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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You created a fucking dichotomy between white, European culture and black African culture, assigning very different values to each. And ever since then, you've steadily back-tracked and back-tracked away from that nice clear division until we're reaching the stage where your original point was so generalised "because this is a message board" it's lost almost all meaning.

Except that it was never conceived of as a 'clear division' 'binary opposition', or 'dichotomy', as I've tried to explain many times - it's a continuum. Dichotomies are mutually exclusive, and jointly exhaustive. Binary oppositions are inherently loaded with values. This would be the worst possible way to describe any cultural phenomenon, let alone a musical one involving the cross-pollination of many cultures and traditions.

The only reason you seem to be clinging to this is because it's easy to criticize. Either that, or you are too simple-minded to wrap your head around it (I know you aren't). Like I said, if you're going to argue with me, at least argue with what I am saying, and not what you wish I were saying.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J And it's "couldn't care less". And since when was it spelled "aprpeciate"?

Cool fragments, bro! Maybe it's time to take the 'accomplished literary scholar stick' out of your ass and put it in someone else's? PETRAN seems like he deserves it more than anyone, so I nominate him.

Now this is a respectable chunk of criticism.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Nef, i completely understand about the "vertical" and the "horizontal" as being on the extreme ends of a continuum, i just don't agree on the thing that Techno originated as a re-statement of original black African traditional music which in turn strictly tends towards the "vertical" end of the continuum.

I don't believe that either, PETRAN. I don't think it is a conscious restatement of original African traditional music. What I think is that several of the characteristics of original African music have been preserved in a coded, molecular form and persist as evolutionary threads from original african music through blues, jazz, funk, electro, techno, etc. We all know that techno producers were actually more interested in breaking away from the trad institution of retrospection towards black music, and more consciously interested in an afrofuturistic approach which explicity broke with tradition, or simply a futuristic or 'robotic' approach.

I don't buy the notion that techno was completely sterile. As Derrick May, I believe, described it himself, techno was like 'george clinton and kraftwerk stuck in an elevator with only a synthesizer to keep them company'. In other words, the originators of techno were highly influenced by music that carried this 'germ' or 'seed', this 'code', and so it is congenital in their own music. (Both 'george clinton' seed and 'kraftwerk' seed)

So I hope you see that I am not arguing that techno is a 'restatement' of anything african, which wrongly presupposes motive.

I am arguing that there is some cultural germ or code (not biological) that threads together music either consciously, or unconsciously, simply because of the compounded effect of the musical influences and listening habits of of a group of people handed down over time.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN You keep posting Robert Hood, but i don't think that Robert Hood represents your typical early-original Detroit Techno, since he appeared later-on and made a more minimalistic loopy tribal-techno sound which is not what the early Deatroit musicians did. Ofcourse now a few words on top of a loopy tribal techno tune about blacks doesn't prove anything, no more than a few sexual words on top of a tribal house tune (there are many and i consider them stupid lol)proving some deeper relation to some traditional sexual ritual.

PETRAN, I have to reject the notion that the only 'detroit techno' is 'original detroit techno'. This is flawed, because the originators themselves admit they were basically copying people like Afrika Bambaataa and following the NYC scene quite closely through the radio, etc. There can be no distinct 'origin' - it is a losing game.

Rather, I believe that we can look at people like Robert Hood as representative of a more mature, developed, 'generic' cross section of detroit techno, and that's why I posted him. I don't really see the originators of 'detroit techno' as pure 'detroit techno producers', because they were basically making electro for a different dance crowd (midwest music box/warehouse detroit-chicago axis)

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN If im going to use that rhythm-melody continuum, i would say that original early Detroit Techno is placed exactly in the middle of that vertical-horizontal spectrum. You ger a lot of repetition throough the loops but you also get a lot of sounds coming and leaving, pianos and sci-fi synth lines playing spacey melodies (telling futuristic stories?) and even vocodered vocals (e.g. Model 500/Cybortron) singing/talking about dystopian subjects and alien concepts. You even get those 80s build-up drums which are typical of the era.

Ok, fair enough, but 'exactly in the middle' is still closer to that end of the spectrum than an english folk song, or a count basie.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN I just can't see that closer relation to African traditional music, at least no more closer than 60s Funk music or 30s/40s Be-Bop Jazz. Because it is a music whose development strictly reflects its' influeces, as well as, the place and time it was produced (Funk influences, hip-hop, disco and house influences and electro, industrial and EBM influences possibly influential on that black kids from Detroit).

