TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- creationism making a comeback in texas
Pages (9): « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 »

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Strangely, the more I learned about the great faiths and other non-theistic philosophies the more similarities I found between them all and the more truth I found in those things that were consistent across them, which ultimately resulted in a rather deep and profound faith. That said, I still continue to actively challenge my faith.

Nice...... I am finding that out as even we read this thread. I was raised strict Calvinist baptist. but once I moved on after 17 and started to experience the world outside the box the my child hood faith sat me in, I started to realize that the all the world's faith no matter how small or large, taught a core "vibe". This core "vibe" is what gave me comfort as a child in the belief that there was a higher state to look forward to. Plus I think that its one's own body that holds the key, thats why I have started to learn and practice meditation....ever since I started getting into it seriously last year, my life has started to be so much easier and oddly, healthier...

just my 2-cents

You'll find little disagreement from me, Moral. It was never my intent to establish some causal link between individual corruption and religion - it's simply not there in the pages, it doesn't exist. Religion is a tool like any other though - one that can be used to aid some and harm others - and its faults have almost always lied in its adherents. But there is no doubt that, as a supremely social factor, it is an empowering concept, to know that one is right only out of an appeal to some omnipresent authority, and I see all too often people also succumbing to (any) doctrine out of fear or ignorance, even curiosity or the will to make oneself a "better person" by some standard. True, you could argue that true faith is based on generosity and compassion and whatnot, but can you earnestly say this applies in the majority of cases? In light of the ideal, that love and acceptance are the standard by which religion is known for? Yes, the fault in execution hinges solely upon a fallible creature - man - and this is of course compensated for by parable and compassion, but what standard do we have for fallibility? What keeps us from being perfect, from being free to love whomever we want as your God would seemingly have us do? His design, it would seem.

And if this solution is what we have been conceding to all along - that man would be just as corrupt, just as voracious were it not for the presence of religion, then truly: what good has it done us? If we are no better nor more worse off - if it is entirely possible for me to lead a virtuous and fulfilling life without the notion of some omniscient Santa Clause judging me by decidedly human (and decidedly outdated) rules, then what place has God made for himself in our world? It would appear to me as though religion is nothing but a tool, given value only by human beings - a weapon in the hands of those who will it as such, and a handkerchief for all of the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard (truth is always found in commonalities)

I thoroughly disagree, and not merely based on your use of "always".

"Truth", should there even exist one, may very well be imagined by the faculty of commonality - but once more, this serves a base, social purpose. There is no "love", no "god", exchanged when two people agree with one another. If we are to believe that man is an animal, created by a God or not, then we must accept the fact people are social merely out of the imperative to survive; and that survival is best achieved in banding together. But "survival" could mean a great deal of things, now couldn't it? Unless you meant that truth is "created" by commonality... which I shall deign true by agreeing with you in such a case.

Unless, of course, you take the route that God is the force behind all actions - base or noble by any human standard. Which I *know* you're going to take because you're a bastard like that!

quote:

No, no, I knew exactly what you meant... I only objected to the use of the word "always" because I am too optimistic to concede that this will never change... I prefer to think humanity will progress beyond that... of course this is improbable but if we resign ourselves to believe that this is a condition that cannot be changed then the incentive to try is reduced; and there is simply too much to be gained by the attempt to allow that opportunity to pass due to apathy.

Funny we were viewing the word in so seperate of ways - I did not mean to imply at all that man "shall always" follow this course. I am with you that there is still a shred of hope that we may yet conquer our reptilian natures in exchange for a more stable and free world (though we no doubt have differing ideas on how this should be achieved ). Perhaps I would have done better to phrase it, "beliefs have guided almost all violence thusfar"?

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On And if this solution is what we have been conceding to all along - that man would be just as corrupt, just as voracious were it not for the presence of religion, then truly: what good has it done us?

I would suggest to you that the benefit of religion is that which the adherent receives (in this world; presuming there is another). While there are great benefits to humanity realized through the great faiths (the social welfare system they bring with them perhaps being the greatest example), it is the adherent of a faith that principally benefits from it. Of course this benefit varies from individual to individual but if there were no benefit no one would adhere (human nature being as it is). In order to gauge the benefit of religion to humanity you would need to look at all that has been done by people of faith living their faith to benefit humanity.... I simply don't have the time to do this; however, I suspect that the benefit is substantial... more importantly for me; the benefit to me is substantial and that's really where one needs to evaluate the worth of a thing.

quote:

If we are no better nor more worse off - if it is entirely possible for me to lead a virtuous and fulfilling life without the notion of some omniscient Santa Clause judging me by decidedly human (and decidedly outdated) rules, then what place has God made for himself in our world?

