(whatever that sound is called these days) track, I just hear 808 stuff all over the place. AND I LOVE IT.

That said , some tracks that seem like it's all 808 and bloops and bleeps (whatever that sound is called, i don't know my genres sue me) are very memorable. Ellen Allien has very memorable ,songs imo. to me she seems to make what seems to be disposable, meaningless, very memorable.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec i never called it 'noise' lol.

well if it isn't music then what is it?

I see where you're coming from, but I do like System J's take on the matter more. Dance music was never made to be a work of art, a masterpiece. That doesn't take away from the fact that many producers out there work countless hours on that one track only for it to be forgotten weeks later. Dance music is made to have it's moment on the dance floor and aid to night out to whoever is there enjoying it. I don't think it's even fair to compare Daft Punk to Beethoven, yet the former is much more dear to me. Why? I don't know, I might be delusional.

quote:

Originally posted by wotyzoid well if it isn't music then what is it? I see where you're coming from, but I do like System J's take on the matter more. Dance music was never made to be a work of art, a masterpiece. That doesn't take away from the fact that many producers out there work countless hours on that one track only for it to be forgotten weeks later. Dance music is made to have it's moment on the dance floor and aid to night out to whoever is there enjoying it. I don't think it's even fair to compare Daft Punk to Beethoven, yet the former is much more dear to me. Why? I don't know, I might be delusional.

?

that's precisely what I said...

you're misunderstanding me here. there's absolutely nothing wrong with liking daft punk over beethoven, it's just important to realize one is not like the other

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec ? that's precisely what I said... you're misunderstanding me here. there's absolutely nothing wrong with liking daft punk over beethoven, it's just important to realize one is not like the other

Oh, sorry. I though you meant that Music was somehow superior to music even though they are two completely different concepts.

I'm tired.

Dance music is disposable mostly because it's dance music. Gebrauchsmusik, music made for some external purpose -- dancing -- rather than solely for its own sake. When people's dancing days are over, they largely forget about it.

Rock used to be like this, too, until it started having artistic pretensions in the '60s. Same thing with hip-hop and the '80s. In their beginning phases, they were both just throwaway soundtracks to dance parties for the kids, not self-conscious "art forms" pontificated about by aging critics with beards and glasses. Maybe dance music will one day enter the Bearded, Bespectacled Critic Phase one day. Maybe it already has...

The Ramones

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