TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Chill Out Room
-- Wars Cost $4 TRILLION!!
Pages (10): « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 »

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Do you have any prior to the testimony of Jamal al-Fadl?

do you have doubts about the veracity of his testimony with regards to something so trivial?

but anyway, sure:

quote:

Lawrence Wright in The Looming Tower points to a document called the "Tareek Osama", "a collection of memos, letters, and notes that were taken from an al Qaeda computer captured in Bosnia and entered into evidence in United States v Enaam Arnout". One of these documents details a meeting on August 11, 1988, "when the name al-Qaeda first surfaces", and includes snippets like the following: An initial estimate, within 6 months for Al-Qaida 314 brothers will be trained and ready... And on Saturday morning, 8/20/1988, the aforementioned brothers came and started the meeting, and the military work was suggested to be divided in two parts, according to duration: - Limited duration (known), they will go to Sada Camp, then get trained and distributed on Afghan fronts, under supervision of the military council. - Open duration (long), they enter a testing camp and the best brothers of them are chosen, in preparation to enter Al Qaida Al Askariya (the Military Base). The mentioned Al Qaida is basically an organized Islamic faction, its goal will be to lift the word of God, to make his religion victorious. Requirements to enter Al Qaida: - Members of the open duration. - Listening and obedient. - Good manners. - Referred from a trusted side. - Obeying statutes and instructions of Al Qaida. These are from the rules of the work.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_al_Qaeda_name

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak I can't find any trace of the name in Osama's 1998 fatwa, which is strange because it was supposedly formed 10 years previous. Nor any mention of it surrounding the 1993 WTC bombing, though not surprising as I don't think it had anything to do with Osama or whatever aQ is.

i dont think osama was particularly involved with the 1993 bombing, i think that was more KSM's scheme.

im not quite sure im following your point. even if the term AQ (al qaida for those in the cheap seats) wasn't used until after 911, uh, so what? (of course it was, if this lowly terrorism student had heard of it), but im curious where you're going with this.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceArmstrong it's so sad that the passionate american anti-war movement from the first part of the decade kinda died out i guess after 10 years people don't really care any more

I'd say it has more to do with media and culture than whether or not people actually care. For starters, there's not much to care about. What little news is actually about Afghanistan or Iraq, let alone the drone strikes in peripheral countries, is portrayed with a heavy Pentagon public relations lens.

A friend of ours who returned from tours in both countries maintains that the whole school-building/nation-building angle is largely contrived with camera shots of troops with shovels who've been promised some R&R. Rolling Stone, Frontline, 60 Minutes and NPR have taken the time to do in-depth if not less favorable reporting about what's really going on, but it's not nearly with the volume of Walter Cronkite reporting on the Vietnam conflict, in the 1960s, and there are plenty of news and non-news outlets providing news of the conflict with a less than forthright lens.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I figured Zewad knew people. I think VAR was there too. I know he mentioned at one point in another thread getting a TBI (traumatic brain injury). I don't know anyone who has died personally but I've known a few people that have come back with injuries, lots of them TBI or non-physical mental injuries, PTSD, etc. TBIs suck. I know a Major who got one in Iraq, he isn't too bad off but every so often he'll be talking and just wont be able to remember common words or ideas in his train of thought. It sucks. Another guy I know came back from Iraq with a TBI (from multiple explosions, he was Abrams commander, the gun on that thing probably fucked with his head, not to mention taking RPG and IED explosions...) and he said he developed a bi-polar condition. Sometimes you'd talk to him and he'd be on top of the world, the next he'd be so down in the dumps you worried about his safety. War fucking sucks. People often forget the non-fatal casualties, the maimed, physically and mentally. We owe them the most.

In regards to PTSD the documentary Baker Boys just finished airing here. It was scary how much war changed the guys on it. Being on the lookout for anything that could be a threat day in day out for however long their deployment is, then they have to go back to a normal life after all that time? Not surprised that more than a few said they had problems

quote:

Originally posted by saluyamo In regards to PTSD the documentary Baker Boys just finished airing here. It was scary how much war changed the guys on it. Being on the lookout for anything that could be a threat day in day out for however long their deployment is, then they have to go back to a normal life after all that time? Not surprised that more than a few said they had problems

A couple of my business partners friends are vets, did tours in Iraq, one a marine, the other US Army.

The Marine was on patrol in a city when another platoon called in a JDAM strike on the block right next to theirs, not knowing his squad was in that area.

A 500lb bomb went through a building next to them like 100m away. It didn't hurt anyone, but no one knew it was coming. Now any sudden sound just throws him for a loop. He was at his girl friends parents house or something like that and their toaster or microwave made a big noise when it was finished and he had to sit and watch the thing till it finished so he wouldn't freak out.

