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-- My "people better start buying music" rant (RANT INSIDE)
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Originally posted by Kysora From the people who are blatantly ignoring the demands, sure. If demanding worked we wouldn't be having this little debate, I'm not sure why you're reducing my post because I'm offering an alternative that's not "make more useless technological barriers to piracy that will fail the same way all the other ones already have"

Lmao; people don't care if you ask them or have a firm price on any type of product or service. If they can get it for free they will not pay. The government is the problem here as they have basically admitted the problem is too big to contain and it has created an atmosphere where anything is fair game to steal if it's available. It's hardly even looked down upon anymore. It's truly sad.

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Originally posted by Kysora Uhh, yeah, because I'm quite sure if I spent 6 months working on that track, I'd spend it thinking "God I hope this gets circulated". It's what I think now, even though I know I really don't have the means yet. But it's still an aspiration. Maybe on a professional level it doesn't apply, maybe it's because I don't have real industry experience, but I can't imagine making music and prioritizing the profits from each song over the number of people I can expose my craft to. Music is a hobby to me, and it's most fulfilling when other people can take part in it and enjoy what I do. If that can be accomplished through pirating, at the end of the day (or the six months) it'd be completely worth it. Even if it means having to get a day job to get by, it might eat up some of my time but that's no reason to give it up.

"You're quite sure"? Meaning you have no clue and are speaking on a hypothetical. You will probably never get to that point because you don't have the confidence or drive to accomplish getting to that level.

I am not speaking about prioritizing profits. I am talking about the fact that there is so much work that goes into making a superior production that making 20 bucks for it is obviously not worth it. It doesn't mean that people stop producing because as stated if you're that good you have to love it. Go back to the Alex Stealthy example and understand that if he were making what his talent commanded in market share he would be putting out many more great works.

http://forums.di.fm/world-of-music/...-career-101290/

Back in the day someone like Alex i'm sure made quite a good amount of money doing what he loves and doing it better than most others. He was probably 5 years ahead of his peers in production quality and his dark progressive style has yet to be matched or duplicated (even his tracks from early in the 2000's).

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 Lmao; people don't care if you ask them or have a firm price on any type of product or service. If they can get it for free they will not pay.

Did you even read that article about Benn Jordan that I posted?

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"You're quite sure"? Meaning you have no clue and are speaking on a hypothetical. You will probably never get to that point because you don't have the confidence or drive to accomplish getting to that level.

It's honestly frightening to me that you're speaking in such extremes about how musicians will refuse to carry on if they don't make money off of it. I am not in this to make money, does that make me any less dedicated to my music than someone who is?

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I am not speaking about prioritizing profits. I am talking about the fact that there is so much work that goes into making a superior production that making 20 bucks for it is obviously not worth it.

What defines "worth"? If I make a "superior production", that would be enough for me, I wouldn't be upset over it because it didn't sell like mad. If people still pirated it I'd know my music was being listened to, which is why I'm in this to begin with.

Maybe I'm an odd example but I would honestly never see a dime for my music but still be a well known artist than never once have someone download my tracks and suffer an audience for the same reason. For producers who depend on sales to eat, I can see why this would all be a problem. And while I can both see how and acknowledge that some people might care about market shares and profits and be anti-piracy for all of those reasons, I'm not.

I'd rather see my music get pirated from an audience than never once have my music be in the hands of someone who didn't give me money for it, and suffer a fanbase for it.

I should probably clarify I'm not speaking universally when I talk about myself, I simply said I wish people pirated my music, just because I don't rely on my music for anything. It's a hobby, a passion, and I'm never going to let money get in the way of that.

If I thought the quality of my tracks were so amazing, why not gain the biggest audience possible by giving the okay for people to download it free? The only thing that makes music "worth it" in the end is the feeling of making something great that you believe in, and having other people love it, too. All the other stuff is a distant second. If I ever made it to the point where thousands of people wanted to have my music, why would I not simply be happy, rather than scolding fans for being a bit cheap and downloading it on torrents?

Yeah, yeah, I know you'll say, "It's easy to act all virtuous when you're some nobody!"

But I think people who stop making music altogether because they see no money in it can fuck right off. A person who has passion for music will make tunes on a broken old guitar for a couple hours each week if that's all the time and money he can spare. Not bitch about filesharing, take his toys and leave the sandbox crying like a four year old if it no longer pays.

