TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- bashing America...
Pages (6): « 1 2 3 4 5 [6]

the actions and thoughts of all can be understood with this thought:

humans, like every other creature on this planet, are inherently selfish.

quote:

If I could die today to create a utopia for all who lived on, I could ask for no greater honor than the opportunity to do so.

except for this guy

the world's problems are the result of our pathetic species.

PS: i really enjoyed spending 2hrs of MY life reading this thread. [no sarcasm intended]

Hm, Arbiter... I dont understand what made u gain such a....let me not judge it but at least call it "special".. attitude towards life. What I concluded after reading your posts is that basically you dont regard your life as a personal gift but rather more as means to a ...higher goal. Similiar to the often-cited "brick in the wall" of civilization, or even nature in general. Now my philosophy is that either everything is based on a super-logical plan..or that nothing makes sense and everything is plain coincidence, luck whatever. It cant be a mixture of both... And in both cases I came to the conclusion that the point is to make the best out of it(life that is), cause u cant change anything anyway. So personally I'm lucky to get the chance to be what I am, at least for this little little little period of time on that little little little place, called earth. So why the hell should I think about actually sacrifice myself and throw this gift away for something I wont witness anyway.And the ones who will benefit...argh who cares.
Hehe...Point is, follow the cliche of "live the life to the fullest" cause at the end of the day..there's nothing more true.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Hm, Arbiter... I dont understand what made u gain such a....let me not judge it but at least call it "special".. attitude towards life. What I concluded after reading your posts is that basically you dont regard your life as a personal gift but rather more as means to a ...higher goal. Similiar to the often-cited "brick in the wall" of civilization, or even nature in general. Now my philosophy is that either everything is based on a super-logical plan..or that nothing makes sense and everything is plain coincidence, luck whatever. It cant be a mixture of both... And in both cases I came to the conclusion that the point is to make the best out of it(life that is), cause u cant change anything anyway. So personally I'm lucky to get the chance to be what I am, at least for this little little little period of time on that little little little place, called earth. So why the hell should I think about actually sacrifice myself and throw this gift away for something I wont witness anyway.And the ones who will benefit...argh who cares. Hehe...Point is, follow the cliche of "live the life to the fullest" cause at the end of the day..there's nothing more true.

It is my belief that all humans deserve a better life than the one they live in this world now. I could be a happy person simply living out my life, with no purpose but to experience as much momentary pleasure as I could before I died, but I would be so much more satisfied on my deathbed if I knew that I had played a part, however small, in making the world a better place for people in the future, to help secure for them that which I believe they deserve. I guess to some extent, I just believe that it is better to give than to receive. I want to die an honorable death, a death that serves some purpose rather than merely marking the end of my life. Otherwise, I will feel that I have squandered my life - it will be as if I never lived.

Cheers,

Arbiter

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It is my belief that all humans deserve a better life than the one they live in this world now. I could be a happy person simply living out my life, with no purpose but to experience as much momentary pleasure as I could before I died, but I would be so much more satisfied on my deathbed if I knew that I had played a part, however small, in making the world a better place for people in the future, to help secure for them that which I believe they deserve. I guess to some extent, I just believe that it is better to give than to receive. I want to die an honorable death, a death that serves some purpose rather than merely marking the end of my life. Otherwise, I will feel that I have squandered my life - it will be as if I never lived. Cheers, Arbiter

i can see you want purpose in your life but my theory stands. i pondered over possible motives why you would want to sacrifice yourself and came up with a desire to be immortalised. i ask you, would you do the same thing if no-one in the world knew that you did it?

quote:

Originally posted by dr me i ask you, would you do the same thing if no-one in the world knew that you did it?

