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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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| Originally posted by cronodevir And you claime that for the first time in human history, an airplane brought a building down. |
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| Originally posted by cronodevir Without actually haveing and evidence to suggest that, other than a few staged videos by cnn. |
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Not to mention you were in australia, and i was there, on 9/11. |
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CALLING FOR MORE ACTIVE INVOLVEMENT of the structural engineer in fire protection design and ``extensive'' additional study of the performance of the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, an American Society of Civil Engineers' building performance study will not recommend changes to building codes at this time. Having decided that the plane attacks and subsequent fires doomed the twin towers to destruction, the engineering community is shifting attention to clearing up mysteries swirling around the behavior of nearby buildings damaged by the collapses, to extend lessons learned to general building practice. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN irrelevant. whether it has occured 1000 times or never before. sorry, whats this then? peer reviewed structural analysis of WTC collapses published article in "journal of engineering mechanics" an article from civil engineering i dont expect you to have the capacity to understand the distinct differences between a youtube video and something that must pass the rigours of scientific peer-review. keep going kid. right. which is why you're such an expert on the nazi holocaust too? coz you were there...fucking hypocrite. get an education you intellectually malnourished waste of space. link now, show me why i should be listening to your ramblings over what the american society of civil engineers happens to think. you know, since you've obviously researched this topic long and hard! |
why can't we all just get along?
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| Originally posted by cronodevir Lol@the source of the links you posted. A .pdf file..and two join sites...are you secretly trying to get people to join websites? I think you are. LOl. Why must i 'subscribe' to see this 'evidence' you claime to have? |
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A .pdf file.. |
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Further more, why don't we go into further detail as to the credability of said sites? LEt me go digg up some info. |
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The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News: Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001). That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors. I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove its hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "theory of intelligent design" except on Christian web sites, there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books." |
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Again, you have failed to provide any evidence that on 9/11 two airplanes brought down to massive skyscrapers. |
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Not to mention your claimes contradict nearly every single witness to the event. What they saw, and what the heard. |
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Must go through rigours scientific review? Which scienctists reviewed this information? |
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Editor: Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder [email protected] http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/facult...ple.cgi?corotis Editorial Board: Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego http://kudu.ucsd.edu/ Henri Gavin, Duke University http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/ Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/ Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/ Nicos Makris, University of Patras http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep...en.asp?profid=5 Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calenda...ademicAlpha.htm Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/facul...aculty_list.htm Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592 George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff...iadjis_Gbio.htm Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/facult...e/people.cgi?xi Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/ James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/ Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354...ategory&op=show Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact Journal of Engineering Mechanics |
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As scientists have differing of opinion on this matter. |
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So far, all you managed to do was post links to a shady join site. Which gives no names or anything. No way to bakcground check the people involved in these articles. |
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why can't we all just get along? |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fair points mate. its just that your usage of tags "THE Government" lends itself to a very different interpretation. im sure you'll agree that this misunderstanding is easily possible. therefore, we can reach a compromise where you can be a little more narrow in your field of vision, and instead of saying "the government", use a particular agency? makes it a little easier to swallow, because i just dont buy the fact that scientists and engineers that are employed by the government are somehow in on the conspiracy. to be honest, i prefer much narrower topics of discussion. there is so much (mis)information out there that i prefer sticking to things that are irrefutable- ie buildings fell down. because without a plausible argument that shows how demolition is possible, the theory fails pretty badly. im not that interested in the other parts of the conspiracies to be honest. im not here to debate the administration's possible "aiding and abetting", im more concerned with the theories that revolve around pre-set explosives because the analysis from the truth movement is so very poor. the most ludicrous assumptions are made and accepted with little or no logical inquiry. such as cronodevir's statements; he makes assumptions about explosives with no understanding of how explosives (or demolitions for that matter) actually work. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X How about I be even more specific and just call whatever rogue faction it is the "Shadow Government." |
alright, the shadowy government it is haha.| quote: |
| Originally posted by Trancer-X That way there will be less confusion for you even though those who carried it out did seem to rely on a lot of unsuspecting but well meaning, honest government employees who were just doing their jobs by performing simulated war games that day. I'll bet the grand majority of the people at the DHS, FEMA, the DoD, NORAD, the FAA, etc., had no clue that someone was going to make one of them go live. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_ga...tember_11,_2001 |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Oh, and the title of this thread is "Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?" It's quite a broad topic so we're definitely including everything here, circumstantial evidence included. You can start your own thread if you really need to focus. Nobody's going to stop you. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no they don't. your side doesn't have a single accredited engineer, and nobody that has produced anything even approaching peer review and been published. hint: steven jones' paper isn't worth the paper its printed on til review. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X So if someone hasn't written a peer reviewed paper on X, that means that X didn't happen? Is that really the logic that you're using? |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Either way, there are a considerable amount of engineers who don't agree with the "official" cover story. Hopefully once more of them come out of the woodwork they will find the courage to write a peer reviewed paper without worrying about some form of reprisal. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Anyway, here are a few that have gone on record: Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth http://www.ae911truth.org/ |
the fact that the frontpage includes things i know not to be true (regarding WTC7) kind've undermines any credibility these "experts" have.