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 Exactly my point. The software if we're speaking of computer games provides many times over. You pay once for it and it provides entertainment many times over. The depth and interaction of a computer game makes them much more valuable to a consumer. Music on the other hand is disposable. It is objective and it means more to some than it does to others. Because music doesn't provide the entertainment value that computer games do; why would someone pay for it if they could get it for free?

So your argument here seems to be that music is worthless. That doesn't hold water either. How then do you explain the exponential growth of the iTunes store and other online distributors?

And let's hypothetically say that it were true - that music has no value, that it is intrinsically disposable. Then why should people pay for it? Wouldn't that make it nonsensical to expect any money whatsoever for track/record sales?

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On top of that the marketing big name dj's do creates an atmosphere where the fans think that the music is made by the dj's who spin it.

Irrelevant. DJs pay for the music they play. Unless you're suggesting that DJs pay some kind of broadcast fees (in which case, be prepared to lose all your business very fast), that's just the way it is. Most pop stars don't produce their own music either and many of them don't even sing, yet they get the credit. That's the biz for ya.

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The difference is video games are much more than music. A standard consumer will think that because a track is $2 that a) it can't be that hard to make and b) the artist won't miss their sale that much.

So now you're saying that a high price creates a perception of value and low price creates a perception of fluff? This, again, does not stand up to evidence - far more people are buying $2 tracks online today than there were buying $20 albums a few years ago.

And then there's the iPhone App Store's infamous race to the bottom, all of those crummy little 99 cent apps lowering the bar for serious developers. A lot of these apps really are crap in a truly objective sense, but people buy these, mainly because it's so cheap that it's below their "oh, what the hell, why not" threshold. Tracks are in the same price range and consumers appear to demonstrate roughly the same behaviour.

Your statement also ignores the fact that piracy is every bit as rampant with games as it is with music; the whole point, which you still seem to be ignoring, is that the good game distributors find ways to use this in their favour instead of using it as an excuse.

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And I fully believe people pirate because they don't have the money or aren't stand up enough to be legit and pay for something they can get for free.

Spore was one of the most heavily-locked down games ever produced, and it was also the #1 most pirated game of 2008. It wasn't priced higher or lower than anything else on the market, but Maxis/EA did manage to piss a lot of people off with restrictions - and fans showed their disfavour by playing cracked versions of the game instead of buying it.

Your belief that people pirate because they don't have money is mistaken. These people who are downloading $2 tracks are doing it on a $1200 PC with a $40/month internet connection, and listening on their $400 iPods/iPhones which they upgrade religiously year after year - you really think they can't afford it?

Your assertion that they aren't "stand up enough to be legit" may be correct, but it's ultimately irrelevant, as those people do not represent lost sales! If that is truly the way they think/behave, crippling their ability to obtain the music for free will only result in them not listening to your music, which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater - giving up the publicity and brand loyalty it creates simply to shut a few fans out of their dirty habits.

Spore was cracked in like 30 minutes of being released too...

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Originally posted by Kysora Did you even read that article about Benn Jordan that I posted?

Did you fail to see that almost the entirety of the income was made with preorders???? I've already admitted piracy is good from a marketing perspective for newer producers.

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Originally posted by Kysora It's honestly frightening to me that you're speaking in such extremes about how musicians will refuse to carry on if they don't make money off of it. I am not in this to make money, does that make me any less dedicated to my music than someone who is?

You're misquoting or misunderstanding me. I said musicians will be forced to cut down on work as they will have to pick up another job. It's one of those things you do full out all the time or you do ever so often kind of like when you dust the video game console out. The problem is the people who want to make music all the time are not able to accept doing it every so often. When you aim at the top in everything you do it's not acceptable for punk bitch cheapskates to relegate your work to a simple hobby.

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Originally posted by Kysora What defines "worth"? If I make a "superior production", that would be enough for me, I wouldn't be upset over it because it didn't sell like mad. If people still pirated it I'd know my music was being listened to, which is why I'm in this to begin with.