Certainly. While recieving credit for whatever good I am able to do would be an added bonus, the good deed is its own reward. More than being an issue of what others think of me, it's an issue of my own personal pride in being able to be a positive influence.

quote:

Originally posted by AAzn_ScratcH U.S. government DESERVED the 9-11 attack the American people didn't. New York is one of the nicest places to live in my opinion. But you really have asshole politicians with big mouths that can't shut the fuck up

the US Government is made up of people| please dont post such absurd comments, this thread was not created for utter bullshit|

>JM<

quote:

However, in the case of Iraq, for instance, any benefits the people could gain through the provision additional technology would almost certainly be subverted to a select few. Similarly, Iraq's resources cannot be used to efficiently sustain its population so long as those resources are being monopolized by a corrupt government.

However, the solution to this problem - in the current context - is to simply replace Hussein's regime with another Sunni-Islam one, only it will merely be more "US-Friendly" this time round I presume. The trouble is, Hussein's current Sunni regime is quite secular by Middle-Eastern standards, and if the subsequent regime is more extreme - both religiously and politically - than the current one, then I'd suspect that over time the problem would get even worse.

A more extreme Sunni regime would be even more likely to persecute the Shiite and Kurdish people than Hussein. Then again, even if they are of the more moderate variety, there is no saying the new Sunni government would be any more lenient towards the Kurdish and Shiite populations, who together are far greater in numbers than the Iraqi Sunni population. However, the US government doesn't want to give power to the Shiite majority simply because they are mindful of the possibility of them being sypatheitc towards the Iranian Shiite cause, even though the implementation of a Shiite government - by virtue of the sheer number of Shiite Iraqi's - would be better for Iraq overall.

This is the kinda thing I'm talking about :

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/news/...3_majority.html

quote:

This does not, however, mean that we ought to allow as many humans to live as possible, because although it might be sustainable, it is far from optimal.

But that was the point I was trying to make in my other post: if you think there are currently too many human beings on this planet, and you will gladly will the death of others, then I ask you, will you happily sacrifice your life right now for the good of the planet? If not, why should you expect Iraqi's to?

Population control, I believe, is important, but the sanctity of human life supercedes all that. Once an indivual has been cast into existence, he should be free to have complete sanctity over his own body and his own life, so far as we can make that possible.

Population is better controlled through the increased awareness of contraception and abortion. Once someone attains their own existence, we have no right to say whether they live or die.

quote:

I think that's pretty spurious.

Thanks.

(Sorry, obscure Simpsons reference).

quote:

Overpopulation is not so much a world problem as it is a regional problem.

So long as we continue to consider these issues in terms of region and race - as opposed to our global humanity - then yes, you're probably right.

But why do we consider these issues in such terms though? If we're going to divide the human race up into regions, where do we draw the line and say "this is where we start giving a shit"? At national level? At state level? Up to the end of our street perhaps?

It may sound hopelessly idealistic, but their problem - by association of our common humanity - is our problem.

quote:

The issue of whether death is good or bad should not be resolved by assuming it is good or assuming it is bad. It should be resolved by assuming neither and allowing neither belief to affect your actions.

But now I'm confused: if the sanctity of human life is not the greatest of all our aims - nor the aim to which all other aims are subservient - then what aim is more important? Why are we having this discussion on an invasion of Iraq - whether it stands to benefit American or Iraqi lives - if human life comes second to some other goal?

If we are not operating under the belief that human life is worth preserving, then what beliefs are left?

quote:

Since I don't assume death is good, I would have no reason to kill someone as a favor to them, but also, since I don't assume death is bad, I would have no reason to preserve their life as a favor to them.

Once again, that's an obscenely abstract perspective, and one not likely to benefit the current plight of the Iraqi people, nor anyone else for that matter.

Perhaps death is more favourable than the state of living, but few people are willing to sacrifice their lives to find out. Without getting overly philosophical, death - so far as we can tell - is merely a state of infinite non-existence, or nothingness. Once one is dead, there is no coming back. It is a final, irreversable choice - by murdering someone or by committing suicide you prematurely destroy a tiny fragment of existence that can never exist henceforth. There is a point - to be sure - where the pain of life becomes less desirable than the finality of death, but it is up to the individual to decide where that point lies (which is why I am for the legalisation of euthanasia and suicide). However, to murder someone or to allow them to die (when you have the opportunity to save them) against their will is to actively will a state of nothingness - and to be sure, in this sense, to murder and to allow to die amounts to the same thing. Perhaps read Heidegger's views on death and "nothingness" (nothingness being a very big part of his philosophy) to understand why realisation of what death (more restrictively) and Nothingness (more broadly) entail, to understand exactly why we should do what we can to preserve existence.