It is entirely possible for you to lead a virtuous and fulfilling life without faith.... it may not be as full as mine but it may be full enough for you. I think your question about what place God has made for himself in our world is utterly flawed as it is entirely based on the assumption that God has sought to do this, which I do not believe to be the case; rather, I would suggest to you that God has made room for us in his world.

quote:

It would appear to me as though religion is nothing but a tool, given value only by human beings - a weapon in the hands of those who will it as such, and a handkerchief for all of the rest.

Absolutely it's a tool... all systems of thought and/or belief are; however, I wouldn't write it off as a handkerchief (as I'm sure you would expect).

quote:

I thoroughly disagree, and not merely based on your use of "always". "Truth", should there even exist one, may very well be imagined by the faculty of commonality - but once more, this serves a base, social purpose. There is no "love", no "god", exchanged when two people agree with one another. If we are to believe that man is an animal, created by a God or not, then we must accept the fact people are social merely out of the imperative to survive; and that survival is best achieved in banding together. But "survival" could mean a great deal of things, now couldn't it? Unless you meant that truth is "created" by commonality... which I shall deign true by agreeing with you in such a case.

Truth must exist because to state there is no truth is a logical fallacy. The reason I belief one can find truth in the commonalities (granted the use of the word always was an error on my part) is because it is unreasonable to conclude that there is no truth to all belief/thought systems; thus, where these systems converge that is where one will most likely find truth. That said, I would also agree that what most perceive as truth is formed by consensus which may or may not be factually accurate and objectively true.

quote:

Unless, of course, you take the route that God is the force behind all actions - base or noble by any human standard. Which I *know* you're going to take because you're a bastard like that!

Actually, I've long since struggled with this very idea and I've concluded that God more or less let's us do what we will (with the odd spectacular intervention like hordes of locusts and killing Egyptians here and there). You may not actually be interested but I feel I should share why I believe this (but I'll spare you all the complex thought and years of mental wrestling that went into this). My belief starts with the belief that god is everything and everything is a part thereof that the reason for creation (all creation) was to allow for the development of free thinking independent creatures that would be individual and separate from God that would be able to observe creation from the inside and decide for themselves whether or not they wish to love god... which is to say love et al. Since this is my belief I cannot accept that God would be the motivation behind all actions, as this would undermine the entire reason for creation.

FYI, even if I did believe that God was the force behind all actions I would never raise it in a discussion such as this because it is a position that cannot be defended though any reasoning that is not entirely based on Christian dogma (or if it can said reasoning is too complex for me to rationalize); subsequently, it would kill discussion rather then foster it.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would suggest to you that the benefit of religion is that which the adherent receives (in this world; presuming there is another). While there are great benefits to humanity realized through the great faiths (the social welfare system they bring with them perhaps being the greatest example), it is the adherent of a faith that principally benefits from it. Of course this benefit varies from individual to individual but if there were no benefit no one would adhere (human nature being as it is). In order to gauge the benefit of religion to humanity you would need to look at all that has been done by people of faith living their faith to benefit humanity.... I simply don't have the time to do this; however, I suspect that the benefit is substantial... more importantly for me; the benefit to me is substantial and that's really where one needs to evaluate the worth of a thing.

Right, feels good, helps people cope, therefore its value is confirmed by individuals. The same could be said of Teddy bears though... why aren't people at one another's throats over whose Teddy bear is more comforting than the next?

Indeed, value is determined by individual benefit... but would you say this is consistent throughout the course of a person's faith, or merely in the beginning? When you transmit a meme, it has to be tasty, otherwise people simply will not swallow it. Once more, the same could be said of any philosophy or ideolgy, and of course tastes in what is "truthful" will differ - you and I are fine examples of this. Benefit, it would seem, is the primary survival mechanism of any dogma. Would you say that personal gain is at the heart of the rest of Christian philosophy as well?

quote:

It is entirely possible for you to lead a virtuous and fulfilling life without faith.... it may not be as full as mine but it may be full enough for you.

Oh dear, pride and vanity, too!

quote:

I think your question about what place God has made for himself in our world is utterly flawed as it is entirely based on the assumption that God has sought to do this, which I do not believe to be the case; rather, I would suggest to you that God has made room for us in his world.

What makes your assumption any more substantial than mine though? We're not distant relatives who have been crashing at His place for a few million years... He created us, according to you. If God did not seek to do this, then what could possibly lead you to believe in the soundness of the rest of your philosophy? I do not love pieces of skin and debris that cling to me; though I created them, I did not seek to do as such, but I've inadvertently made room for them regardless.

quote:

Truth must exist because to state there is no truth is a logical fallacy.