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN see, and you wonder why i thought you were a quasi-anarchist alright, the shadowy government it is haha. |
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i suppose this is why i prefer the discussions regarding the bombs in the towers. much less work proving that theory wrong you see |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN not at all. but my position is that those that believe the conspiracy of government so very strongly should explain to me why they feel justified in ignoring all the scientific data examined and prepared by acknowledged experts in the field? i find it really disingenuous to be parroting (not directed at you btw) people like steven jones, but ignoring the WEALTH of data and reviewed research by actual engineers. |
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in the world of academia, it is far scarier to write a paper that your contemporaries will laugh at, than it is to post science that might be unpopular with a transient government. |
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that second site looks like a nice cut and paste job from others the fact that the frontpage includes things i know not to be true (regarding WTC7) kind've undermines any credibility these "experts" have.i'll get colonelcrisp to look up these so-called "engineers". the last time he looked at a list of people like this it was quite an embarrassment for culurot. ie members that have been disbarred, or dont actually have the qualifications supposed. sheesh. i re-read the sidebar regarding WTC7. there are so many lies and untruths in that its disgraceful. could you find me a list of AE members so colonel can look them up? that would be handy |
SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH ASSAILED
Members and movement attacked from several directions
Madison, WI (PRWEB) September 9, 2006 --- Three professors who are members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth have been threatened with the loss of their positions for their research and teaching about the events of 9/11. Other attacks are coming from national magazines, such as TIME and U.S. NEWS, which have cover-stories this week suggesting that those who believe 9/11 involved a conspiracy may need psychological counseling. In addition, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Popular Mechanics have published pieces intended to bolster the official account of 9/11.
�This flurry of activity suggests that the government is becoming desperate in its efforts to keep the truth about 9/11 from the American people,� said James H. Fetzer, the founder and co-chair of the society. �But I don�t think it�s working.� Fetzer finds attacks on faculty members, including Kevin Barrett, a humanities instructor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, Bill Woodward, a professor of psychology at the University of New Hampshire, and Steven Jones, a physics professor at Brigham Young University and the society�s co-chair, especially disturbing.
�According to the government, 9/11 is �the pivotal event of the 21st century,� which changed everything�, he observed. �So it obviously deserves to be studied. College and universities are the institutions that undertake the study of significant historical events. The very idea that faculty should not be studying the events of 9/11 verges on the absurd,� he remarked. �And since the official account-that the events of 9/11 involved 19 Islamic fundamentalists hijacking four commercial airliners and perpetrating terrorist acts under control of a man in a cave in Afghanistan-involves a conspiracy, it is impossible to study 9/11 without dealing with conspiracy theories.�
Fetzer thinks the administration wants to suppress serious research on 9/11 because the official account cannot withstand scrutiny. �What the government has told us is just fine if you are willing to believe impossible things,� he observed. �Its truth requires violating laws of physics and engineering that cannot be violated and cannot be changed.� He offered a recent piece from NIST that attempts to resolve �frequently asked questions� as an illustration. �We have posted it on our web site at st911.org along with several critiques. I invite anyone to review that exchange to determine if the official account has any basis in science. It does not.�
An article from Popular Mechanics that has been turned into a book doesn�t fare any better, he observed. Since there is no objective foundation for the official account, there is no ground to suggest that skeptics of the official account need psychological counseling. �Rationality is the tendency to accept, reject, and hold-in-suspense beliefs on the basis of logic and evidence,�� Fetzer stated. �Given what we know now, those who continue to defend the government�s account are the ones whose beliefs cannot be justified by logic and evidence, not the critics. The situation abounds with ironies.�
�Sometimes I wonder if the general public realizes the government has been lying to us about 9/11 from the beginning.� He cites the recent acknowledgment from the FBI that it has �no hard evidence� connecting Osama bin Laden to 9/11 and the President�s response during a press conference that Saddam Hussein had �nothing� to do with 9/11. Only this week a Senate Intelligence Committee report explained that Saddam not only was not collaborating with bin Laden but opposed him. �These were reasons we were given for going to war,� he said. �If the government has been lying about them, we already know the government has been lying about 9/11.�
Scholars, a non-partisan society of students, faculty and experts dedicated to exposing falsehoods and revealing truths about 9/11, includes physicists, mechanical engineers, civil engineers, pilots, and aeronautical engineers among its members. �We have no funds and no budget but are doing this because we believe the American people are entitled to know the truth about their own history. Even I find it difficult to believe that the American government could have attacked the American people and killed 3,000 civilians to promote its political agenda, but that is where the evidence leads.�
Contact information:
James H. Fetzer, Ph.D.
