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-- The illegal war is on :: denounce America’s imperialism !
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quote:

Originally posted by Tudo Beleza Ok this may stark flame war, but you guys say IRaq and other arab countries are not really fit for democracies and are better under Monarchies, i just wonder why that is? I am not arguging just thought you guys could shed some light on it.

Because civil participation in society is a prerequisite for democracy. Without it, democracy gets hijacked by crazy promises.

As for Iraq being governed by a monarchy since the dawn of time, check where the last monarchy to govern Iraq came from. A UK-friendly prince from Arabia. Prior to that, Turkish (Ottoman) control.

quote:

Originally posted by Guvaholic You guys should be thanking Bush for saving all of us from a deadly threat.

Rrrrright... and how in the hell is Saddam such a deadly threat to us, or the world peace? The fact that he has some deadly chemical weapons in his possession does not make him dangerous! If that was the case, US and other 10 countries with nuclear power/chemical weapons should be disarmed first...

God is great, and let the losers lose. Let Iraq live. Long live Jihad and long live Palestine.


Ahh, yes, the Umma. Used in this case to draw Israel into conflict.



Another note on Arab unity:
If the other Arab nations were so firmly behind Saddam, then OPEC (composed primarily of Arab nations, which in turn are primarily, but not exclusively Muslim) wouldn't be so eager to keep the taps flowing to make up for the war-induced shortfall in production.

Fuck, I don't know who I'm arguing against, or what point I'm trying to make. It should be pretty clear by now that once things get to the point of open hostilities (in most situations) mistakes have been made and unreasonable stances have been taken by both sides.

I'll quote Winston Churchill (who some accused of being a warmonger) on this one:

"Jaw jaw is better than war war."
-Any amount of talking is ultimately better than killing.


But of course, I leave it up to the others here to point out why even that is wrong. However, if you give up peaceful co-operation as the basic premise under which people are to relate to one another, you are teetering toward the belief that Might Makes Right, which is more or less where we stand now in this unipolar world with one Empire posing as a republic.


God, that's almost as senseless as some of the drivel I have spouted off in my semi-intellectual babbling at parties.

Wurm.....u make some excellent statements..just thought id mention that

They are actually dropping bombs on Baghdad. On the CITY!!!
Ancient city that has history which hold historical marvels. Not to mention people. This are sad times for humanity. Sad times indeed.

a little humor

Finally a joke that explains what it's like to be Canadian...
>Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for
>six days. Eventually, Michael the archangel found him, resting on the
>seventh day. He inquired of God, "Where have you been?" God sighed a deep
>sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds,
>"Look Michael, look what I've made."
>Archangel Michael looked puzzled and said, "What is it?"
>"It's a planet," replied God, "and I've put LIFE on it. I'm going to call it
>Earth and it's going to be a place of great balance." "Balance?" inquired
>Michael, still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of Earth
>"For example, Northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth
>while Southern Europe is going to be poor; the Middle East over there
>will be a hot spot. Over there I've placed a continent of white people and
>over there is a continent of black people," God continued, pointing to
>different countries. "This one will be extremely hot and arid while this
>one will be very cold and covered in ice."
>The Archangel, impressed by Gods work, then pointed to a large
>landmass in the top corner and asked, "What's that one?" "Ah," said God.
>"That's Canada, the most glorious place on Earth. There are beautiful
>mountains, lakes, rivers, streams and an exquisite coastline. The people
>from Canada are going to be modest, intelligent and humorous and they're
>going to be found travelling the world. They'll be extremely sociable, hard
>working and high achieving, and they will be known throughout the world
>as diplomats and carriers of peace. I'm also going to give them super-human,
>undefeatable ice hockey players who will be admired and feared by all who
>come across them."
>Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then proclaimed;
>"What about balance, God? You said there will be BALANCE!"
>God replied wisely.
>"Wait until you see the loud-mouth bastards I'm putting next to them...."

quote:

Originally posted by fantom Rrrrright... and how in the hell is Saddam such a deadly threat to us, or the world peace? The fact that he has some deadly chemical weapons in his possession does not make him dangerous! If that was the case, US and other 10 countries with nuclear power/chemical weapons should be disarmed first...

when was the last time that the US or any other nations with chemical/nuclear weapons used them in combat??