That's exactly what I said - that things like 60s funk and 30s/40s be-bop jazz passed the torch eventually to Detroit Techno producers. Like I explained above, it is a stepwise process of passing on a seed of cultural information from one generation to another. It doesn't matter if your skin is black and white, but that the cultural seed is planted in you, nourished, and allowed to grow and reproduce again.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN Plus i wouldn't identify the "vertical" end of the spectrum with black music right? White music with its' heterogeneous populations and cultures can also demonstrate pure examples found on the extreme "vertical" end (e.g. tha vearious "Dances" of european countries).

This is by far the weakest part of my argument, and I've struggled to defend it, but I am going to hold on to it because I think there is something in it yet. I think you can always find counterexamples. I am more interested in broader tendencies and cultural movements/trends/directions. I don't know quite enough about African art and culture to defend the claim, but I know enough to make the hypothesis. I think the development and extreme dominance of the sequential, linear, compartmentalized mode of thinking in mainstream Western European society (which is historically more musically important on the global scale) is fairly obvious, so I don't see a need to defend that claim.

But as far as the African claim, like I told MrJiveBoJingles, I will have to get back to you on that one I think there is something there though. Currently the only book I have read supporting this idea is the one I keep posting (Alphabet versus the Goddess), which was interestingly enough written by a neuroscientist. (you might be interested in the discussion on the evolution of the brain in this one, PETRAN), but I have a pretty tall stack of books to go through yet that I think will be full of more substantive anthropological and art historical evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by PETRAN And i also think that right-left brain distinction is also false, ironically enough i read an exciting book about music perception from music psychologist/cognitive scientist Daniel Levitin called "This is your brain on music" and his main thesis is that all kinds of music affect the whole brain and that the right/left brain distinction is a myth. What he found is that rhythm and tempo all affect sub-cortical structures such as the cerebellum and basal ganglia (those primitive structures are generally used in timing and motor processing so it makes sense to process rhythm, tempo and meter)and that pitch and timbre affect almost all of the cortical lobes. Now what you say about "image-based" and "word-based" is also an over-simplification, since according to Levitin, music with emphasis on timbre, chromatics and abstract chords like impressionistic classical (e.g. Debussy) largely affects the right brain, more so than most other genres (although all music ofcourse affects the right brain), because this music (together with ambient etc.) evokes strongs images and spatial representations (e.g. the sea, the wind, the mountains etc.) which are largely processed in the right-cortex, especially the "visual" areas on the back. And there is no rhythm in site! But all music affects the whole brain. Hey and i'm not snarky ok, i just state my opinion, i have all the good mood for nice conversation you are probably pissed-of by System-J but you know, thats his style heh.

I'll let you be the brain expert - I was just using the left/right brain thing as an analogy or thought experiment, whether it's proved biologically true or false. It was to say, basically, that given two distinct poles of a system, dominance will fluctuate between them, but that the system operates best with the presence of both poles simultaneously. (and yes, I know there are incredible stories of adaptation in the case of lobotomy, etc) So please regard this as the more general analogy it was meant to be and not a statement on brain science, on which I defer to you! I suppose a better analogy is needed given these developments in neuroscience.

Certainly I think all music effects the entire brain at once - and this goes in concert with what I said about a piece of music not being entirely vertical or horizontal.

But consider the effect on the brain of an instrumental Debussy piece versus the Hokey-Pokey. (trying to think of the most didactic music I can )

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec The only reason you seem to be clinging to this is because it's easy to criticize. Either that, or you are too simple-minded to wrap your head around it (I know you aren't). Like I said, if you're going to argue with me, at least argue with what I am saying, and not what you wish I were saying.

Actually I've systematically poked holes in almost every assumption your argument has made, but as we've discussed, you've willfully ignored those parts because they're fatally damaging to your case. I'm "clinging to" this part because it's the only part you haven't dropped.

To be honest, it's become clear you probably weren't being racist. Your argument was just so severely flawed I took it that the only logical grounding for it would involve racist assumptions.

quote:

Cool fragments, bro! Maybe it's time to take the 'accomplished literary scholar stick' out of your ass and put it in someone else's? PETRAN seems like he deserves it more than anyone, so I nominate him.

Funny thing is, the only thing I've mentioned about literature was a facetious reference to Roald Dahl, and I only made that a literary analogy so it wouldn't be a false analogy. You're the guy who mentioned writing a book on this subject, made a bad analogy to editing and has generally tried your hardest to make it seem like I'm involving my writing in this debate about music.