Also, both of them were at my business partners house for fourth of July a few years ago and a neighbor threw firecrackers on his lawn. Before he string of firecrackers was done my business partner was on the ground and physically covered by his two friends.

Crazy.

I know it is not the most realistic movie, but the end of The Hurt Locker was pretty intense, going from that insane world of combat to the now banal, almost surrealistic civilian world. That has to fuck with some people pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by Marcus Summers Did anybody here know a person that was killed in Iraq or Afghanistan, here? Not looking for an argument, just wondering how it has affected people.

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby A couple of my business partners friends are vets, did tours in Iraq, one a marine, the other US Army. The Marine was on patrol in a city when another platoon called in a JDAM strike on the block right next to theirs, not knowing his squad was in that area. A 500lb bomb went through a building next to them like 100m away. It didn't hurt anyone, but no one knew it was coming. Now any sudden sound just throws him for a loop. He was at his girl friends parents house or something like that and their toaster or microwave made a big noise when it was finished and he had to sit and watch the thing till it finished so he wouldn't freak out. Also, both of them were at my business partners house for fourth of July a few years ago and a neighbor threw firecrackers on his lawn. Before he string of firecrackers was done my business partner was on the ground and physically covered by his two friends. Crazy. I know it is not the most realistic movie, but the end of The Hurt Locker was pretty intense, going from that insane world of combat to the now banal, almost surrealistic civilian world. That has to fuck with some people pretty good.

Not to detract anything from how scary or how bad war is, and can be, a big part of the problem is how badly trained the normal (non-special force/elite) US troops are.

My brother in law is a luitenant in the Swiss army, machine gunners corps. As part fo a international training program, armies from around the world are invited to Switzerland to participate in training maneuvers etc, and when the US troops he was amazed how poorly trained and little real experience they had.

one particular exercise is to sit in a bunker while it's repeatedly hit with live ammo/shells - they had to stop the exercise just after it begah as the US troops were so freaked out they could not hold on.

So much apparently, is done in simulators, with recruits that aren't fit for combat in the first place.

war combat to real life will fuck people, but sending in untrained troops to a war zone does even more damage.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Daniel Day Lewis was in the way with My Left Foot.

You'll take any chance you get to hate on the left

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 Did you see Tropic Thunder???

The only good thing about that movie. But he was excellent in that role

quote:

Originally posted by WittyHandle You'll take any chance you get to hate on the left

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss absolutely brutal. one of the toughest movies to watch.

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1...th-of-july-role

quote:

What if Charlie Sheen had starred in 1989's "Born on the Fourth of July" instead of Tom Cruise? Sheen has claimed that director Oliver Stone originally offered him the film's star role as paralyzed Vietnam vet and activist Ron Kovic.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do you have doubts about the veracity of his testimony with regards to something so trivial?

There's plenty of reasons to doubt his testimony with regards to everything, given his history, surely?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but anyway, sure: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_al_Qaeda_name

Hmmm Wright himself is sceptical about the document and translation of it. From reading that page my thoughts are al Qaeda was certainly the name of a base, (it's literal translation?), and seems to be more a location more than an international terrorist organisation.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i dont think osama was particularly involved with the 1993 bombing, i think that was more KSM's scheme.

Agreed. I think the same of 9/11 though.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im not quite sure im following your point. even if the term AQ (al qaida for those in the cheap seats) wasn't used until after 911, uh, so what? (of course it was, if this lowly terrorism student had heard of it), but im curious where you're going with this.

No real point, just curiosity. Please don't put me into some 'CT' box and ridicule me mercilessly, I don't think 9/11 was an inside job. I think the testimony from al-Fadl and fitting al Qaeda in perfectly with the RICO act to charge and indict Bin Laden in absentia is a little too perfect, but the whole situation/events is/are irregular so you do what you can I guess.

Can I ask what/where you study, if you don't mind sharing?

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak There's plenty of reasons to doubt his testimony with regards to everything, given his history, surely?

with regards to such an irrelevant detail, i see no reason to doubt the origins of AQ's name.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Hmmm Wright himself is sceptical about the document and translation of it. From reading that page my thoughts are al Qaeda was certainly the name of a base, (it's literal translation?), and seems to be more a location more than an international terrorist organisation.

which is why we don't give too much credence to a single source. but now we have 3.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Agreed. I think the same of 9/11 though. Please don't put me into some 'CT' box and ridicule me mercilessly

sorry, these two comments do not compute. if you don't believe OBL and AQ were behind 911, and you're not an idiot "inside jobber", who was responsible?

