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-- what it takes to produce... do i have the hard part down already?
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dont lie thats no ordinary 808 clap, that is THE standard fruity cp.wav .. ill never forget it

What makes some people excel?

I'd say attention to EVERY detail, and not everyone has this capacity.

For example there are about 100,000 chefs in the UK, but less than a 100 got a michelin star. Why is this, when they all can study the same recipies?

There is a ton of people that want to kake nusic but far less who will slog it for years striving for that perfect sound. My brother is just such a person - he will call me and say he's just laid down a banging tune, but after that he gets bored as he just wants it all made and done in a few hours. Im reality all he has done his a few modifications to some presets, added some basic fx and hey presto he expects a hit.

HONEST FEEDBACK

Here in the UK we have this TV show by Simon Cowell called the X Factor (in the US its American Idol) and everyone of the thousands of hopeful singers has this notion they can really sing, yet very few can.

So I ask myself how is it all these non singers think they have the x factor, and the simple truth is none of thier freinds or family have given them honest feedback.

Its the same with some forum types that tell everyone they love thier music, but this cant be true so I wonder why they do this because it gives the producer a false impression of thier talent level so they wont improve. Sure give constructive critiscism, but thats not the same as saying 'good work' to everyone when u know full well you would not pay to down load the tune.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Again, do you have any evidence that most producers use audio based PCs? No, Most producers, IE, most people who use cubase fl or ableton or what ever. Are bedroom musicians. Most of them have that dell or gateway pc that they use to game on and do other things. Your assumption that all, or even most, artist use gear specific for audio production is false. Propeller head didn't try to make a program for "other purposes" they tried to make a daw like FL or cubase, and they failed, they flat out, without a doubt, failed. They produced a crappy piece of shit program, with a graphical gimmick to pull people in. Reason is a toy, at best. Coupled with no VSTi support, crappy built in synths, and the ened to "rewire" it with another daw. Make it a failed DAW. The fl 3osc with the fl FX can produce anything reason could hope to muster. Its just... oh my god, reason fails. LMMS or modplug could produce better songs. Reason is to music production software, what the N-Gage was to successful handhelds. No where near it. Sure you listened to my music and thought it sucked, that sure means a lot when you are arguing with the artist. Of course you will think it blows. Which is why slapping your ePenis around in a debate is fail. @mystical ninja through the fractal used a sampled kick from sampleswap. and the clap was just a basic 808 or 909..i forgot. yeah the clap doesn't fit with the song, sadly I don't have the project files anymore, so I cannot fix it.

I never said most people use specific gear for audio production. Those who are serious about their music will most definitely upgrade their computers to the standard in the market today. Why? Because, it allows for more freedom to make music without having to freeze track, bounce to audio, everytime the cpu hit is high.
My evidence with that website was to show multicore in today's standard of 'DAW PCs' are essential, due to cpu hungry synths that are being marketed such as NI Massive, or Omnisphere.

Propellerhead failed with Reason? Tell that to Daniel Kandi, Robert Nickson, Hydroid, Groove Invaderz, etc... I could go on and on with names. And last I remember, your music made on FL sounds so much worse than those artists I mentioned. So, in truth, you fail. Just admit it. You have no skill at production & that's why you make up for your lack of skills with a big ego & ignorance.

stop turning this thread into a dick-slapping contest

quote:

Originally posted by Pjotr G stop turning this thread into a dick-slapping contest

10 pages too late

Has anyone ever considered that to use the argument " Well it is big and popular so it must be good" is essentially saying that Britney Spears and Cristina Aguilera are musical geniouses. Trance being extremely popular is not really a selling point unless you have a few too many frontal lobe lesions.

quote:

Originally posted by SGL I never said most people use specific gear for audio production. Those who are serious about their music will most definitely upgrade their computers to the standard in the market today. Why? Because, it allows for more freedom to make music without having to freeze track, bounce to audio, everytime the cpu hit is high. My evidence with that website was to show multicore in today's standard of 'DAW PCs' are essential, due to cpu hungry synths that are being marketed such as NI Massive, or Omnisphere. Propellerhead failed with Reason? Tell that to Daniel Kandi, Robert Nickson, Hydroid, Groove Invaderz, etc... I could go on and on with names. And last I remember, your music made on FL sounds so much worse than those artists I mentioned. So, in truth, you fail. Just admit it. You have no skill at production & that's why you make up for your lack of skills with a big ego & ignorance.

