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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Ludicrous 911 Theor

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Those 47 box columns had to offer some resistance, though. Much more so than just the air between the floors (the very same air that Mr. Blacker's computations left unaccounted for.) Anyway, why don't you put your mind where your mouth is and show this guy up on his challenge to Popular Mechanics? I'd definitely have a lot of respect for you if you did that and although I almost hate to say it, I think that it would actually be kind of cool

the key thing that he did not take into account however is impulse and momentum. while neglecting air resistance, any mass in free fall is subject to an acceleration due to gravity of 9.81 m/s^2 at sea level (this varies with altitude)

an unbalanced force acting on a body will cause acceleration. now these 47 columns provide a certain value of resistance up to their buckling strength. the instant the floors above collide with the first intact floor, not only does the momentum generated impulse meet teh failure load of these columns, but it would exceed it significantly, this is now a net acting force on that slab in the downwards direction. now that particular slab which has begun to fall is not only subjected to teh acceleration due to gravity of aproximately 9.81 m/s^2 but the acceleration due to the unbalanced force generated by the impulse of the impact of the previous floors. as the collapse progresses, this effect is compounded ie: the further down it fell, the faster it was moving.

a simple analogy would be to stand on top of a building with two tennis balls, one you drop from shoulder height and the second you throw straight down. the thrown ball will hit first.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Ludicrous 911 T

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp the key thing that he did not take into account however is impulse and momentum. while neglecting air resistance, any mass in free fall is subject to an acceleration due to gravity of 9.81 m/s^2 at sea level (this varies with altitude) an unbalanced force acting on a body will cause acceleration. now these 47 columns provide a certain value of resistance up to their buckling strength. the instant the floors above collide with the first intact floor, not only does the momentum generated impulse meet teh failure load of these columns, but it would exceed it significantly, this is now a net acting force on that slab in the downwards direction. now that particular slab which has begun to fall is not only subjected to teh acceleration due to gravity of aproximately 9.81 m/s^2 but the acceleration due to the unbalanced force generated by the impulse of the impact of the previous floors. as the collapse progresses, this effect is compounded ie: the further down it fell, the faster it was moving. a simple analogy would be to stand on top of a building with two tennis balls, one you drop from shoulder height and the second you throw straight down. the thrown ball will hit first.

So who do you suggest had an arm big enough to throw both World Trade Center towers and then later in the evening, WTC tower 7? Zeus?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Ludicrous 9

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Originally posted by Trancer-X So who do you suggest had an arm big enough to throw both World Trade Center towers and then later in the evening, WTC tower 7? Zeus?

I believe he meant that the combined momentum caused by the floors falling down on the supported floors was bigger than the weight bearing limit of the supported floors, therefore it would fall faster than just free fall. I am not aware of how many floors came crashing down on the supported floors, but we can assume that it was quite a bit of weight and that the supported floors could only bear a small fraction of that weight, therefore they collapsed, adding to the speed already present in the mass that made them collapse.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Ludicro

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Originally posted by venomX I believe he meant that the combined momentum caused by the floors falling down on the supported floors was bigger than the weight bearing limit of the supported floors, therefore it would fall faster than just free fall. I am not aware of how many floors came crashing down on the supported floors, but we can assume that it was quite a bit of weight and that the supported floors could only bear a small fraction of that weight, therefore they collapsed, adding to the speed already present in the mass that made them collapse.

So do you mean the 47 HUGE steel SUPPORT BEAMS were sucking the building into the ground?

I don't see the logic here. How does it so easily violate physics?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Ludicrous 9

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Originally posted by Trancer-X So who do you suggest had an arm big enough to throw both World Trade Center towers and then later in the evening, WTC tower 7? Zeus?

good to see trancer putting in all the effort to debate engineering with a civil engineer.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your Lud

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Originally posted by Trancer-X So do you mean the 47 HUGE steel SUPPORT BEAMS were sucking the building into the ground? I don't see the logic here. How does it so easily violate physics?

ok ill try and explain this theory again... this time we will take out gravity from the equation. lets say you have car A parked in the middle of a freeway (Car A is a 1985 reliant K car) Car B (188 Ford Fiesta) impacts Car A at 50 mph. at the instant the two cars collide, the momentum of Car B generates an impulse thereby imparting a net force on Car A. as a result of the law of conservation of momentum, Car A begins to move forwards until the frictional force of the road on the tires is sufficient to bring it to a stop.


lets say a column has a euler buckling load of 110 KN (110 000 N)

a 1 Kg weight travelling at 10 m/s has an impusle force of 98.1 N/s whereas at rest it would only have a mass of 9.81 N


lets estimate that one floor had a weight of 500 tonne. lets also assume an impact velocity between 3 and 5 m/s.