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak I don't think 9/11 was an inside job. I think the testimony from al-Fadl and fitting al Qaeda in perfectly with the RICO act to charge and indict Bin Laden in absentia is a little too perfect, but the whole situation/events is/are irregular so you do what you can I guess.

sorry, i don't follow. bin laden was never charged or indicted for 911. indeed, that's a popular CT meme.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Can I ask what/where you study, if you don't mind sharing?

i graduated with hons in political theory from utas in 2001. half of my hons year was spent on terrorism and modern conflict. now, that's not remotely impressive (anyone can do an arts degree) but it was this part of my degree and a unit i took a year or two previously where al qaida was first a focal point of my education, well prior to 911, hence my amusement at assertions that AQ was not used until after.

i shared a room at "the shed" (where polsci hons students could study after hours, and in my case play yahoo chess) with a top bloke who was writing his dissertation on islamic extremism. naturally we discussed many issues, and obviously al qaida amongst them. the poor bastard was half-way through his thesis when 911 occurred, and had to make reasonably substantial re-writes due to his focus on the threats from islamic estremism being exaggerated. obviously he was probably right, but it wouldn't fly to hand in that idea only a couple of months afterwards, lol.

so yeah, im no expert but i certainly knew about AQ before 911, it took me less than 30 seconds on that tuesday night to name OBL and AQ as prime suspect*, which is apparently more than the truthers have managed in 10 years.

* edit: the exact quote 30 seconds after the tv channel went live to NY city was "looks like osama has been busy in the off-season".

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the poor bastard was half-way through his thesis when 911 occurred, and had to make reasonably substantial re-writes due to his focus on the threats from islamic estremism being exaggerated.

This made me LOL pretty hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk This made me LOL pretty hard.

i have to say i laughed quite a bit. the best part was i think he was the last person in the world to find out about the attacks, because he was on some hiking trip in the middle of nowhere, without access to phones or anything. our dissertation supervisor was calling him madly for like 3 or 4 days.

"uh Tom, you're gonna have to look at re-writing your thesis".
"wtf? what for?"
"pick up a newspaper."

hahaha. good times.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i have to say i laughed quite a bit. the best part was i think he was the last person in the world to find out about the attacks, because he was on some hiking trip in the middle of nowhere, without access to phones or anything. our dissertation supervisor was calling him madly for like 3 or 4 days. "uh Tom, you're gonna have to look at re-writing your thesis". "wtf? what for?" "pick up a newspaper." hahaha. good times.

On the day, I was being a dirty, hippy backpacker in Byron Bay. I walked into the main kitchen room in the morning and it was packed with crying people. I could see the TVs with the replays of Planes >>> Buildings, but it just registered in my head as some kind of movie

I didn't have to re-write shit

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk I didn't have to re-write shit

my main concern was how al qaida was gonna impact my plans for 12 months of unemployment in 2002.

quote:

Originally posted by Sushipunk On the day, I was being a dirty, hippy backpacker in Byron Bay. I walked into the main kitchen room in the morning and it was packed with crying people. I could see the TVs with the replays of Planes >>> Buildings, but it just registered in my head as some kind of movie I didn't have to re-write shit

I was in a caravan with a couple of mates, all stoned out of our minds. We were starting to get mad that Sports Tonight had been interrupted, discussing the merits of a younger Sandra Sully, when we saw the 2nd plane impact live on the picture over her left shoulder. Of course we screamed at her to turn around and check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN with regards to such an irrelevant detail, i see no reason to doubt the origins of AQ's name.

Not the origin of it's name, more it's form.

I think it's in OBLs interests to take it and run with it, after the fact.

Change a few words in the Tareek Osama and it's meaning is changed completely.

There's nothing about al Qaeda being referenced by the French?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sorry, these two comments do not compute. if you don't believe OBL and AQ were behind 911, and you're not an idiot "inside jobber", who was responsible?

KSM and some hardline followers, no doubt with a wider knowledge amongst the extremist community including Osama. I just don't believe there is a vast organisation with any true level of coordination, I hate the idea we can just lump all the bad guys together and call them al Qaeda. I would have thought if there is a real life KAOS out there it would have been in the fatwa, I mean we had al-Zawahiri signing as emir of Islamic Jihad, Ahmed Taha as part of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Mir Hamzah as secretary of Jamiat Ulema-e Pakistan and Fazul Raman as emir of HUJI-B.

As a group they called themselves the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, no mention of aQ individual to Oasama or collectively?

Meh I'm far less of an expert than you, maybe he wanted to keep it secret.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sorry, i don't follow. bin laden was never charged or indicted for 911. indeed, that's a popular CT meme.

When al Fadl testified in Jan 2001, about the 1998 Embassy bombings, for which he was charged and indicted I think?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so yeah, im no expert but i certainly knew about AQ before 911, it took me less than 30 seconds on that tuesday night to name OBL and AQ as prime suspect*, which is apparently more than the truthers have managed in 10 years. * edit: the exact quote 30 seconds after the tv channel went live to NY city was "looks like osama has been busy in the off-season".