You, and those guys dream for the day they could produce at the caliber of the awesomsauce Sixofour Just admit it

@RichieV

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You are going to break their little hearts, they felt good using the logic "its popular so its quality".... poor poor diginut.

i think the popularity -> quality assumption not always incorrect. Good bands tend to be popular because people like them more. But the only problem is that alot of people on this planet are retards so sometimes , despite being very popular , things really suck.

tiesto------------------------: popular but sucky
mac---------------------------: popular but not sucky
Sebastien(house producer guy)-: not popular but not sucky
Kismet7-----------------------: not popular but sucky

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja No, I don't mean to imply that. Beethoven is very emotional.. Not that that song is THAT complex anyway is it? Moonlight Sonata also.. simple yet awesome. Bach probably would of sneered at it and stuck his nose in the air.. Maybe not. That's what I've heard anyway.

bach wouldn't of sneered. And as simple as you might think it is, I doubt you could play it let alone do a harmonic analysis of all the chords.

here are some examples of emotional and "complex" , some very, that will hopefully change your outlook. As a side note , i think using the word complex retarded. COmplexity involves so many parameters, form , harmony , performance .... ( these works are pretty popular so most of you will know them and since most of you don't know about form, i will just base the term complexity on surface details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTe6-kj5zRI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weEYNgeHyDA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT22...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYaG...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO6HltIxevU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km5PqCxW1zw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YPK...feature=related

but remember all the theoreticians did sneer at him for using the "forbidden parallel fifths", later he was known as the man who set music free from rules. He realized the model just reduced the music to rules and recipes.

So who will set Trance free?

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja but remember all the theoreticians did sneer at him for using the "forbidden parallel fifths", later he was known as the man who set music free from rules. He realized the model had become reduced to rules and recipes.

Hardly any composers followed all of the "rules" of their own day. Bach taught composition, but in his own works he didn't follow some of the "rules" that he taught. Mozart was originally called a "romantic" for favoring emotional expression over orderly composition, but today we call him "classical." Rules are just useful guidelines and learning tools, not absolutes.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir So who will set Trance free?

Post of the Thread.

So funny, next someone will need to set the SUN free, its not bright enough.

To cronodevir

You say that producing music isn't hard. And that we must be stupid to find it so. Maybe it isn't hard if you have been learning/ studying/ doing it for a long time. Knowing how to do something doesn't automatically make it easy. To use the athlete comparison earlier; if someone can break the world sprint record does that mean it is easy? Or is it hard to do but the athlete has practised for a long time?

Things that I am good at now were hard for me to learn. That doesn't make me think that the subject is easy. It means that the subject is easy to me.

quote:

Originally posted by xenos_declan Things that I am good at now were hard for me to learn. That doesn't make me think that the subject is easy. It means that the subject is easy to me.

Or, it doesn't make the subject hard. It makes it hard for me.

Anyways that isn't the point, the point is you do think a lot better when you just force yourself into a certain mindset. If you make yourself believe there is not hardship going on, then it is increasingly easier to get through that hardship. Without underestimating that hardship of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 next someone will need to set the SUN free, its not bright enough.

nooooooooo, what about global warming and the polar ice and the wild life there?

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja but remember all the theoreticians did sneer at him for using the "forbidden parallel fifths", later he was known as the man who set music free from rules. He realized the model just reduced the music to rules and recipes.

wrong again. Beethoven definately followed the parallel 5th rule. And that guideline has some pretty solid gestalt based psychology explaining why the practice isn't arbirary. He didn't set music free. He is still considered a classicist more than a romantic composer. He expanded on rules , broke a few but in no way threw everything out.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Or, it doesn't make the subject hard. It makes it hard for me.

Okay I think I see what you mean. What you're saying is that finding something hard doesn't make it hard and finding something easy doesn't make it easy?

quote:

Anyways that isn't the point, the point is you do think a lot better when you just force yourself into a certain mindset. If you make yourself believe there is not hardship going on, then it is increasingly easier to get through that hardship. Without underestimating that hardship of course.

So having the right attitude is important. We need to lessen the idea of something being too hard or maybe we wouldn't feel capable of starting to learn it. Sometimes the thought of doing something is worse than the event. But of course we have to be realistic.

I do believe I understand you now. To be honest some of your statements earlier we're a bit arrogant but I think what you're saying is get the attitude right and the rest will follow?

quote:

Beethoven definately followed the parallel 5th rule

Oh, Beethoven used lots of parallel and augmented Fifths, which were considered completely wrong at the time.

In his first movement from the 5th Symphony, Beethoven just keeps going over that phrase. It was just like writing a rock song. He found himself a great little hook. He was having fun kicking it around.

A famous anecdote is that Beethoven was showing off a violin piece to a friend of his and his friend pointed out that there were parallel perfect intervals in it, Beethoven said something like, "No! it's perfect!" then he went through and played it again and found the intervals. His friend said, "See?" Beethoven demands to know who has forbidden them, to which Ferdinand Ries responds: "Marburg, Kirnberger, Fuchs, etc., etc., all the theoreticians!" Beethoven then said, "And so I allow them."

Beethoven knows perfectly well who has forbidden parallel fifths and why. Beethoven is making a point by asking (repeatedly) who forbids parallel fifths: he wants it out front that it is the theoreticians, which is to say, those who, after the fact, derive rules from the models laid down by genius. And the point Beethoven is making is that because the theoreticians make the rules, he breaks the rules; their rules forbid fifths,so -therefore- he allows them. This is because of the Kantian notion of Genius.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja Oh, Beethoven used lots of parallel and augmented Fifths, which were considered completely wrong at the time. In his first movement from the 5th Symphony, Beethoven just keeps going over that phrase. It was just like writing a rock song. He found himself a great little hook. He was having fun kicking it around.

again you are mistaken. There might be a few by mistake which were probably corrected later by editors but you phrase it like he did it intentionally. He didn't. He ignored the parallel octave motion which is really something that grew out of orchestration having a voice doubled an octave higher.

