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-- creationism vs evolution
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Yeah, but the ironic thing you can delight in is that he actually doesn't fucking know. lllololllol

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Yeah, but the ironic thing you can delight in is that he actually doesn't fucking know. lllololllol

the great thing about science is that there can always be objections to a theory based on inconclusive evidence and it can be tried and tested again. There are some unknowns (as far as i know) on evolution.

The argument of convergent evolution of the eyes is the best one in my opinion, i remember learning about it in science class.

Protostomes (insects) and deuterostomes (vertebrates) embryos form mouth first then anus and anus first then mouth respectively.

So any traits you observe that are similar between two organisms of the different groupings will be convergent. For example eyes on a bug and eyes of a human. you would expect the coding for the eyes would be on seperate parts of the genome but instead they are found in a similar location.

This is perhaps a phenomenon that isnt understood yet as to why the gene expression is at the same location.

Yes, and I am really fucking glad there are people like you out there to help us find out why, BECAUSE I AM PRETTY FUCKING SURE A COSMIC WIZARD DIDN'T DO IT.

here is an overview of that article


it states that the common ancestor simply had the coding region but was not expressed.


http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/8/1555.full

still raises a couple of questions as the common ancestor between protostomes and deuterostomes were very primitive

this would have to be all the way back to bilateria which diverges to proto and deuterostomes

these creatures are very very primitive almost liek ameobas lol


heres a hypotheses that this unknown last common ancester may have had eyes which were lost in its decendents but recovered again once the divergence of the two clades occured (proto and deutero)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbilaterian#Eyes

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Yes, and I am really fucking glad there are people like you out there to help us find out why, BECAUSE I AM PRETTY FUCKING SURE A COSMIC WIZARD DIDN'T DO IT.

sure.. but again im not saying that a cosmic wizzard didnt do it. Im just saying that if HE did do it.. he did it through evolution. basically put things into motion lol.


This again is based on our preception of things. Evolution is the only logical explanation for the imperfection of organisms. (as we perceive it)

Once more though, from where are you drawing your basis for perfection? Killfuckdierepeat *is* as perfect as it gets - we've never known anything else. Yes, when we apply a close enough eye, things get all sorts of tangled and complex, but it is only our understanding that is imperfect - some ideas being more imperfect than others.

Ancestral convergence is really damned interesting though... makes you wonder just what is latent in human beings, what still lies utterly undiscovered yet right in front of our eyes.

(//damned disclaimer edit!)

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Once more though, from where are you drawing your basis for perfection? Killfuckdierepeat *is* as perfect as it gets - we've never known anything else. Yes, when we apply a close enough eye, things get all sorts of tangled and complex, but it is only our understanding that is imperfect - some ideas being more imperfect than others. Ancestral convergence is really damned interesting though... makes you wonder just what is latent in human beings, what still lies utterly undiscovered yet right in front of our eyes. (//damned disclaimer edit!)

when i say imperfect i mean organisms that are not perfectly suited for their environment.

sure whales are strealined creatures but shit, they have lungs and have to breath oxygen from air. Why the hell are sloths so slow?
etc etc etc.

this is what i mean about imperfection. you think a creator or intelligent designer would not oversee these facts.

Haha yeah, they wouldn't. Unless they were a total prankster... in which case I am having a hard time seeing why people believe anything matters.

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when i say imperfect i mean organisms that are not perfectly suited for their environment.

All things within the confinements of the universe or, in this case earth, you could argue are made in its image, and not particularly any image either - just what it becomes. (not referring to the gospel here either) I guess i could word it like this - each notion perfect and imperfect are merely ideas postulated by humans to help us understand the differences that exist, which im sure you know anyways. I think that we should simply see it as it is - ultimately things evolve in accordance to their own kind, subject to their environment, thus, they are as they will, by forces beyond their control, and forces encapsulated within the species own dynamics.

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you think a creator or intelligent designer would not oversee these facts.

It's not to deny the fact of evolution or creation, but that both coexist in a give or take manner again subject to the willfull intentions of that particular organism.

interesting conversation".

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Originally posted by Energy_3 All things within the confinements of the universe or, in this case earth, you could argue are made in its image, and not particularly any image either - just what it becomes. (not referring to the gospel here either) I guess i could word it like this - each notion perfect and imperfect are merely ideas postulated by humans to help us understand the differences that exist, which im sure you know anyways. I think that we should simply see it as it is - ultimately things evolve in accordance to their own kind, subject to their environment, thus, they are as they will, by forces beyond their control, and forces encapsulated within the species own dynamics. It's not to deny the fact of evolution or creation, but that both coexist in a give or take manner again subject to the willfull intentions of that particular organism. interesting conversation".