Hence the quotation marks around the word. Sure it is logical that there is a single truth to just about everything, but I am sure that you can agree mankind is not always positioned to discern such a thing.

quote:

The reason I belief one can find truth in the commonalities (granted the use of the word always was an error on my part) is because it is unreasonable to conclude that there is no truth to all belief/thought systems; thus, where these systems converge that is where one will most likely find truth. That said, I would also agree that what most perceive as truth is formed by consensus which may or may not be factually accurate and objectively true.

Well my aim was never to establish that religious systems are completely void of any truth. Have they been a necessary instrument to our survival though? I don't think any one person is in a credible position to say.

quote:

Actually, I've long since struggled with this very idea and I've concluded that God more or less let's us do what we will (with the odd spectacular intervention like hordes of locusts and killing Egyptians here and there). You may not actually be interested but I feel I should share why I believe this (but I'll spare you all the complex thought and years of mental wrestling that went into this). My belief starts with the belief that god is everything and everything is a part thereof that the reason for creation (all creation) was to allow for the development of free thinking independent creatures that would be individual and separate from God that would be able to observe creation from the inside and decide for themselves whether or not they wish to love god... which is to say love et al. Since this is my belief I cannot accept that God would be the motivation behind all actions, as this would undermine the entire reason for creation. FYI, even if I did believe that God was the force behind all actions I would never raise it in a discussion such as this because it is a position that cannot be defended though any reasoning that is not entirely based on Christian dogma (or if it can said reasoning is too complex for me to rationalize); subsequently, it would kill discussion rather then foster it.

Nono, I find it interesting. Make no mistake, we have progressed quite beyond the realm of reasonable debate and are now just plucking at beliefs.

Fuck, have to finish this later. Stupid work.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Indeed, value is determined by individual benefit... but would you say this is consistent throughout the course of a person's faith, or merely in the beginning?

I would suspect and have experienced that the benefits change overtime; however, as long as there are benefits and those benefits will be how one principally assesses the value of their faith.

quote:

Benefit, it would seem, is the primary survival mechanism of any dogma. Would you say that personal gain is at the heart of the rest of Christian philosophy as well?

No, I would not say that personal gain is at the heart of Christian philosophy; rather, people who adhere to said philosophy... any philosophy... do so because they perceive a benefit is gleaned by doing so.

quote:

Hence the quotation marks around the word. Sure it is logical that there is a single truth to just about everything, but I am sure that you can agree mankind is not always positioned to discern such a thing.

While I agree I don't believe that this is reason to abandon the search for same.

It's not really "faith" if there is a direct benefit though... that's called incentive.

It's both.

There is an incentive in having faith in God.

If it's incentive though, then you have faith due to the incentive... not because you feel you are really risking anything whatsoever by submitting to a belief system, but because you know that, whatever happens, you'll benefit.

I wonder, were the world suddenly devoid of faith, and there as no longer any immediate incentive, social or otherwise, to hold your Catholic God - would your faith go along with it?

Somebody else answer for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On If it's incentive though, then you have faith due to the incentive... not because you feel you are really risking anything whatsoever by submitting to a belief system, but because you know that, whatever happens, you'll benefit. I wonder, were the world suddenly devoid of faith, and there as no longer any immediate incentive, social or otherwise, to hold your Catholic God - would your faith go along with it? Somebody else answer for him.

Incentive has always existed, but my faith personally strengthened as a result of personal experience after I made the conscious decision to stop being religious... so I would argue that faith is not entirely dependent on incentive; and in fact, that "pure" faith is separable from any material incentive.

I don't believe in God because I think I'll go to heaven (though I realize I may have conveyed that earlier) - I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

you believe god is a he-she?

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Agreed; partially... adherents of religions are often guilty of the exact same thing; however, none of the great religions (I'll stick to the great religions because I know them, I cannot speak to what one little tribe in the deep forests of New Guinea believes) flat out vilify outsiders... even Islam despite the celebrated Qu'ranic verses referring to killing the infidels. Sure there are sects full of nuts who do exactly what you say; however, criticism of same must be directed at said sect not the over-riding belief system (as these sects are, generally, at odds with the core values of the religion they claim to be a part of... the "God hates fags" people are a good example of this).

I struggle to agree here because, at least in the case of Islam, some of the very core beliefs are oppressive.

No, not every Muslim beheads his wife like the TV station owner from upstate New York but its intimidating to see countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia actively trying to impose elements of Sharia Law in the UN, and equally troubling to see the issues countries like The Netherlands are dealing with: growing sects of vocal extremists. I'm sure you're all familiar with whats happened there. Geert Wilders is a prominent outspoken person on this issue.

