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Originally posted by Saka I do see the bible has scientific fact in, but I don't use it as a text book for science in that way. it wasn't built to be specifically a science book.

Clearly you do, because you hold the Bible equivalent to scientific truth, over and above conventional scientific fact.

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And my insight on adaptation has come from studies at high school, concerning moths and grazing mammals, but evolution doesn't stem from animals adapting to an environment.

I see you've spent decades of your life doing thorough research in the university lecture hall (LOL @ studies at high school when you're view isn't even at a high school level-not to mention there is no real research done at the high school level anyways), laboratory, and in the field on your hands and knees digging up fossils and observing animals in their natural habitat yourself......you're just making it clear you really have no idea what you're talking about...

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Originally posted by Saka We aren't just talking about complex lifeforms here, we're talking about lifeforms so complex that there is no route to de-evolve them. Many evolutionary steps must have taken place simultaneously for pretty much all lifeforms to have kept on living, one minor missing evolutionary process would have thrown off the course of a species.

It did and many species didn't survive. It's called natural selection.

Your knowledge of biology isn't even at the high school level.

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Originally posted by Saka We aren't just talking about complex lifeforms here, we're talking about lifeforms so complex that there is no route to de-evolve them. Many evolutionary steps must have taken place simultaneously for pretty much all lifeforms to have kept on living, one minor missing evolutionary process would have thrown off the course of a species.

It's proven fact that structures like the eye evolved and currently exist in a myriad of progressive steps. For example, there are numerous animals who have eyes but whose eyes are essentially stuck as they were many millions of years ago, in a pretty much useless state, in that there only function, for example, is to detect light and dark, and that's it.

Question, if God made us so perfectly, why do we have wisdom teeth?

All these creationist stats keep throwing out the word "random", failing to recognize that processes like natural selection are the opposite of randomness..and that the origin of life was a **cumulative** process that likely took hundreds of millions of years of fits and starts with countless of failures along the way. When you have eons of time and a planet being bombarded with foreign chemicals constantly, it is only a matter of time before simple chemical compounds come together that can replicate themselves. Rare? Certainly. Impossible? There is NO reason to assume this. Stanley Miller managed to turn non-organic chemicals into organic matter 60 years ago in an experiment, and while we now know it did not replicate the early conditions of earth precisely, it at least showed it was possible to create the building blocks of life from non-life. Technology has advanced radically since then, so who knows what we will achieve in the next few decades? Once we do have a clear case of abiogenesis in the lab, do you think these creationists are going to say "Oops..I guess abiogenesis does have a non-supernatural explanation after all..just like earthquakes, lightning, planetary motion, disease, and everything else we once attributed to magic man..so I no longer believe in him." Nope..they will once again retreat into the shadows of ignorance, into the areas that have not yet been fully penetrated by science (such as consciousness, or the origin of the universe). Inside the boundaries of ignorance is the only place the faithful have ever been able to comfortably revel in with their imaginary friend..and that aint gonna change any time soon.

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Originally posted by Fledz It did and many species didn't survive. It's called natural selection. Your knowledge of biology isn't even at the high school level.

lol. why isn't it?
what did I say wrong?
the fact I didn't elaborate means I know no further information.
douche.

and Stalin, God made us perfect, we are now imperfect...

You are totally fixed on evolution then? mind and heart?

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt All these creationist stats keep throwing out the word "random", failing to recognize that processes like natural selection are the opposite of randomness..and that the origin of life was a **cumulative** process that likely took hundreds of millions of years of fits and starts with countless of failures along the way. When you have eons of time and a planet being bombarded with foreign chemicals constantly, it is only a matter of time before simple chemical compounds come together that can replicate themselves. Rare? Certainly. Impossible? There is NO reason to assume this. Stanley Miller managed to turn non-organic chemicals into organic matter 60 years ago in an experiment, and while we now know it did not replicate the early conditions of earth precisely, it at least showed it was possible to create the building blocks of life from non-life.

What you said helps prove creationism:

it at least showed it was possible to create the building blocks of life from non-life.

lol.

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Originally posted by Saka and Stalin, God made us perfect, we are now imperfect...

Then we weren't made perfect. Otherwise we'd still BE perfect. The fact that we currently aren't proves that we never were.

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Originally posted by Spam Then we weren't made perfect. Otherwise we'd still BE perfect. The fact that we currently aren't proves that we never were.

That thought process is astonishing....