Once again, if you can happily will the death of others (doing nothing to help them when you have the ability to amounting to the same thing) and yet continue to eschew death yourself, then I may once again refer you to Satre and his concept of Mauvaise Fois to show you exactly where you're going wrong.

quote:

Your accusation of "existential hypocracy" (which is a tu quoque fallacy, I might point out), fails to recognize several important differences between me and an Iraqi citizen, but I don't think I ought to waste space further refuting an argument which is fallacious at its very base.

From a logical standpoint, my accusation is quite valid.

Hypocracy suggests the notion of preaching one set of values and living another. By definition, wherever the contradiction lies between these differing set of values, only one may be true, not both. Thus, either what you are saying is logically valid, or what you are doing is logically valid, but not both. And that's all hypocracy amounts to: either change what you say or change what you do, otherwise at least one of the two are - by definition of what we can say about contrary statements never being true at the same time - at least in part false.

Furthermore, what exactly are the differences between you and an Iraqi citizen? Are they that great that you are each subject to an entirely different set of rights?

quote:

Of course! I live happily in the United States, a country that came into its very existence by means of winning a war in which a large amount of people had to die unwillingly. For that matter, who dies willingly - only those who commit suicide. So certainly I can be happy living in a world that is able to exist precisely because people, animals, plants, and bacteria are constantly dying unwillingly. And if their deaths served to allow for a true utopia, I could hardly think of a more honorable death those people could ask for. If I could die today to create a utopia for all who lived on, I could ask for no greater honor than the opportunity to do so.

But then you had no say who fought in the two major wars that defined modern day American life. You had no say in whether Joe Brown went off and secured the state of your existence 200 years later: how can you be held morally responsible for his death?

On the other hand, as it stands right now, you do have some say - regardless of how small - in whether others die for your personal benfit. To be sure, an American victory in Iraq will bring benefits to the American public, if only for the short to mid-term availablity of oil. And this is what I'm saying: would you will the deaths of these Iraqi civilians to enhance the quality of your own life, to bring the nature of your own existence that little bit closer to some concept of utopia? And then, if you say, that a war on Iraq cannot enhance your quality of life at all, then the question must be raised, why do you will their deaths (or not oppose them at least - though it amounts to the same thing)? If you argue that it is because of the enhanced quality of life of Iraqi civilians, then it would seem to go against the utilitarianistic philosophy you so consciously restrict to your own region - so which is it then? Why should we go to war with Iraq? Or if, as you say, you oppose a war with Iraq, then by which principles are you basing it on, given that you don't seem to agree that we should to some lengths to preserve human life?

quote:

While it is apparent that I disagree with you on many matters, I do appreciate your intelligent response.

Right back atcha.

It's good to see that we can declare our disagreements on an intellectual level, rather than on a distinctly personal level.

its great fun, fuck off you yanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Dumonde Trancer its great fun, fuck off you yanks.

absurd one liners such as the one above helped increase your post count to 8,000?

lame

>JM<

Wow ... I missed a lot in a week. Anyway Renegade you made some excellent points and unfortunately I don't have enough time to do a crapload of research to come up with counterarguments before the topic dies hehe.

In retrospect I really do think the US should simply abandon the region. I think we can get the oil imports from the middle east (approximately 20% of our imports) elsewhere around the world and compensate with alternative fuels. Israel should be able to take care of itself now ... and I'm sick of the resentment we get in general. Maybe we should ressurrect the isolationism we had back in the 1900s ... at least we didn't have such a bad rep.

SADDAM HUSSEIN IS A MAD MAN...