Its obviously a less troubling issue in the United States but we have a slew of our own issues. Nevertheless, the influence exists. I work with two moderate westernized Muslims. They drink, one smokes weed, they work during prayer. It would obviously be ignorant of me to make sweeping generalizations (more so than I seemingly already have) however both hold particularly controversial beliefs. One denies the holocaust happened and believes the Jews run the world in a very conspiratorial way. The other is a bit quieter but was just out of work for a few days because he beat up his wife. She was afraid to press charges because she didn't want him to lose his job. I doubt they wish unspeakable anguish upon me just because I'm not Muslim but they're acts are justified by their holy book. Another interesting example of picking and choosing what to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov so I would argue that faith is not entirely dependent on incentive; and in fact, that "pure" faith is separable from any material incentive.

It's an interesting question, that's for sure - if faith without any incentive is even possible. I believe I asked Moral once and his answer was actually the opposite of yours, but my recollection is a tad hazy.

quote:

I don't believe in God because I think I'll go to heaven (though I realize I may have conveyed that earlier) - I just believe in God because I think he/she exists.

Then our beliefs are almost the same in this respect. But why believe? Do you have to believe in the sky? It's just sort of there. But can you point to it? Where does it end?! God seems the same way to me - but I do not need faith to recognize that all of this something came from nothing at some point; faith is irrelevant in this respect, and God's existence, as an "actual" entity or merely a phantom of people's minds, is apodeictic - my faith shall have no sway.

quote:

Originally posted by D-res I struggle to agree here because, at least in the case of Islam, some of the very core beliefs are oppressive.

All core beliefs are oppressive - that is their nature. When you create a rule - a law - you are explicitly prohibiting an expressed action or behaviour. I mean, when you outlaw rape, how the fuck do you expect rapists to eat???

Does some of the strict Islamic law exacted in foreign countries seem oppressive in our kitschy, Western sense of freedom and justice and motals and whatever the fuck else? You bet. But what justifies ours, truly?

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I mean, when you outlaw rape, how the fuck do you expect rapists to eat???

hahhaha, awesome.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Does some of the strict Islamic law exacted in foreign countries seem oppressive in our kitschy, Western sense of freedom and justice and motals and whatever the fuck else? You bet. But what justifies ours, truly?

moral relativism is bollocks. ours are justified by reason not superstition, truly.

Are you so certain much of our cultural arbitration is not the product of superstition? Where do we get our concepts of justice? Of what is good and evil? Why is peace considered ideal?

I will most certainly agree that Islamic law is very "superstitious", but so is Christian law - but where is such a thing practiced, outside of Utah? I sure hope people in the Middle-Far East don't judge our values and laws by what goes on in Utah!

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Are you so certain much of our cultural arbitration is not the product of superstition? Where do we get our concepts of justice? Of what is good and evil? Why is peace considered ideal?

ugh, its too early for this shit! the enlightenment rejected religious influence in the public sphere, so no i dont believe our cultural arbitration is the product of superstition.

You're right, we're hyperstitious these days. We've traded ghosts and gods for bankers and doctors. I wonder if they shall be any more deserving of our faith...

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You're right, we're hyperstitious these days. We've traded ghosts and gods for bankers and doctors. I wonder if they shall be any more deserving of our faith...

Well, when bankers and doctors start expecting your undying worship whilst providing exactly nothing in return then you might have a point.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Then our beliefs are almost the same in this respect. But why believe? Do you have to believe in the sky? It's just sort of there. But can you point to it? Where does it end?! God seems the same way to me - but I do not need faith to recognize that all of this something came from nothing at some point; faith is irrelevant in this respect, and God's existence, as an "actual" entity or merely a phantom of people's minds, is apodeictic - my faith shall have no sway.

Well, the difference between God and the sky is that the senses can't directly perceive the former - that is where faith steps in.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Well, when bankers and doctors start expecting your undying worship whilst providing exactly nothing in return then you might have a point.

Haven't you been reading this thread? Humans demand undying worship while providing nothing in return - Religion has nothing to do with it!

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Well, the difference between God and the sky is that the senses can't directly perceive the former - that is where faith steps in.

You are now aware of the fact that you are breathing in God.

FFFFFFFFFFF-

//And you perceive the sky? Can you point me in the right direction then, please? I keep going up and up and all I reach is nothing!

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Haven't you been reading this thread? Humans demand undying worship while providing nothing in return - Religion has nothing to do with it!

doctors heal us, bankers make us rich (or poor as the case may be!). doctors are also forced to substantiate their work or their claims. i know you're being tongue in cheek but its not the same damned thing

Oh, I'm aware of that fact any time Jennypie passes gas.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN doctors heal us, bankers make us rich (or poor as the case may be!). doctors are also forced to substantiate their work or their claims. i know you're being tongue in cheek but its not the same damned thing

Religious leaders are forced to never lie as well. Do you trust their verification?

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Oh, I'm aware of that fact any time Jennypie passes gas.

But Jennypie never stops passing gas-

oh. Do ho.

I see.

You FIEND!

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.