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Originally posted by Saka What you said helps prove creationism: it at least showed it was possible to create the building blocks of life from non-life. lol.

I think we have proof that these buliding blocks came from meterorytes from space long ago that had organic material in them that helped shape the Earths oceans and thus some life atleast on a small level that increased over time. I could be wrong on this though.

Saka, what is your religion?

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Originally posted by Saka That thought process is astonishing....

Would you care to explain how a perfect being BECOMES imperfect then? Because when I think of perfection, I think of this definition:

entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings

To become imperfect, then the "perfect" being would have to had a flaw within it, meaning it never was ACTUALLY perfect.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Question, if God made us so perfectly, why do we have wisdom teeth?

Why do we have a tail bone?
Why do we have gills during the early stages of development?
Why can we wiggle our ears?
Did you know the pink part in our eyes is the remnant of a necessitating membrane? (which alligators, cats, & other animals still have)

Even though evolution does allow a species to progress, people forget that evolution is COMPLETELY random. There will never be a mutation for the benefit of the organism.

Here's a quick example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Kettlewell

This man studied how moths changed their phenotype, not because it benefits their species, but because all the white moths sitting against dark trees were susceptible to being eaten by birds. The one moth that had a mutation in it's genotype to have a black phenotype was the one that was able to pass on its genes.. Once the industrial period passed & soot was no longer darkening the trees, the complete opposite took effect. The darker moths were the ones being eaten, so the white grew in number.

quote:

Originally posted by Saka What you said helps prove creationism: it at least showed it was possible to create the building blocks of life from non-life. lol.

no it doesn't. Creationism is typically tied to biblical creationism..which says life was created roughly 6000 years ago instantly without any precursors or processes that led up to it (in other words, by magic). That hardly matches the various scientific hypotheses people are researching today.

arent yukii and comrade stalin the same dude

quote:

Originally posted by infiniteJEST arent yukii and comrade stalin the same dude

Comrade Stalin = Krypton, yukii is his gf.

yukii:
"This man studied how moths changed their phenotype, not because it benefits their species, but because all the white moths sitting against dark trees were susceptible to being eaten by birds."
How does that not benefit the species? Changing colour so the species can live on, I mean.

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Originally posted by infiniteJEST arent yukii and comrade stalin the same dude

Yeah, but two bodies.

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Originally posted by Saka and Stalin, God made us perfect, we are now imperfect...

How scientific...what kind of research did you do come up with this insight?

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You are totally fixed on evolution then? mind and heart?

Again, whether you or I believe in the Theory of Evolution, says nothing as to the truth of it. Whether you like it or not, evolution is a fact, no less valid than Einstein's General Theory of Relatively. The only people who reject evolution as a fact are those who are religiously inclined to do so. Again, it's not about me or you. A fact is fact whether you believe in it or not.

If you haven't noticed, I have been challenging you to provide some scientific basis for your beliefs, though I already know you have none because there is none. You've only provided vague philosophically/religiously oriented explanations of yourself, with a really bad attempt at the use of statistics. But I understand. You have at the heart of your entire world view, the belief that an intelligent, highly involved God created everything basically as it is today. And nothing, no matter the overwhelming volume of evidence to support it, is going to change your mind. But that's still no excuse for ignorance, especially the peddling of such ignorance on a public forum like this one.

Been slated enough, fact is neither of us is changing the others mind, and is causing parties to feud.
I have no ill feeling toward anyone for their beliefs and don;t want any ill feeling towards myself from others, so to not waste my time or anyone elses I'll got chat elsewhere about things that dont waste a group of peoples time.

This evolution stuff is a repost:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...&postid=9543333

Some of the same people debating the same points, too.

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Originally posted by Saka Been slated enough, fact is neither of us is changing the others mind, and is causing parties to feud. I have no ill feeling toward anyone for their beliefs and don;t want any ill feeling towards myself from others, so to not waste my time or anyone elses I'll got chat elsewhere about things that dont waste a group of peoples time.

Expecting us to believe in creationism over evolution, based on bad math, and religiously motivated arguments, is an exercise in futility. There is a reason the Age of Enlightenment was called so, because people finally realized that religion really provided no answers nor the motivation to seek scientific truth, because after all, if God did everything, why try to find why or how some natural occurance exists. God did it!

Oh look, a place where people's opinions differ on religion, evolution, creationism, and such.

That never happens.

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Originally posted by Renzo Oh look, a place where people's opinions differ on religion, evolution, creationism, and such. That never happens.

its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of fact.

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