Iraq's last time was the 80s, that wouldnt make me feel safe if i lived within range of the cruise missiles he says doesn't have, yet has used 6 times since the onset of the war.

quote:

Originally posted by DiS They are actually dropping bombs on Baghdad. On the CITY!!! Ancient city that has history which hold historical marvels. Not to mention people. This are sad times for humanity. Sad times indeed.

there are some bad ppl in that city, they are being targeted, not random places or worship...also, most archeological and/or historic landmarks are not hit due to the accuracy that no other army possesses.

also, i don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but world opinion counts for shit in this situation...the world does not live in a terror target zone. the chances of American and Israeli casualties from this, and i have many more adjectives for it, obnoxious jihad are much greater than that of middle-eastern terror breeding states or Europe, or Asia, or anywhere on this globe...so why would these "Zionists" who are scared for their children's lives on the fuking schoolbus give a damn about protests in parts of the world which are obviously less affected?

one obvious reason is Oil (Wealth), but don't you think think there are any others? if you don't, then you are pretty narrowminded.

i dont get it.....are u for or against the war oceanlab???

Instead of putting this in the midst of a big reply, i'm just going to flat out ask all the people out there who oppose getting rid of Saddam especially the people who have lived in or grown up in or have excellent knowlege of the region: Are you saying that you would rather have Iraqis - Innocent and maybe even in some cases, relatives of yours - KILLED by a unstable, lunatic than for the US and co. to come in and get rid of the man holding everyone over there back? I can't beleive that I you would want that to happen instead of having someone come in and forcibly remove him from power.


So everyone over there hates the USA right? Well, why has one WHOLE division (around 1000 people) surrendered to the british and US forces? The guy who posted all those pictures a couple of pages ago...well, I don't know what he was trying to get at but in all those pictures, I don't see anything out of the ordinary happening. They are following out exact rules pertaining to POWs as set out by the Geneva Convention...An accord that I doubt that your friend Saddam will follow if he captures any Coalition member. You know, sometimes I wish that we would leave Iraq alone only to see its population diminish and the country turn into a deserted wasteland but then I think, well, Soon when Iraq is in good shape because Saddam is gone, I wonder who the Iraqi people will be thanking, the people who helped free them from the reins of a ruthless dictator or will they be thanking the people that opposed this from happening?

^^^^^

3 questions...

1. what does USA alone gain in helping the "distressed Iraqi people"?things like war cost billions and billions....if one were to think from a corporate point of view, nothing is done for the benifit only of one party

2. could someone please show some authentic, unbiased, reliable source of information to prove that Hussein has killed people for no reason over thepast 12 years?

3. Why is Iraq all of a sudden such a great threat to the world when Osama bin Laden isnt captured or killed(the way the americans prefer him to be)inspite of over 12 months of US troops being in afghanistan?

3 answers

1. If someone says that there is no economic benefits to removing Saddam from power, then they are kidding themselves. By removing Saddam, it will make that region more stable than it is right now. The US already imports oil from that region. They do it in exchange for food. By removing Saddam from power, they potentially may gain a trading PARTNER. Also, are you really that fucking cynical taht you think that noone would ever do anything to help out persectued civilians? This isn't the first time this had happened. I mean, look at Kosovo, NATO went in and help defend against the brutal ethnic cleansing that was going on. Kosovo (and most likely, the rest of the Balkans), would not be a very substantial trading partner. I still have some belief that people still look out for eachother in times of need.

2. http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/co...7%5e401,00.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...9114012232.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...5/24/wirq24.xml
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/21/sprj.irq.safwan/index.html

3. Bin Laden should have been found by now and I'm quite dissapointed to see that he hasn't been. Osama is just as bad as Saddam, it's just that Saddam is a bit easier to find because he is a bit more public ("hey guys! i'm in Iraq!"). Osama will eventually be caught.


Has the american goverment over the past 20 years or so made mistakes in my opinion? Yes they have. Saddam should have been dealt with more severely after the first Gulf War. But still, the fact that they and the rest of the coalition are finally acting and deposing of Saddam means that they are still truely committed to protecting people's freedoms.

Now LKD, I ask you to answer my question:

quote:

... I'm just going to flat out ask all the people out there who oppose getting rid of Saddam especially the people who have lived in or grown up in or have excellent knowlege of the region: Are you saying that you would rather have Iraqis - Innocent and maybe even in some cases, relatives of yours - KILLED by a unstable, lunatic than for the US and co. to come in and get rid of the man holding everyone over there back?

. War is always a worst case scenario. It's only because of the UNSC that diplomacy has failed and that it has come to this.

Diplomacy didn't fail, democracy did.

quote:

Originally posted by DiS Diplomacy didn't fail, democracy did.

Ahhhhhhhhh wait...wait for it...














You hear it?
The sound of Marx yelling at the top of his lungs. Weeeeeeeee.


(and what a shocker, me being Greek/Cypriot should be supporting democracy as it was invented in Greece, but today it has been twisted...I want a common ground damn it! Democracy currently is NOT the most perfect way to run the world as the Us Gov would have you believe, it is a good way but by all means not the best. It has many many many faults. Ie poverty as a side affect.) I don't know where that came from but it was just me venting. If it makes no sense then ignore it...I doubt I'll be able to explain it again unless it's in person and I remember?