Agree wholeheartedly; but how many superior productions would you be able to continue to make knowing what you know about piracy and the way the edm industry works? You're taking the stance as a producer who has yet to be exposed; I'm speaking from the perspective of an experienced producer who has been there done that. I once held your viewpoint. And then I became experienced and that loses it's luster. When you make one great work you have to bring each new work to that level or you feel like you failed. When you're not seeing financial results (which in this case is of my own choice) it is very easy to feel a work is a failure because your prior one is perceived to be better. It becomes much more of a grind than a passion. You will see in time.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles If I thought the quality of my tracks were so amazing, why not gain the biggest audience possible by giving the okay for people to download it free? The only thing that makes music "worth it" in the end is the feeling of making something great that you believe in, and having other people love it, too. All the other stuff is a distant second. If I ever made it to the point where thousands of people wanted to have my music, why would I not simply be happy, rather than scolding fans for being a bit cheap and downloading it on torrents? Yeah, yeah, I know you'll say, "It's easy to act all virtuous when you're some nobody!" But I think people who stop making music altogether because they see no money in it can fuck right off. A person who has passion for music will make tunes on a broken old guitar for a couple hours each week if that's all the time and money he can spare. Not bitch about filesharing, take his toys and leave the sandbox crying like a four year old if it no longer pays.

Because you have a dayjob genius. You're not doing music full out. It's a hobby to you. You're afforded that luxury. And I seem to remember several times where you said you were hanging it up?

You & others fail to realize that music is very profitable if there weren't a bunch of asshats stealing the music that is supposed to be bought. I'd have no problem making music for free my entire life if the system was not being taken advantage of.

How would you be able to accept putting your heart and soul into something for a month for hours every night knowing that as soon as you release your work it will be stolen time and time again by people that will not think twice about it? It's extremely disheartening even thinking about it.

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Originally posted by DigiNut So your argument here seems to be that music is worthless. That doesn't hold water either. How then do you explain the exponential growth of the iTunes store and other online distributors?

Far from worthless. But it does feel like people believe it has less value than other forms of entertainment. I believe the problem is the way people look at piracy as a whole, not just music. Music is just on the bottom of the food chain so it gets hit hardest.

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Originally posted by DigiNut So now you're saying that a high price creates a perception of value and low price creates a perception of fluff? This, again, does not stand up to evidence - far more people are buying $2 tracks online today than there were buying $20 albums a few years ago.

A better indicator would be the percent of people that purchase compared to pirating. More people are buying simply because there is a greater volume of people going after music. Internet era. I'd say 25% at most of people buy their music at this time. For industry I say it's closer to 50% but that's even more ridiculous if you think about it.

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Originally posted by DigiNut And then there's the iPhone App Store's infamous race to the bottom, all of those crummy little 99 cent apps lowering the bar for serious developers. A lot of these apps really are crap in a truly objective sense, but people buy these, mainly because it's so cheap that it's below their "oh, what the hell, why not" threshold. Tracks are in the same price range and consumers appear to demonstrate roughly the same behaviour.

I have first hand experience with ploys like this although mine was with Motorola which was the first company to be big on purchasable apps roughly 5-6 years ago. It is a purchase made out of convenience. Not need but convenience. Why do you think Beatport just made a portable client? That exact reason. People will sit there playing with their phones and if they see something they like they purchase it; especially since they usually bill to your cell instead of actually having to put in CC info. If you put together one click purchasing and impressionable minds it's game over.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Your statement also ignores the fact that piracy is every bit as rampant with games as it is with music; the whole point, which you still seem to be ignoring, is that the good game distributors find ways to use this in their favour instead of using it as an excuse.

The difference is you can go to any Fred Meyers, Wal Mart, Best Buy, or any other store that carries any electronics and buy a video/computer game. We both know that is not possible with edm music

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Originally posted by DigiNut Your belief that people pirate because they don't have money is mistaken. These people who are downloading $2 tracks are doing it on a $1200 PC with a $40/month internet connection, and listening on their $400 iPods/iPhones which they upgrade religiously year after year - you really think they can't afford it?

They are pirating because they don't need to spend their money on the product they are trying to pirate. It's quite easy to rationalize from a non industry perspective. They aren't going to use the tracks to play out so the quality hit is meaningless. Why even open a beatport account when you can pirate every track you want for free? That's their train of thought. In fact I doubt most consumers even know about beatport or other download portals.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Your assertion that they aren't "stand up enough to be legit" may be correct, but it's ultimately irrelevant, as those people do not represent lost sales! If that is truly the way they think/behave, crippling their ability to obtain the music for free will only result in them not listening to your music, which is throwing the baby out with the bathwater - giving up the publicity and brand loyalty it creates simply to shut a few fans out of their dirty habits.