Founder and Co-Chair
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
(608) 835-2707 (home)
http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org (st911.org)
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/...se20060909.html
London, England this past weekend.
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X So how come you're so quick to excuse those aforesaid, acknowledged experts after they omitted certain pieces of data to suit their findings. Data such as that of the molten steel in the basements of all three towers, data such as the acounts of multiple explosions which had been corroborated by numerous eyewitnesses, seismic data, etc. Much of it would probably have altered the conclusions of the glaringly erroneous 9/11 Commission Report had it not been omitted. |
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| far too weak in signal-to-noise ratio and far too speculative in terms of signal source to be used as a means of contradicting the impact times �� (Commission, p.462) But the key mistake however, is the idea that any building is demolished by a progressive wave of explosions either working its way up or down a building. |
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Brent Blanchard devotes section 4 of his paper to the issue of seismic recordings on 9/11. Blanchard is Senior Editor of ImplosionWorld, a website which posts details of explosive demolitions, and also Director of Field Operations at Protec Documentation Services, Inc. Protec works in the field of vibration monitoring and structure inspection, a key service to both the construction and demolition industries. Vibration monitoring performed by independent experts has long been considered crucial for companies carrying out explosive demolition, because owners of nearby buildings are keen to sue if any cracks or other structural damage appears. The field seismographs used by Protec and others provide the key scientific evidence for disturbances that may have caused damage, and there were a number of such seismographs operated by Protec on 9/11 in the vicinity of Ground Zero, for monitoring construction sites. Blanchard tells us that data from these machines, and seismographs operated elsewhere, all confirm single vibration events recording the collapse. None of them record the tell-tale 'spikes' that would indicate explosive detonations prior to collapse. In his words: This evidence makes a compelling argument against explosive demolition. The laws of physics dictate that any detonation powerful enough to defeat steel columns would have transferred excess energy through those same columns into the ground, and would certainly have been detected by at least one of the monitors that were sensitive enough to record the structural collapses. However, a detailed analysis of all available data reveals no presence of any unusual or abnormal vibration events. |
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Apparently you haven't read much about it (have you actually studied any of this or do you just read from a script?) but most of the people who have begun to question the official story are vilified, demonized, mindlessly ridiculed for being CT's, etc. It's not about being laughed at, it's about losing their jobs and ruining their careers. |
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Maybe you should go back and reread the article I posted the other day, just a few posts back. To make it easier for you (I'm just assuming that you don't know what I'm talking about), I've even entitled it, "And you wonder why there aren't any major peer reviewed scientific papers floating around? Here's what happens when you question the official story..." |
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Can you talk about them or should I just assume which points you're talking about? |
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SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH ASSAILED |
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I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials. I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong. Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. [b]English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member? So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons! The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings. So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work! So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it. Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented. Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one. |
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London, England this past weekend... |
Fuk PKC is on mission all on his own. I am convinced this mofo is getting paid for all his hard work.
It must suck being the minority when just about everyone else with some common sense knows the official story stinks like aged cow shit.
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh dear. the molten "iron" theory. is there any theory regarding 9/11 you haven't just swallowed? (FYI, if it was a thermite-based reaction that caused the molten METAL (don't say steel because you don't know) it should be molten IRON, not steel. thermite produces iron in its chemical reaction |
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| hot spots of molten steel in the basements...at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels |
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corroborated by seismic data? oh, you mean the columbia university recordings? which, according to the authors of said study their seismic data is source furthermore: |