With all respect, that doesn't make you correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Not the origin of it's name, more it's form.

i thought you said AQ's name didnt exist prior to 911?

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak I think it's in OBLs interests to take it and run with it, after the fact.

well of course, but what substantive difference does that make to 911 even if you're correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Change a few words in the Tareek Osama and it's meaning is changed completely.

again, im not following your reasoning. so far, us lazy researches have 3 sources mentioning AQ and its origins.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak There's nothing about al Qaeda being referenced by the French?

again, i need context for what you're asking. that link i provided mentioned a french quotation, not sure of the relevance specifically.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak KSM and some hardline followers, no doubt with a wider knowledge amongst the extremist community including Osama. I just don't believe there is a vast organisation with any true level of coordination, I hate the idea we can just lump all the bad guys together and call them al Qaeda.

well, that's probably a fair point. but again, i find the existence of labels rather secondary to the understanding that islamic extremists exist and that their cells, more or less, are associated with a loose collection of "players" that may have called themselves AQ at one time or another. obviously they don't possess the organisational rigidities we may be more familiar with elsewhere, but i find it curious to argue that they don't exist, when compared to the relative sophistication of the 911 attacks, easily the most elaborate plan ever successfully enacted.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak I would have thought if there is a real life KAOS out there it would have been in the fatwa, I mean we had al-Zawahiri signing as emir of Islamic Jihad, Ahmed Taha as part of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Mir Hamzah as secretary of Jamiat Ulema-e Pakistan and Fazul Raman as emir of HUJI-B.

sorry, its been a while and am well out of the loop concerning which towel-head is leading which army of johad. all i know is that OBL's arm of jihad was responsible for 911.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak When al Fadl testified in Jan 2001, about the 1998 Embassy bombings, for which he was charged and indicted I think?

oh right. i thought it was generally well established that AQ was linked to those bombings. i may be wrong but even if i am im not that concerned about which group of terrorists ultimately got blamed.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak With all respect, that doesn't make you correct.

of course not. the evidence (including bin laden's admissions) make me correct. whether we'll know precisely what everyone's roles were prior (minus the 19 hijackers of course) to the attacks is up for debate, but there really is no question which (loose-knit) organisation was ultimately responsible.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i thought you said AQ's name didnt exist prior to 911?

No, I didn't say that, I was just asking.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well of course, but what substantive difference does that make to 911 even if you're correct?

I was talking about aQ, not 9/11.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN again, i need context for what you're asking. that link i provided mentioned a french quotation, not sure of the relevance specifically.

The French quotation just said some dudes trained at a base, nothing bout al Qaeda?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, that's probably a fair point. but again, i find the existence of labels rather secondary to the understanding that islamic extremists exist and that their cells, more or less, are associated with a loose collection of "players" that may have called themselves AQ at one time or another. obviously they don't possess the organisational rigidities we may be more familiar with elsewhere, but i find it curious to argue that they don't exist, when compared to the relative sophistication of the 911 attacks, easily the most elaborate plan ever successfully enacted.

When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it wasn't really very elaborate. Bunch of noobs barely scrape into getting flight qualifications on simulators, board planes in bunches, hijack planes with boxcutters and somehow fly them into big towers. That's about it. The flying feats are the most astounding part, but not elaborate.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sorry, its been a while and am well out of the loop concerning which towel-head is leading which army of johad. all i know is that OBL's arm of jihad was responsible for 911.

You kind of missed the point, no matter.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course not. the evidence (including bin laden's admissions) make me correct. whether we'll know precisely what everyone's roles were prior (minus the 19 hijackers of course) to the attacks is up for debate, but there really is no question which (loose-knit) organisation was ultimately responsible.

Was there any evidence outside of his admissions? Maybe some Guantanamo guys fessed up?

what was your honours thesis on PKC?

Damn those Arabs and their hate for our freedom here.

Well if there's a video on youtube it must be true.

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 Well if there's a video on youtube it must be true.

You didnt even watch it did you?

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak When you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, it wasn't really very elaborate. Bunch of noobs barely scrape into getting flight qualifications on simulators, board planes in bunches, hijack planes with boxcutters and somehow fly them into big towers. That's about it. The flying feats are the most astounding part, but not elaborate.

yet still the most elaborate terrorist attack ever carried out.

quote:

Originally posted by Tweak Was there any evidence outside of his admissions? Maybe some Guantanamo guys fessed up?

you can find a collection of evidence here:

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7li...m%2Calqaedainfo

some links are broken, but you can use the titles as a basis for further searches if you wish.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.