They don't directly correlate to lost sales but their actions influence people that do correlate to lost sales. People are impressionable and still want to get the music they want even if they can't afford it or don't want to pay for it. Thus they heard about big Cron on the TA forums talking about how easy it is to pirate full unmixed tracks and they try it out for themselves. They are now hooked. Now even when they do have money to allocate towards buying some music they continue to pirate because "nobody will miss my sale".

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 Did you fail to see that almost the entirety of the income was made with preorders???? I've already admitted piracy is good from a marketing perspective for newer producers.

Fair enough

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You're misquoting or misunderstanding me. I said musicians will be forced to cut down on work as they will have to pick up another job. It's one of those things you do full out all the time or you do ever so often kind of like when you dust the video game console out.

Well I personally spend about 2 hours a day working on my music -- not nearly "full time". I too already admitted that people who depend on music to live are going to be negatively affected.

I'm just having a hard time accepting that people who are truly passionate about music are going to give it up because sales figures or market share isn't holding up like it once did, mostly because I can't imagine doing such a thing myself. Even being discouraged by it seems a bit odd.

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You're taking the stance as a producer who has yet to be exposed; I'm speaking from the perspective of an experienced producer who has been there done that. I once held your viewpoint.

The thing is, I don't have any expectations for my music. The only thing I'd want is for other people to enjoy it, but even if that doesn't happen I have too much fun just making songs to want to give it up without exposure. Hell, it's what I've been doing for the last 2 and a half years, 2-4 hours a day. I've put in a LOT of time, and I'm not the best, but I'm perfectly at peace just making music because what it boils down to is just a fun way to fill my free time. That doesn't mean I'm not serious about it, but I can be at peace without relying on sales to judge my own worth as a musician.

And as I said before, this is just how I feel, not how I think everyone ought to feel. If you disagree because experiences have made you feel otherwise, then I can't really say anything against that.

If you take out the money part of the equation, pirating is still better than trying to download something from beatport.

With pirating:

-There are no territory restrictions
-No need to worry about getting the wrong impression from a preview
-No "WAV Handling Fee"
-Higher quality "Previews"
-There are download counts for each song
-No clunky interface to deal with

http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/

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Your tools are not your competitive advantage It�s a war out there. We�re all trying to get ahead. There are too many of us looking for work and not enough clients or listeners to go around. We�ll do anything to get our head above water � even if it means pushing down (or not holding a hand out to) our colleagues. Or, alternatively, we�re all on the same team. There�s a boundless and ever-growing number of clients and listeners who want to enjoy our music. The biggest challenge is getting the music in front of them. By working together we can reach more ears. By working together we can help each other improve our skills. We can encourage each other to work harder, producing work that keeps getting better and better. Which world do you live in?

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Originally posted by Beatflux If you take out the money part of the equation, pirating is still better than trying to download something from beatport. With pirating: -There are no territory restrictions -No need to worry about getting the wrong impression from a preview -No "WAV Handling Fee" -Higher quality "Previews" -There are download counts for each song -No clunky interface to deal with

- Territory restrictions are the only time where I could see piracy being warranted.

- I actually used to pirate tracks to preview the full track before deciding if it was worth purchasing or not; then I found Trackitdown; you can move the sample to whatever part of the song you want to listen to. Seems to be higher quality than BP as well.

- As per my knowledge there are rarely if ever legit wavs available via pirating. On top of that you never know if someone just upconverted a 320 to wav.

- You seriously need a download count to see if you're interested in a track? That says a lot about what you play...

- Lol so you trade interface dislike for possible trojans and viruses?

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Originally posted by mfitterer1 On top of that you never know if someone just upconverted a 320 to wav.

Actually, you can: an MP3 typically has a very sharp cutoff of frequencies 20 kHz and above. This transfers over to WAV as well.

WAVs are pretty hard to come by through torrents, FLAC seems to be more popular

Question;

I've just had my first track signed. I have no shame in saying I made it deliberately as commercial sounding as possible, aimed squarely at the average weekend clubber rather than hardened EDM fan.



Why, if there is no money to be made is the label going to the trouble of getting it mastered, remixed, promoted, marketed and so on? why bother?

PS - I have my feet on the ground and no expectations.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Why, if there is no money to be made is the label going to the trouble of getting it mastered, remixed, promoted, marketed and so on? why bother? PS - I have my feet on the ground and no expectations.

Maybe for the same reason that thousands of people try to make music to get signed? That is, they believe that they can still make it. It's still a glamorous pursuit for a lot of people to be a DJ/Producer/label owner etc etc.