And your mention to the 5th symphony. I am wondering if perhaps you are not quite sure what a parallel 5th is. It is not a phrase. It is a principle concerning voice leading. Would you be able to pinpoint the exact measure or if you dont' have a score, a youtube recording with the time it happens at.

And your mentioned to augment 5th ? There is no such interval so I am assuming you mean augmented 4rths and this has never been a rule remotely as vocal as the the parallel 5th motion. In fact i don't think it was ever a rule because most occurences would be from parallel diminished chords and that was just something people didn't do alot but it wasn't because it was a rule, just an aesthetic preference.

The only exception I can think of is a German 6 chord resolving to a V7 without using the V6/4 prior to avoid the 5th motion but again, i really can't think of any examples and i know his music very well. Well enough to know that it was never something he flaunted. He definately followed that rule 99.9 % of the time.

I think the problem is that people including yourself think he just threw all the rules out in defiance. This is a myth propagated by the uninformed. He broke some rules, most of them having to do with form , and expanded on current rules in a context that made it new but he was definitely a part of tradition. But concerning the basic rules you mentioned, he was definitely someone that abide by them almost all the time. When he didn't, there was almost always an aesthetical reason why.

quote:

Originally posted by xenos_declan Okay I think I see what you mean. What you're saying is that finding something hard doesn't make it hard and finding something easy doesn't make it easy? So having the right attitude is important. We need to lessen the idea of something being too hard or maybe we wouldn't feel capable of starting to learn it. Sometimes the thought of doing something is worse than the event. But of course we have to be realistic. I do believe I understand you now. To be honest some of your statements earlier we're a bit arrogant but I think what you're saying is get the attitude right and the rest will follow?

I'm nearly 300% sure that's what he has been trying to get across this whole time (in many more words!)

And it is completely true. People take confidence as an ego but it is a necessary evil to get anywhere in music.

People stress themselves out by looking at the big picture, especially in production. Instead, focusing on 30-40 tiny fragments will allow you many more mental victories to push you through your projects.

Make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV but you phrase it like he did it intentionally. He didn't.

In conversation with his musical friends, Beethoven took pleasure in ridiculing the strict precepts of the schools. When anyone ventured to point out infringements of them in his compositions, he used to cavalierly cast aside the small scrupulosities of his would-be censors. When in good humour on such occasions he would rub his hands, and exclaim, laughing heartily, "Oh yes, yes-- you are quite astonished, and at your wit's end, because you cannot find this in one of your treatises." "One day," says Ries, "when we were taking a walk together, I spoke of two consecutive fifths in one of his first sets of violin quartets, which produce a striking and beautiful effect. Beethoven did not recollect the passage, and would have it that there were no fifths in it. As he usually carried music paper in his pocket, I asked him for a bit, and wrote down the passge in four parts. Beethoven, seeing that I was right, said, 'Well, who has prohibited the use of fifths like these?" I was at a loss how to take the question. He repeated it several times, till at last I answered, greatly surprised at his putting it, 'Bless me, they are forbidden by the very fundamental rules of harmony!' Still he insisted on knowing by whom. I said, 'By Marpurg, Kirnberger, Fux, every theorist who has ever written on the subject.' 'Well,' cried Beethoven, 'they may have forbidden them, but I allow them!'"
To the end of his life Beethoven violated rules whenever he thought proper- especially if the progress of an idea was likely to be interfered with by a slavish adherence to some law of harmony.


True, he didn't just throw away the rules, in fact I read about how he frowned upon other composers who used the parallel fifths.

quote:

Originally posted by mfitterer1 I'm nearly 300% sure that's what he has been trying to get across this whole time (in many more words!) And it is completely true. People take confidence as an ego but it is a necessary evil to get anywhere in music.

I don't think confidence and ego are precisely the same thing. To me confidence is knowing you can do something but ego is more along the lines of boasting to people that you can do it. I'd prefer to be confident and quiet and then deliver the goods. If I'm good at something I don't need to run around telling people that I am, I just do it and let the results prove it.

quote:

People stress themselves out by looking at the big picture, especially in production. Instead, focusing on 30-40 tiny fragments will allow you many more mental victories to push you through your projects. Make sense?

This definitely makes sense. An entire task can be daunting. The first thing I do in any project be it music, design or just organising my house it to break it into the constituent parts.

You're right, confidence and ego are separate, to someone who has proven themselves. To someone who has not (no offense meant by this), like the dude that started this flame war, it keeps them going. I highly doubt he means to come off as pompous as it sounds. To me he knows a lot about music but doesn't know how to use it yet. Seems he is past the discovery stage but not yet into the action phase, so his posts seem to be a validation of the journey he is on, but not yet completed.

That's my take, and there's nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks.

There was a flame war?


/me looks around...

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