Maybe you should take your 'deep musical thinker' stick out of your ass and replace your weighty conceptual music books with one that teaches you a few logical basics to ground your deep, deep ideas in.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Actually I've systematically poked holes in almost every assumption your argument has made, but as we've discussed, you've willfully ignored those parts because they're fatally damaging to your case. I'm "clinging to" this part because it's the only part you haven't dropped. To be honest, it's become clear you probably weren't being racist. Your argument was just so severely flawed I took it that the only logical grounding for it would involve racist assumptions. Funny thing is, the only thing I've mentioned about literature was a facetious reference to Roald Dahl, and I only made that a literary analogy so it wouldn't be a false analogy. You're the guy who mentioned writing a book on this subject, made a bad analogy to editing and has generally tried your hardest to make it seem like I'm involving my writing in this debate about music. Maybe you should take your 'deep musical thinker' stick out of your ass and replace your weighty conceptual music books with one that teaches you a few logical basics to ground your deep, deep ideas in.

Just shut the fuck up noob.

You know you've won an argument when Existo disagrees with you.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J You know you've won an argument when Existo disagrees with you.

I actually got the impression he was on your side and being sarcastic.

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Originally posted by nefardec I actually got the impression he was on your side and being sarcastic.

There are no sides, only arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated There are no sides, only arguments.

OK, Confucius.

'I got the impression he was agreeing with your argument and being sarcastic.'

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I actually got the impression he was on your side and being sarcastic.

She. The sig quote probably gave a hint, but in practise I don't agree with her as much as she probably thought.

Anyway, how about we leave it with: I don't think you're a racist, I just think you're wrong? Until the next heavyweight debate gets too heated.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated There are no sides, only arguments.

Was that a bit of non-dualism?

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J She. The sig quote probably gave a hint, but in practise I don't agree with her as much as she probably thought. Anyway, how about we leave it with: I don't think you're a racist, I just think you're wrong? Until the next heavyweight debate gets too heated.

Sure.


still waiting for your response, though, PETRAN.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Was that a bit of non-dualism?

It's funny that you picked up on it while nefardec sarcastically called me Confucius. It was less than a month ago that he was passionately supporting the idea and trying to make everyone who didn't agree with him feel like a shallow non-thinker.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated It's funny that you picked up on it while nefardec sarcastically called me Confucius. It was less than a month ago that he was passionately supporting the idea and trying to make everyone who didn't agree with him feel like a shallow non-thinker.

I'm sure his response to this will involve the word "continuum".

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated It's funny that you picked up on it while nefardec sarcastically called me Confucius. It was less than a month ago that he was passionately supporting the idea and trying to make everyone who didn't agree with him feel like a shallow non-thinker.

that's because it was a stupid comment. even in nondualism one can identify sides, it's just that the sides are recognized as different aspects of the same whole.

anyways, that's as far as you're going to get pushing that button.

but i do apologize for making you feel shallow.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm sure his response to this will involve the word "continuum".

hey, you were wrong! do i win something?

how about one of those hot international girls you were sporting?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec how about one of those hot international girls you were sporting?

Women are not objects to be traded or sported, you fucking sexist!

By the way, that's exactly why I said non-dualism will not change the face of science.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Women are not objects to be traded or sported, you fucking sexist! By the way, that's exactly why I said non-dualism will not change the face of science.

lol.

i agree with you regarding the face of science as we know it.

anyways, can we agree not to take this nondualism discussion any further? (at least in this thread, i would be happy to talk about it elsewhere)

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec but i do apologize for making you feel shallow.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated trying to make everyone who didn't agree with him feel like a shallow non-thinker.

http://www.subjectdetroit.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Tangil http://www.subjectdetroit.com/

lemme guess, you read the RA article on bone?

I think it should be mentioned that when the Belleville Three began making techno, they (probably) didn't set out to make 'black music'. However, when techno began gaining popularity and acclaim, they saw the potential it had to bring further musical prestige to the black community and claimed it as such.

quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated I think it should be mentioned that when the Belleville Three began making techno, they (probably) didn't set out to make 'black music'. However, when techno began gaining popularity and acclaim, they saw the potential it had to bring further musical prestige to the black community and claimed it as such.

that's known to be somewhat true, especially in the case of derrick may, who is a self-described 'primadonna artist'.