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ibid. as for the "eyewitnesses", i have no doubt that people heard explosions on the day. im sure people heard lots of them. a big building had been hit by a plane after all. but you cannot jump from that to "oh, it was explosives" without any evidence. you ignore the larger problems concerning logistics etc but ill leave that for now. |
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really, the bigger problem for you is to explain how explosives are capable of bringing a building down from the top down ??? controlled demolitions ALWAYS, 100% of the time, collapse a building using its own gravity, bottom-up. there's no way you could produce the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 with thermite. its simply not possible. anyone that has looked at the way in which thermite works should know this. |
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| perhaps, given their belief in unscientfic methods, they deserve to lose their jobs? |
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| yeah, so what? i dont see secret agents busting into his house and gunning him down. this sinister government who is prepared to murder thousands of its own citizens, now seems to let anyone speak their mind on the subject relatively freely. ooooh, spooky! steven jones has been a noisy critic for a long time. he isnt scared of having his tenure taken away (it already has been) where's his peer review?? |
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| ok, ill be specific. AE911truth makes reference to: 4. Squibs or �mistimed� explosions, at the upper 7 floors seen in the network videos -nonsense 7. Tons of molten Metal found by CDI (Demolition Contractor) in basement (no other possible source than an incendiary cutting charge such as Thermate) -there is no way that thermite was used. it cant demolish buildings. no, really. 8. Chemical signature of Thermate (high tech incendiary) found in slag, solidified molten metal, and dust samples by Physics professor Steven Jones, PhD. -untrue. jones found sulfur. 11. Fore-knowledge of �collapse� by media, NYPD, FDNY - i know. imagine knowing that a building which had been on fire for several hours, was bulging and creaking, was gonna collapse! holy bloody obvious batman! And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e. 1. Slow onset with large visible deformations -untrue, as witnessed by plenty of firefighters. 2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fire. -wreckage indicates the building did exactly that. 3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel -you mean asides from a building that burned, largely unchecked, for around 5 hours?? 4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never �collapsed�. -there is no way in hell a respectable member of the structural engineering community would make such a claim. it makes no sense and anyone with 5 minutes experience would know better. -this is a central reason why i dont buy the official credentials of those supposed listed here. oh, that and last time culorut posted a list it was a bunch of rubbish. oh yes, the scholars. the theologians, philosophers. no real engineers tho. lets have a squiz! http://debunking911.com/jones.htm anywayz, thats all from me today. i have to go do work. i know its brief and lacks extra detail, but in all honesty im tired of typing lots only to have cretins like cronodevir to miss the point and attack with deviously stupid non sequiturs. i still dont understand how all of these people can think it looks anything like a controlled demolition. if it does, it looks like no controlled demolition ever carried out by anyone, ever. controlled demo: down=>up WTC 1 & 2: up=>down dont know how you guys explain that for us? |
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TO THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Please Take Notice That: On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7. Sincerely, The Undersigned Architects (Degreed & Licensed) Architectural Professionals (Degreed) Richard Gage, AIA, Architect B. Arch. S.F. Bay Area, CA Scott Page, M. Arch / Designer Berkeley, CA Bruce Richey, AIA, Architect Ashland, Oregon Alan S. Glassman, M. Arch., Associate AIA, CSI, SA, Architectural Re * Lancaster, Pennsylvania Chris Swigert, Architect Oakland, CA Am Amnusydcjkorn, B. I.Arch, Designer * Berkeley, CA Christian Mungenast, AIA, Architect Arlington, MA Andrew McClure, B.Arch VPI&SU B.Arch VPI&SU Raleigh, NC David Crawford, Architect Walnut Creek, CA Arnold A. Valdez, M.Arch, Designer/Planner * Santa Fe, New Mexico Dennis Holloway, Architect, Architect * Rio Rancho, NM Arthur Stopes, Planner Berkeley, CA Don Gibbons, Architect Pleasant Hill, CA Chris Jung B. Arch. Berkeley, CA Eric Douglas, Architect Howard Beach, NY Dominique Roddier, phD, Naval Architect Berkeley, CA Haluk Akol, Architect & Structural Engineer Lafayette, CA Elwin Wong B. Arch - Cal Berkeley Oakland, CA James Martin Tomlin, Architect B.Arch, 1988, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo Fresno, CA Felix Goebel, Dipl. Ing (Architektur) Oakland, CA Jeff Arnold, Architect Orinda, CA Francisco A. Planes, Architectural Consultant, Assoc., A.I.A. B.S. Architecture, CCNY-CUNY Bloomfield, NJ Jim Bedinghaus, Architect St. Petersburg, Florida Henri Tso B. Arch. Walnut Creek, CA Joe Bellows, Architect Martinez, CA Jan Leits, B. Arch. Berkeley, CA John Cole, Architect Walnut Creek, CA Jeffrey Tam B. Arch Oakland, CA John Eisenhart, Architect San Diego, CA Justin Feider, Intern Architect * Denver, Colorado John Howland, Architect Walnut Creek, CA Karlene Gullone B. Arch San Francisco, CA Michael E. Balay, Architect Fishers, Indiana Ken Hutchinson B. Arch. Eugene, OR Michael C. Coffey, AIA, Architect * New York, NY Kurt Worthington, Urban Planner M. Arch San Francisco, CA Mickey Propadovich, Architect * Evanston, Illinois Michael Reuter, Architectural Professional Berkeley, CA Mike Swenson, PhD., Structural Engineer * Structural Engineering - Florida A&M University Tampa, Florida Mojgan Saberi, BS Arch., Designer Oakland, CA Nelson L Johnson, Architect & Civil Engineer MArch Columbia San Francisco, CA Oscar Cisnero, Architectural Professional Antioch, CA Osvaldo Valdes, Architect New York, NY Reed Simpson, M. Arch. Associate AIA * Master of Architecture University of Kan Overland Park, Kansas Peter Hendrickson, Architect Santa Rosa, CA Thomas Spellman, Urban Activist Lake Geneva, WI Roger vanFrank, Architect * Salt Lake City, UT Tim Clark B. Arch Albany, CA Ronald F. Avery, Architect * Seguin, Texas Travis Van Brasch, Associate AIA, Design Principal San Francisco, CA Wendy Sitler, Designer B. Arch Berkeley, CA Engineers (Degreed & Licensed) Engineering Professionals (Degreed) Barry K. Miller, P.E., Mechanical Engineer Hinsdale, NY Andrew Griffith, Engineering * B.S., Chemical Engineering Seattle, WA Cameron Porter, PhD, Mechanical Engineer * Boston, Massachusetts Anthony Szamboti, BSME, Mechanical Engineering Blackwood, NJ Charles N. Pegelow, PE, Civil Engineer. lic Calif CE 26344 (Structural Houston, Texas Arnold B. Walker, Design Engineer, Retired * BS Tool & Manufacturing Technology BYU Sandy, UT Chester W. Gearhart, P.E., Retired B.S. Civil Engineering, Univ of Missouri Kansas City, MO Bob McGee, Engineer * Green Bay, WI Dennis J. Kollar, P.E., Structural Engineer West Bend, WI Bradley Pattee, Engineering Staff * Rochester, NY Derek Johnson, E.I.T., C.W.I. B.S. Mechanical Engineering Marlin, Texas David C. Avina, Engineer BSME Bay St. Louis, MS J. Marx Ayres, PE, Mechanical Engineer Santa Monica, CA David Gregg, Ph.D., Chemical Engineer Moraga, California James R. Carr, Ph.D., P.E.(geological engineering,, Professor, Ge Reno, Nevada David Wilkins, Electrical Engineer * San Jose, CA John Franklin, P.E. * Lubec, ME Edwin Michael Taylor, E.I.T., Engineering Consultant Hampton, VA John F. Shanahan, PE, Electrical Engineer Rancho Cucamonga, CA Gene Robinson, B.S. Industrial Engineer non-licensed * Savannah, Georgia Joseph Testa, P.E., Civil Engineer Thousand Oaks, CA Gregg Brazel, BSCNE, Constr. Engr'g Evanston, IL Kenneth Wrenn, P.E. * B.S., Civil Engineering, NCSU Durham, NC Henry Rozumski, Aerospace Engineer/ Analyst * Aiea, HI Michael E. Stephens, PE BS, Geological Engineering Welling, OK Jack Meagher, BSNE, Nuclear Engineer Peterborough, NH Mitchell Scott Stein, P.E. M.S. Civil Engg, Univ of Texas at Austin Austin, TX James Brooks, B. Civil Eng, University of Texas, Engineering Con * Austin, TX Peter Gibbons, P.E., Professional Engineer * Mccausland,, Iowa James R. Northrup, Sr., Welding Engineer & Journeyman Steamfitter Ypsilanti, MI Peter D. Morse, P.E., Mechanical Engineer Tucson, Arizona Jason Griffin, BS, Civil Engineer Washington, DC Richard J. Snider, P.E. BSEE, University of Texas, Austin Dallas, Dripping Springs, TX Jay Easwaran, Ph.D. (Metallurgy & Materials Sci.), Metallurgical * Indianapolis, Indiana Robert Nielson, PLS, Land Surveyor Walnut Creek, CA Jeff Rogers, MSME, Engineer * Woodland Park, CO Ron Paul LeBlanc, PE, Engineer Firestone, CO John J. Crawford, Engineering Consultant * BSE Opelika, AL Steven Craig Brantingham, P.E. B.S., ChemE, U. of Arkansas Fayetteville Cypress, TX John P Machado, other BSEE UMass North Versailles, PA Steven Reiser, Chemical Engineer Westminster, CO John Rexroat, Mfr. Engineer Walnut Creek, CA Tim Rohach, P.E., Mechanical Engineer MSME Sugar Land, Texas John Shinn, phD., Chemical Engineer Pleasant Hill, CA William D. Taylor, P.E. B.S. Engineering Tequesta, FL John Sotelo, BSME, MD, Mechanical Engineer * Eureka, CA Jon Marino, BSCE, EIT, Design Engineer Phoenix, AZ Keith E. Fleming, Engineering Staff * B.S., Mechanical Engineering Auburn, GA Ken Jenkins, BS Carnegie Mellon, Electrical Engineer San Rafael, CA Kevin Ryan, BS Chem., Certified Quality Engineer Bloomington, IN Michel A. Thomet, Ph.D., Electrical Engineer Ph.D.,E.E., Carnegie-Mellon, Pittsburgh, Lafayette, CA Mike Meyer, Mechanical Engineer Tempe, AZ Mike Schmidt, BSGE, Project Manager Chicago, IL Paul Briggs, Mechanical Engineer Common, Quindaro Plant B.S. Mechanical Engineering, Kansas State Kansas City, KS Rich McCampbell, BS ChemE * Boston, MA Rich Reed, B.S. Structural Engineering, UC San, Structural / San Diego, California Richard Besco, Engineering Staff * San Luis Obispo, CA Robert Hulsart, Computer Engineer Franklin Square, NY Robert Poltz, Reliablity Engineering Consultant * MSE/BSE Los Angeles, California Robert Charles Terhune, none B.S., Electrical Engineering, Univ. NV, Sparks, NV Roger Twede, Engineering Staff Meridian, ID Ron Wilson, Engineering Staff * Fort Worth, Texas Sebastian Canaday, Engineer Staff B.S.,Engineering, Colo. School of Mines Boulder, CO Steven Eugene Ramsey, Author, Publisher, Filmmaker * B.S. Civil Engineering, B.S. Microbiology Austin, Texas Ted Muga, BSCE, Civil Engineer San Diego, CA Terry Allen, Electronics Engineer * Sun Valley, CA Victor Connor, Retired Engineer from IBM MS in Electrical and Computer Engineerin Normal, IL Warren J. Raftshol * Suttons Bay, MI William Edward Parker, Retired Engineer Louisville, KY Non-U.S. Architects and Engineers & Architectural and Engineering Professionals A.J. James Shieck, Architectural Technologist * Dilp Tech Vancouver, BC � Canada Brian McHugh, BSc PgD, Consultant Engineer Glasgow, UK � Scotland David Leifer, Registered Architect B.Sc, B.Arch, M.Ed, Ph.D Sydney, New South Wales � Australia David Quinn, M.Arch, Intern Architect * Halifax, NS � Canada Doug Plumb Toronto, ON � Canada Enzo Valenzetti, Civil Engineer * Leuven, Brussels � Belgium Gregory Urich, B.S.E.E, Sofware Engineering Consultant * Lund, Sk�ne � Sweden