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

GET RID OF HIM AND THE WORLD WILL BE A BETTER PLACE.

CASE CLOSED

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Wow ... I missed a lot in a week. Anyway Renegade you made some excellent points and unfortunately I don't have enough time to do a crapload of research to come up with counterarguments before the topic dies hehe. In retrospect I really do think the US should simply abandon the region. I think we can get the oil imports from the middle east (approximately 20% of our imports) elsewhere around the world and compensate with alternative fuels. Israel should be able to take care of itself now ... and I'm sick of the resentment we get in general. Maybe we should ressurrect the isolationism we had back in the 1900s ... at least we didn't have such a bad rep.

ah haah!

now theres an interesting statement. fact: Norway is the worlds number 3 oil producing country in the world, but is the US's #8 supplier - theres your oil right there. alternative fuels are becoming viable now as well, and they are a necessary step in the future - why not sooner rather than later?

isolationism is interesting too. the world likes to complain about the US, but our success has come from our inability not to get drawn into world affairs, esp ~100 yrs ago and to the present. its an interesting idea, but not likely, and possibly devastating for those who profess to hate us and fail to see themselves as intrinsically linked to the US. late|

I FRIGGIN LOVE MY COUNTRY - GOD BLESS THE USA

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisble, with liberty and justice for all....PLAY BALL!

So JM your defending America eh!?!? Well i dont really disagree. Theve got problems and a bit of violence in the mix. However EVERY country has a bloody,violent past. Kinda ties into human nature I guess. IM wondering why u started this thred tho. People do have a right to "free speech' dont they? Isnt that American? Even without proof of statement right?? Just because u may not like them doesnt really mean there "ignorant" or "(immature)". Perhaps joining or creating a forum that only admits supported opinions so u can have a suposedly "mature" debate would solve this problem??

Being Canadian i look at America as a similar nation but lacking healthcare and international news coverage. This sux cuz people i meet in america only tend to know about whats going on in there back yards and the one or two things going on in the news. CASE IN POINT. When OJ and Tonia Harding (who cares how u spell her name) were in the news there was a massive slaughter in Ruwanda and 1 million people were killed. HOWEVER NOBODY CARED AND I DIDNT SEE THE US NEWS TALK ABOUT THAT FOR EVEN 10 MINS BUT THE OJ TRIAL GETS MONTHS OF COVERAGE FFS. 1 mill vs 1 nichole and 1 stupid skater. HOW PATHETIC IS THAT. Maybee im crazy but i think a nation that is a powerfull as the US which plays such a huge part in the world should at least inform its people of 1 million deaths. Other than that America is a cool place too live. OH YA THEVE GOT PISSTANKLOADS OF $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ITs sooooo easy to come by down there its not even funny. MAkes all my hard work in Canada seem like a joke. : )

oh ya JM wants proof of claim.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0613/p09s02-coop.html
The end of the article says it all.

- Yeah, thats true, America lacks International, and even wide national coverage, unless you watch FOX NEWS, CNN, ar ABC, CBS ALL DAY!!!!!!! In that matter I like BBC. ANd I lived in CHile for 11 years, they even do better with the news.

Well Chicagoland does get commercial free BBC world on a local channel/ you can sorta watch on their webpage. Some differences come to mind when CNN and BBC cover the same story. The BBC didn't mute out a alleged terroist saying something along the lines of this is simply politics while he was walking handcuffed to a cop car, and you hear foreign politicians speeches for more then a 'importent' phrase. BBC tends to show injured/dead far more explicitly. It also tends to just cover a subject in a couple minutes time in a decent manner rather then dragging it out showing lots of fancy graphics/text on the screen every 30s. The biggest diffence as you mentioned already is the limited international coverage on CNN.

Wow, this thread got resurrected out of the blue ... hehe let's hope it peacefully dies again.

I don't even bother reading the 'news' anymore...

I go to certain sites to obtain facts on what happened that day, and dont read the opinions.. and then I look here for whats REALLY going on ... and try to piece together the truth ...

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.