I don't actually know, just an idea.


I would be interested to see how it goes for you though. I've had offers of deals on two of my tracks but never pursued it. If there was money in it I would do though.

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Originally posted by tehlord I would be interested to see how it goes for you though. I've had offers of deals on two of my tracks but never pursued it. If there was money in it I would do though.

It's the track you aren't so keen on although I did make a lot of improvements in the final version. May well die a silent death though!

I'm wondering if a lot of producers are feeling unloved as a result of the vast oversupply of new tracks, meaning very few stand out and make an impact.

Something surprises me over on the anjuna forum. Recently 2 guys put up some very original futuristic sounding demos and got very little feedback even though a lot of listens. I would have thought those that supposedly crave originality, might be drawn to the more original demos

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Originally posted by Richard Butler It's the track you aren't so keen on although I did make a lot of improvements in the final version. May well die a silent death though! I'm wondering if a lot of producers are feeling unloved as a result of the vast oversupply of new tracks, meaning very few stand out and make an impact. Something surprises me over on the anjuna forum. Recently 2 guys put up some very original futuristic sounding demos and got very little feedback even though a lot of listens. I would have thought those that supposedly crave originality, might be drawn to the more original demos

Well I wasn't keen on it for the reasons you pointed out. You made a track that wasn't you (and send me that vocal track you posted a few months ago ffs, it was awesome! ) and it just sounded like a million other tracks (although I didn't hear the final!)

There's a lot of shite talked about genres and originality though. People get slated for not being original, and when they are the labels don't want to know because it's not 'of the moment'.

That's why I have no interested in getting signed unless it just happens to throw me some money. I would absolutely not steer a track a certain way to fit in with a labels idea of what it should be either. I don't have enough time to spend on what is a passion for me to scratch my head doing something I don't feel.

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Originally posted by tehlord it just sounded like a million other tracks (although I didn't hear the final!)

The label guy said it was very original!!

I didn't make it with a scene in mind but just wanted to make something original and hopefully with wider appeal than classic trance.

The vocal track you liked of mine is ok but when I play it to clubber types they say it's too lame and not deep and funky.

I think I'm comming away from more complex chordal sequences and melodies in favour of just trying to focus make something sonically different. Afterall, every chord sequence has been more or less heard many times over.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler The label guy said it was very original!! I didn't make it with a scene in mind but just wanted to make something original and hopefully with wider appeal than classic trance. The vocal track you liked of mine is ok but when I play it to clubber types they say it's too lame and not deep and funky. I think I'm comming away from more complex chordal sequences and melodies in favour of just trying to focus make something sonically different. Afterall, every chord sequence has been more or less heard many times over.

Like I said, I only heard the original short demo you posted.......

I think you need to stop worrying about what other people think about your stuff. That vocal track was superb. The seven thousand responses on the forum seemed to agree with me too!


edit - and in response to the OP. Maybe it's because labels appear to only sign and back safe, throwaway crap that people aren't spending money.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler It's the track you aren't so keen on although I did make a lot of improvements in the final version. May well die a silent death though! I'm wondering if a lot of producers are feeling unloved as a result of the vast oversupply of new tracks, meaning very few stand out and make an impact. Something surprises me over on the anjuna forum. Recently 2 guys put up some very original futuristic sounding demos and got very little feedback even though a lot of listens. I would have thought those that supposedly crave originality, might be drawn to the more original demos

Link?

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Originally posted by tehlord That vocal track was superb. The seven thousand responses on the forum seemed to agree with me too!

I cant remember which track it was!!

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Originally posted by Richard Butler I cant remember which track it was!!

The one with you singing.

Just after you 'recruited' me over to Anjuna.

I need to hear it again and you removed it from your Myspace page you selfish man



edit - 'My Son'

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Originally posted by tehlord The one with you singing. Just after you 'recruited' me over to Anjuna. I need to hear it again and you removed it from your Myspace page you selfish man edit - 'My Son'

Ah that one - I thought it was a bit cheestastic.

I need to dig out my hardrive and see whats worth finishing.

Currently making a tech disco number (have I invented a dreaded genre!!!!!!!!). It's one that some poeple will HATE.

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Originally posted by Richard Butler Ah that one - I thought it was a bit cheestastic.

If you're gonna do fack all with it you might as well let me have a copy so I can listen to it then!!!

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