Hadi Izadi, Ph.D., Student M.A.Sc., B.A.Sc. Vancouver, BC � Canada Jasper Tomlinson, MA(Oxon) CEnv MCIWEM, Environmental and Water Reso * London Uk, London � UK Joe Rowling, Architectural staff London, London � UK John L. Bursill, Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Avionics Sydney, NSW � Australia John Fisher, quantity surveyor /construction consultant * Liverpool, merseyside uk � UK Kees van der Bent, Designer * B.Sc., Computer Science, The Hague NL Utrecht, Utrecht � Netherlands Lydia A. Browne, M. Arch, Architectural Consultant, Strategy * London, (formally of Cincinnati, OH) � United Kingdom Magnus Thompson, Engineering Staff * Winnipeg, Manitoba � Canada Michael A. Rose, B Arch, Architect (Retired) * Auckland, AK � New Zealand Mohsin Drabu, Student * London, London � UK Philip Kienholz, B. Arch., NWTAA, PMP, Architect * Hay River, NT � Canada Robert Tamaki, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., Civil Engineer Vancouver, BC � Canada |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Molten iron theory? I love how you continually attempt to refute what I'm saying while simultaneously displaying your obvious lack of research regarding the facts of the matter. That there was molten metal in the sub-basements of all three buildings is a FACT. It's a FACT that's been corroborated by numerous eyewitnesses including Mark Loizeaux, the owner of Controlled-Demolition, Inc., who was quoted as saying, There's even a few video's online where a couple of the firefighters talk about it. In another video, some students even confront John Gross of the NIST about it. Of course he vehemently denies having any knowledge about it, though. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Yeah, the same Columbia University recordings which were used by the NIST. I really wasn't referring to any of Griffin's claims, though. I was referring to the huge seismic spikes which marked the beginning of each of the Twin Tower's collapses. The ones that the NIST weren't really able to explain and the same ones that seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam (Director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research) said were still being investigated. |
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The planes exploded upon initial contact wityh the buildings and the jet fuel burned off in minutes. That wouldn't account for the numerous BIG BANGS and loud crackles which were heard preceding the collapses. One eyewitness is on record (via a live news broadcast from that day) saying that it sounded like strings of "black cats" going off. |
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It's called a Controlled Progressive Collapse. Always, 100% of the time? How about the Biltmore Hotel in Oklahoma City? |
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Their belief in unscientific methods? LMAO It's cool how you can twist it around to demonize the ones who are diligently searching for the truth using scientific, critical thinking skills while the coverup artists get a free pass. |
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There you go with your logical fallacies. Ad hominems, Poisoning the Well, the Bandwagon Fallacy, Non Sequiturs, etc. It's really been a trip trying to get through to you. |
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You obviously haven't really researched any of this. I think that your mind was made up the moment the government told you what happened. |
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Anyway, I've already given you a link to a list of engineers but just like the rest of the evidence that points to government complicity, you've apparently chosen to ignore it. |
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Denialism: the employment of rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none. These false arguments are used when one has few or no facts to support one's viewpoint against a scientific consensus or against overwhelming evidence to the contrary. They are effective in distracting from actual useful debate using emotionally appealing, but ultimately empty and illogical assertions. Examples of common topics in which Denialists employ their tactics include: Creationism/Intelligent Design, Global Warming Denialism, Holocaust Denial, HIV/AIDS Denialism, 9/11 conspiracies, tobacco carcinogenecity denialism (the first organized corporate campaign), anti-vaccination/mercury autism denialism and anti-animal testing/animal rights extremist denialism. Denialism spans the ideological spectrum, and is about tactics rather than politics or partisanship. We believe there are five simple guidelines for identifying denialist arguments. Most denialist arguments will incorporate more than one of the following tactics: Conspiracy, Selectivity, False Experts, Impossible Expectations/Moving Goalposts, and Argument from Metaphor/violations of informal logic. Adapted from Give Up Blog's post with permission. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you miss my point. my point is that a- nobody can tell what the molten metal was as nobody tested it. if it was molten STEEL then it wasnt a thermite reaction. in any case, thermite is an incindiary and not used in demolitions. it is far too unpredictable and cant make the "cuts" that have been bandied around in photos after the fact. thermite is not a viable theory as there is no way you could get the TONS (yes tons) of thermite into the building in the first place. let alone remove all the concrete reinforcing the columns (thermite needs direct contact to work). the thermite theory is one of the easier ones to disprove, so much so that super-secret-military thermite has been suggested in this here thread to make up for thermite's natural inability to bring down buildings. ive already stated that the columbia authors said their findings arent nearly accurate enough to be used in this way, why do you continue? i am not all that concerned with random eye-witnesses. unless they are witnessing something common (like a plane hitting a pentagonally-shaped building). people's eyes and ears are fooled all the time. its interesting that so many of the 911 CTs are born out of off-hand comments made that day, but completely ignore plausible explanations once further information is released. so, what youre saying is that the government used both traditional, RDX-like cutter charges as well as thermite? what exactly was the thermite for? where did all the demolition wire get hidden? (note, remote controlled charges cannot have been used. asked colonelcrisp about that). if i am incorrect then i'll accept that. but that still looks to be a collapse that began at the bottom. its interesting you used that website too, theres a piece in it on the largest building ever done, and includes the prep work time (which was MONTHS, full-time). a larger building like the WTCs wouldve taken even longer. how do you explain that? how did the government manage it? and please dont mention the "power-downs" haha. either way, the WTCs werent a controlled progressive collapse in any case, unless of course you think CPC means the top section of a building breaks off and "rides" the remainder all the way down. quite lucky that the government placed those charges in exactly the right spot where the planes hit huh? i am not twisting anything. scientific methods (have you even read jones' paper?) are those that satisfy peer-review. its part and parcel of presenting scientific evidence. jones for instance, makes completely unsubstantiated assumptions regarding something (collapsing buildings) within which he is not qualified to make. im sorry, but there has yet to be a proper study from your side of the fence. any site that repeats known fallacies like "oh, no building has fallen like this before" or "gee, WTC7 fell without a scratch" isnt utilising unscientific methods. and i have seen the same lies on each and every website (and ive visited a fair few) attacking steven jones for not having produced a peer-reviewed paper when he is obviously not fearful of losing anything is not an ad hominem. pointing out that the government hasnt murdered any of these "truth seekers" because they have stumbled upon the truth isnt convincing, and neither is it a non sequitur. eh, wheres the bandwagon fallacy??? wrong, and wrong. the difference between my research and yours is that 911 truth sites are not the only once i have visited to view both sides of the story. every piece of "evidence" presented (a lot factually incorrect) i have found corresponding arguments that are far far more plausible, without the disingenuous (probably dishonest) editing of said facts. ie, the photos you see on CT sites of building 7, versus the interviews with firemen that actually fought the raging infero telling it how it was. i think you have certainly done your research, but its pretty obvious to me you havent approached the questions from either side, which is what should be done at the outset. FYI, i was pretty convinced of a lot of this stuff after ogv5150 sent me some links and videos. which is where my interest started. pretty compelling evidence to some ignorant shit like myself at the time. luckily for me other people started putting these lies into their proper context. thanks for that. ive sent colonelcrisp a PM, hopefully he'll be here to undermine this list of supposed experts soon |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN http://www.denialism.com/2007/03/what-is-denialism.html |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Well, I'm definitely not conceding anything but I will say that it's definitely quite difficult trying to investigate something when at every turn there is another coverup agent trying to either further obfuscate the facts or deliberately mislead in some way. |
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If it was in fact a rogue faction within the upper echelons of our Federal Government (CIA black budgeted?) then they probably would have been able to get ahold of whatever type of military grade incendiaries or cutting charges (like what Spectre Enterprises has patented) or better. You do realize that military technology is several decades ahead of civilian technology, don't you? |
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And why do you always have to make assumptions and/or assertions about me? (Why am I even a topic in your discussion?) |
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Do you actually have some sort of knowledge about what web sites I've visited? |
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I've been looking into this for several years and even though I've only more recently become enthralled with this whole conspiracy, I've been sure to look at all sides of the equation. Crap, I even delved though the 9/11 Commission report but had to let it go after I realized how much of a waste of taxpayer dollars the Keane-Zelikow Commission was. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN we'll have to disagree there. i think the facts (as much as is possible) have been pretty obviously revealed. not necessarily by the administration, but by those experts in the field. very true. the problem being that you cant produce this as ANY kind of evidence. because it isn't evidence. just because the theory requires a topsecret tuhs far unknown incendiary does not actually mean they do exist. the super-secret thermate-esque stuff still doesn't answer all the other problems of the demo theory, so its a moot point. you're the one who accused me of doing no research on the matter. whats good for the goose... given that you've made reference to unsubstantiated theories of doubt well known on so-called "debunking" sites, then yeah, i get the feeling that you haven't really assessed the answers to the questions raised on 911.org etc. perhaps i am wrong. maybe im giving you too much credit, because i dont see how an obviously well-read and intelligent human being could fall victim to some of these outlandish claims unless (like me back in 2003) they hadnt received a crash course in logical answers. i stopped reading the report coz it was pretty damned boring but, if youre bored. here's one site. its reasonably short and succinct, no ads or anything for sale. a very nice critique of (amongst other things) dr steven jones. good science and 9/11 demolition theories obviously you dont have to read any of it, but i would honestly like your opinion on the paper if you ever have the time |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X That's where you're wrong and that's why I keep asking you if you've actually researched this. I keep pointing to details which you seem to be oblivious to and it's gotten to the point that it's almost as though you don't want to see them at all but would rather narrow the argument down to some unarguable specific. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Hey, if they hadn't carted away so much of the evidence so quickly we would all undoubtedly know a lot more about what really happened. But it's just another coincidence that they did that, right? It's another coincidence that all of the trucks which hauled away the steel were fitted with GPS tracking devices so that none of the steel would have slipped through the coverup cracks. |
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Those prototypical demolition charges do exist and that's much of the point. The military has them, they're just not commercially available. And while I do glean bits and pieces of information wherever I can, I'm definitely not referencing random websites as an original, authoritative source. |
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How about the nineteen hijackers of which six are still alive and residing in the Middle East? |
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How about a plastic passport that survived a ball of jet fuel |
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or an alleged group of fanatical, fundamentalist Muslims who behave very un-Muslim-like by dating strippers and having a debaucherous ole' time partying with cocaine and alcohol? |
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How about the fact that two of them trained at U.S. Military facilities? |
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I think I should just start to make a list because there are literally hundreds of such anomalies that are begging to be investigated. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats funny, coz i feel the same way about you! |
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| i think you have certainly done your research |
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| this is another often-repeated argument for which i have been able to find no evidence of. ive only been able to find unsubstantiated commentary on CT sites. check out statement number 6 in this article from a demolition's firm that deals directly with the chain of evidence. http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPS...rd%208-8-06.pdf ]link[/URL] |
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do they? how come youre privvy to the secret defence labs? either way, the fact is you cant prove they were used, so with no proof im still wondering why we are considering them at all? |
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| oh, couldnt be a case of stolen identity could it? seriously, why is the claim always "conspiracy" ahead of the much more likely explanation? terrorists wouldnt conceal their true identities if possible of course. the passenger manifests with these names- where did they come from? someone caught those planes with those details. end of story. |
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?? |
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i am not familiar with that particular theory. then again, i people criticise popular mechanics because one staff member is the third cousin twice removed of george bush. |
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anomalies arent evidence. like ive said before, arguments to create doubt do not actually provide anything substantial in its place. the funny thing is, i still havent seen any of these anomalies connected together to make one cohesive story. most of the anomalies demand the most ridiculous answers, such as a circling plane dumped plane parts (that just happened to match the plane that disappeared near the pentagon) over the pentagon lawn to make it look like a plane hit. hahahahaha. |
trancer-x for your sake i really hope you double checked the credentials of all those engineers and architects you posted because i am going to start chipping away at that list tonight...... i already did it once..... and the results were not shocking. 95% of them were not liscenced anywhere in the US.........
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| Originally posted by colonelcrisp trancer-x for your sake i really hope you double checked the credentials of all those engineers and architects you posted because i am going to start chipping away at that list tonight...... i already did it once..... and the results were not shocking. 95% of them were not liscenced anywhere in the US......... |
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