But I think you are looking at the situation the wrong way - it wasn't so much that they saw it had the potential to bring prestige to the black community, it was that they had a detroit community and they felt detroit's contribution was under-appreciated (they still feel like this)

actually the fact that dj bone/subject detroit is mentioned above is interesting because bone has pretty strong opinions on the treatment of detroit artists versus history.


What I still don't get is why people are so fixated on 'the belleville three'. this 'holy trinity' is just the most popular three first wave detroit techno deejays, and the most easy to group.

there are many other first wave detroit techno deejays like blake baxter, anthony shakir, etc.

what people don't realize is there was a larger underground community of people in detroit and a tradition of deejaying and dance music even since the early 80s. anthony shakir had been producing for years already as well as engineering for juan atkins, blake baxter had been deejaying for years.

detroit techno didn't just appear out of nowhere - it came out of an existing musical/cultural tradition.

so it's not as simple as saying 'the bellville three' and meaning some ground-zero of techno.


also, a number of later (but still early) artists should be credited with helping to develop detroit techno and turn it into what it is. One group I haven't mentioned yet that ought to be mentioned is DREXCIYA.

read their biography

quote:

Detroit electro-techno outfit Drexciya was conceived in 1989, but first came into the public eye in 1994 with "Aquatic Invasion" - the first of a thematic series of releases. Drexciya's James Stinson and Gerald Donald remained hidden behind their alias for much of the group's existence, communicating a complex personal mythology of a "Drexciyan" race of underwater dwellers descended from pregnant slave women thrown overboard during trans-Atlantic deportation. Within this fiction, their music - which they claimed was recorded "live in the studio" rather than programmed - was imagined as a "dimensional jumphole" between their black African roots and the contemporary USA.

(ps their number one myspace friend is Sun-ra)

and here is an art exhibition inspired by Drexciya:
http://www.recirca.com/reviews/2007/texts/eg.shtml

and for those interested, here is the actual text of the drexicyan myth found in the liner notes of 'the quest' (which btw is selling for 135 euro, jesus)

quote:

Back inside cover reads: Could it be possible for humans to breath underwater? A foetus in its mothers womb is certainly alive in an aquatic environment. During the greatest holocaust the world has ever known, pregnant America-bound African slaves were thrown overboard by the thousands during labour for being sick and disruptive cargo. Is it possible that they could have given birth at sea to babies that never needed air? Recent experiments have shown mice able to breathe liquid oxygen. Even more shocking and conclusive was a recent instance of a premature infant saved from certain death by breathing liquid oxygen through its undeveloped lungs. These facts combined with reported sightings of Gillmen and swamp monsters in the coastal swamps of the South-Eastern United States make the slave trade theory startlingly feasible. Are Drexciyans water breathing, aquatically mutated descendants of those unfortunate victims of human greed? have they been spared by God to teach us or terrorise us? Did they migrate from the Gulf of Mexico to the Mississippi river basin and on to the great lakes of Michigan? Do they walk among us? Are they more advanced than us and why do they make their strange music? What is their Quest? These are many of the questions that you don�t know and never will. The end of one thing...and the beginning of another. Out - The Unknown Writer

eddie fowlkes killed my family

quote:

Originally posted by Schadenfreude eddie fowlkes killed my family

sorry to hear that but thanks for mentioning him

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec What I still don't get is why people are so fixated on 'the belleville three'. this 'holy trinity' is just the most popular three first wave detroit techno deejays, and the most easy to group.

Probably because they loudly (and often erroneously) took the credit for everything.

But if you want to emphasise the lack of clear turning point from techno to electro, in my opinion you only undermine this idea of techno as black music, given how electro is essentially experimental European electronic music. People tend to view the Belleville trio, for better or worse, as the ones who historically made the switch from electro to techno. They changed the gameplan and did something differently.

Again, this depends on your notion of genre classification. Going on the "inner form" methodology, a genre is defined by a core ethos or essence, and so techno was born the moment the music developed a seperate core notion to electro. Which, historically, is grounded with the Belleville trio. If you're going to say techno bled from electro and is just electro as made for Detroit/Chicago tastes then you basically have to turn techno into a list of audible genre elements.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec But I think you are looking at the situation the wrong way - it wasn't so much that they saw it had the potential to bring prestige to the black community, it was that they had a detroit community and they felt detroit's contribution was under-appreciated (they still feel like this)

No, I agree with this as well as my original statement.

It's gotten a bit silly now - a lot of Detroit natives seem to think that any music made outside of there isn't real techno.

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