Yeah you're right. The democracy in the UNSC failed. The world has been working for 12 years on a diplomatic solution without any results. None will come through diplomatic channels and it's time another way of dealing with the conflict is looked at.

That was not my point. It was rather that the US has failed in terms of looking at things democractically by instead of taking into account what everyone else around it is saying (other countries and the people who are protesting) they are going it "alone".

When will the world see the light???
It saddens me greatly that it is now 2003 and shit like this is still happening.

Why is it that countries are singled out to disarm their weapons, yet other countries are allowed to expand and build their armies to astronomic proportions?

The ENTIRE world needs to disarm, this is so fucking pathetic, the entire human race is pathetic. When will we learn that this won't solve anything in the long run, this is bound to only cause more conflict.

This war will only be successful in creating tension between nations, it has already started.......I hope to GOD this ends soon, and that no more conflict results.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray_Finkle By removing Saddam, it will make that region more stable than it is right now.

I disagree.

it is possible to have a bad regime and a stable region and no government / puppet government with an unstable region.

quote:

Originally posted by USMC_Greg The war is legal, and I'm happy it started

I think so too, after 15 years of saying yes to the inspectors , Iraq
wouldnt just desarm in one year. I dont think this is the war against
the iraqi peopleor muslims(just listen to them, i have some friends-iraqis),this is the war against Saddam and his Regime. In this war i am totally behind USA.

quote:

...I'm just going to flat out ask all the people out there who oppose getting rid of Saddam especially the people who have lived in or grown up in or have excellent knowlege of the region: Are you saying that you would rather have Iraqis - Innocent and maybe even in some cases, relatives of yours - KILLED by a unstable, lunatic than for the US and co. to come in and get rid of the man holding everyone over there back?

so Ray Finkle...have u ever lived in the middle east?

I thought so...


I did...i lived in the most liberal of all arab nations, namely in United Arab Emirates. I was thre during thefirst gulf war. it was a terrifying period of time even tho UAE didnt participate in the war, since Iraq, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Oman are all around it.


if u should know, Hussein doesnt perform acts of genocide. he might be supporting families in palestine and down with the war against israel but thats only in opposition to America.

If u have been following the news lately..not cnn but CBC which is unbiased...the Jordanians are absolutely pissed off with America cos Jordan and Iraq are like one country with all the trade and ties they have.

About the "being killed by american troops" bit..ur so fuckin pathethic to support the idea of being killed in the first place... tell me if u would like to be killed by a friend or someone u just met who u dont have any beef with.

hmm now why is America the most hated country in the world that all the acts of terrorism lately are against Americans???think about that...

wait ill answer it for u....because they stick their fuckin nose in everyone elses business to get popularity as being redeemers in the world.

We are pretty fortunate here in Canada. We get to criticize America, yet our quality of life is directly tied to the existence of a superpower next door. Like it or not, it's pretty hard to avoid US cultural influence either.

Ol P.E.T had something to say about that relationship. Like sleeping with an elephant. The flipside is that the lions don't come near you if you're sleeping with a pachyderm.

Hypothesis: Were it not for the existence of a great military power to the south, would we reap such a large 'peace dividend'? Would we not have to spend more on national defence, diverting funds from other social programs?

Hmm.....I didn't think it was possible but you managed to misread my entire post.

First off, I've never lived in the middle east which would have appeared evident by the wording of that question. Second, I would consider the gassing of quite a few of one large ethnic group(the Kurdish people) to be close enough to genocide. Thirdly, you're kidding yourself if you think that any one newsmedia source is unbiased nevertheless if you provide me with a source, I'd be happy to believe you. Not that Jordanian public opinion matters considering they are not involved. Besides, what makes you think that trade with Jordan once a new goverenment is in place would all of a sudden stop? I would believe that Jordan would see quite a bit of increase once they have a reasonble trading partner.

quote:

About the "being killed by american troops" bit..ur so fuckin pathethic to support the idea of being killed in the first place... tell me if u would like to be killed by a friend or someone u just met who u dont have any beef with.

Huh? were you reading my post? I didn't ask anywhere in that post who would you rather have kill you which is what I think you interpreted from it. Of course I don't support the idea of killing innocent people in this war and everyother war. Too bad Saddam doesn't share the same sort of compassion or else he would have followed INTERNATIONAL demands to exile the country. Also, you didn't answer my question,

quote:

... I'm just going to flat out ask all the people out there who oppose getting rid of Saddam especially the people who have lived in or grown up in or have excellent knowlege of the region: Are you saying that you would rather have Iraqis - Innocent and maybe even in some cases, relatives of yours - KILLED by a unstable, lunatic than for the US and co. to come in and get rid of the man holding everyone over there back?

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