I think your thinking to deeply about it. When i say whales are a faulty design, i do not mean that they are faulty by natures standards. If you figure a land mammal ungullate (similar to a carnivorous hog/deer) would have decendents to live in the water (common whales) the design seems somewhat ridiculous from a creationist point of view (and by creationist i mean the creature simply created on the spot). Why would the design of a whale be used instead of a fish if the species were not capable of evolution.

here is the proposed model for evolution of a whale based on molecular evidence as well.




the direct lineage is probably not 100% obviously as lineages change from time to time but i believe there is molecular evidence to support the clade.

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When i say whales are a faulty design, i do not mean that they are faulty by natures standards. If you figure a land mammal ungullate (similar to a carnivorous hog/deer) would have decendents to live in the water (common whales) the design seems somewhat ridiculous from a creationist point of view (and by creationist i mean the creature simply created on the spot). Why would the design of a whale be used instead of a fish if the species were not capable of evolution.

But what standards are they faulty by? Man kinds point of view or evolutionary?

I agree, but you are here (above) speaking directly about the proposition of what evolution actually is, that it is subjected to change of course due to the various conditions that would bring about change. Perhaps I was looking at it to deeply but i'm simply making the point that things generally run the true course of their nature through direct and indirect contact with external/internal stimuli. I still find it hard to understand the direct link between evolution and imperfectionism and perfection.

From an outsiders point of view being us humans its easily done to discern ourselves with the relativism of what ought to be or not i guess.

the fact that a whale has to surface in order to breath oxygen from the air (it has lungs not gills like a fish)

This is an imperfection from a creation point of view, but from evolution it makes perfect sense due to the organism secondary evolution into the water (mammals initially evolved from water creatures)

kind of a ridiculous argument to use perfection and imperfection but just something to ponder i guess. Evolution is progression of an organism (wether its an improvement or not is subjective). Essentially its direction is guided by environmental factors (food habitat predators and competition). The best suited organisms survive.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit the fact that a whale has to surface in order to breath oxygen from the air (it has lungs not gills like a fish)

Indeed yeah i agree with you on this.

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This is an imperfection from a creation point of view, but from evolution it makes perfect sense due to the organism secondary evolution into the water (mammals initially evolved from water creatures)

and, yes from a 'creation' man made point of view, this is entirely the case - and from an 'evolutionary' point of view it would make perfect sense, as this is or would be, its true evolutionary path so to speak.

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kind of a ridiculous argument to use perfection and imperfection but just something to ponder i guess. Evolution is progression of an organism (wether its an improvement or not is subjective). Essentially its direction is guided by environmental factors (food habitat predators and competition). The best suited organisms survive.

When speaking generally its fine to make use of such notions i think, but, as like most things when we have in depth discussion, its impossible to break down every context to explain in precise manner due to another persons interpretation - but thats how we move forward and evolve ourselves i guess.

Thank God for Darwinism lol "the best suited organism survives".

lol you don't need to thank god for that. you should thank him for not being a prankster

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit lol you don't need to thank god for that. you should thank him for not being a prankster

yes indeed,

I think God is the prankster". Oops did i say that".

This guy proves creationism right!!!!!1

I prefer the Gnostic view of Christian creationism.

God created a female angelic deity who went forth and spawned a whole slew of minor deities of which they formed the earth.

Also everything is inherently evil, Jesus was sort of an asshole to his followers, he was also immortal and the crucifixion was not him dying for our sins but a release from his human body so he could go back to heaven (which apparently no one is actually allowed into) and get away from the jerk asses around him.

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Originally posted by Krypton This guy proves creationism right!!!!!1

sure teach religion in school.. thats fine.. but don't call it science. science has factual evidence to back it up.


You can still have faith and accept evolution. Religious texts do not need to be taken literally.

"they put the baby dinosaurs on board not the big ones DUH!" lol

id like to see noah fit even the extant species today on his ship. that would be 1.5 million * 2 = 3.0 million.

keep in mind that the total number of species to ever have existed is hypothesised to be more then 99 times that.

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Originally posted by Krypton

I was gonna post that yesterday

until i closed the tab bc i got annoyed

a bit off topic

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Originally posted by Krypton This guy proves creationism right!!!!!1

I aint going to sit there for two hours and watch that guy talk", but thanks anyways.

Christianity' the law of the land for the herd the masses".

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit a bit off topic

Ali G bloody legend.. nice one Nrg2Nfinit

lol im watching that creationist-bullshit video now, just a bunch of bullshit uptil now.

only thing i liked was a quote from the bible.
in Isaiah 14:14 Lucifer is saying
"I will ascend above the heights and clouds; I will be like the most high"

for some reason i read that in my mind with Seth Rogens voice, and it was really funny. "I will be, like, the most high. Ever!

omg i cant believe i wasted an hour watching that dumb fucking jesus movie.

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Originally posted by Energy_3 I aint going to sit there for two hours and watch that guy talk", but thanks anyways. Christianity' the law of the land for the herd the masses".

You don't have to. Just put the video anywhere in between the beginning and end and you'll see how retarded creationism is.

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