500 000 KG * 9.81 * 4 (average velocity) = thats 19620 KN/s

assuming a load tranfer time of .5 sec, that brings the net force to 9810 KN


your 47 columns have a combined resistance of 47*110 = 5170 KN.....

the impulse force would crush themwhile still leaving a force of 4500 KN to accelerate this floor down in addition to the acceleration due to gravity.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter to Popular Mechanics - Prove Your

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp ok ill try and explain this theory again... this time we will take out gravity from the equation. lets say you have car A parked in the middle of a freeway (Car A is a 1985 reliant K car) Car B (188 Ford Fiesta) impacts Car A at 50 mph. at the instant the two cars collide, the momentum of Car B generates an impulse thereby imparting a net force on Car A. as a result of the law of conservation of momentum, Car A begins to move forwards until the frictional force of the road on the tires is sufficient to bring it to a stop. lets say a column has a euler buckling load of 110 KN (110 000 N) a 1 Kg weight travelling at 10 m/s has an impusle force of 98.1 N/s whereas at rest it would only have a mass of 9.81 N lets estimate that one floor had a weight of 500 tonne. lets also assume an impact velocity between 3 and 5 m/s. 500 000 KG * 9.81 * 4 (average velocity) = thats 19620 KN/s assuming a load tranfer time of .5 sec, that brings the net force to 9810 KN your 47 columns have a combined resistance of 47*110 = 5170 KN..... the impulse force would crush themwhile still leaving a force of 4500 KN to accelerate this floor down in addition to the acceleration due to gravity.

and I'll say it again in different words,

Going by your scenario, what do you propose that it was that impacted the top of the WTC twin towers and WTC7 that made them fall as though there was hardly any RESISTANCE whatsoever? (like in a vacuum)

I'm forwarding this all to Mr. Blacker at Physical Systems, btw - just because I want to get his professional opinion on why the laws of physics wouldn't all of a sudden need to be suspended for this scenario to work.

No matter what he says, I'll definitely repost any reply!

If your refferring to the trigger of the collapse, I believe it was heating of the steel beams which cause them to bend inwards and downwards, pulling the outer supports in with them. Eventually the building distabalised and that part of the building was completely pulled in, bringing everything from the floors above the crash down upon the lower floors.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter If your refferring to the trigger of the collapse, I believe it was heating of the steel beams which cause them to bend inwards and downwards, pulling the outer supports in with them. Eventually the building distabalised and that part of the building was completely pulled in, bringing everything from the floors above the crash down upon the lower floors.

Going by your own deduction or are you simply repeating the official conspiracy theory?

So many of the witnesses said that it appeared to have been triggered by a big explosion.

You can definitely hear it on that last video.

That is the official cause and the science is solid.

Floor upon floor crashing into eachother. Your theory assumes this would be a silent proccess.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter That is the official cause and the science is solid. Floor upon floor crashing into eachother. Your theory assumes this would be a silent proccess.

The science is flawed and the people who are trying to bring about a new investigation are being silenced and/or marginalized.

Mr. Blacker wouldn't have offered that challenge to Popular Mechanics if there was no refuting against their findings.

in his own words:

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It is physically impossible for the strongest, heaviest and (3 times working design load) bottom 80+ floors to offer near zero resistance to the falling floors except when there is a controlled demolition. Period!

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Originally posted by Trancer-X The science is flawed and the people who are trying to bring about a new investigation are being silenced and/or marginalized. Mr. Blacker wouldn't have offered that challenge to Popular Mechanics if there was no refuting against their findings. in his own words:

I cant see the stream. I can only assume its your one expert claiming that the floors in the WTC's were indestructable. Fail.

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Originally posted by The Arbiter I cant see the stream. I can only assume its your one expert claiming that the floors in the WTC's were indestructable. Fail.

No, it was a compilation made from video footage, eyewitness testimony and news reports which included some of the explosions which were heard on that fateful day.

Sorry

The sound of explosions has already been explained by the origonal theory. Now you must disprove that theory although I admit Im at a disadvantage not being able to see the streams.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter The sound of explosions has already been explained by the origonal theory. Now you must disprove that theory although I admit Im at a disadvantage not being able to see the streams.

lol

I see they had the quick response team waiting for my reply

I literally only logged on about 3 minutes ago. Im not that sad mate.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter I literally only logged on about 3 minutes ago. Im not that sad mate.

Have you actually even done any due diligence on this or are you simply parroting the official conspiracy theory like the good Nazi that you are?

I would normally invoke Godwins law. However, you are making an extremely shite point anyway; that explaining to you the official theory and that you dont have a proper reply to said theory is somehow not enough. Unfortunatley for you it is.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter I would normally invoke Godwins law. However, you are making an extremely shite point anyway; that explaining to you the official theory and that you dont have a proper reply to said theory is somehow not enough. Unfortunatley for you it is.

The problem with your ignorantly contrived rebuttal is that the official coverup commission didn't even admit the testimony of the firefighters (such as [[ LINK REMOVED ]]
) who reported all of this and thus weren't able to adequately explain it.

So how do I refute an official conspiracy theory which didn't even include such important pieces of information?

I can't because there's nothing to refute. They didn't properly explain it.


And I wasn't calling you a Nazi in regards to your apparent complicity in the continued coverup because I doubt that you really even have a fucking clue here. I was actually calling you a Nazi because you're probably not all that much different from the very same Germans who looked the other way when attrocities started to be committed because they weren't intelligent enough to distinguish between reality and propaganda and thus thought that the Reichstag Fire (Germany's 9/11) was actually set by the scapegoated Communists.

quote:

"We said something's wrong here - I mean the plane hit up on the 80th floor - 5 minutes later and the elevators are suddenly exploding on the first level - why?" "There was definitely a distinct time delay between the planes hitting and the elevators exploding," he added.

quote:

"We were tossed like a rag doll by another explosion in our building," said Schroeder. "People were making there way down the stairwells burnt like you couldn�t believe. We were all shocked because it seemed as if there was fire everywhere, on so many floors. It just didn�t make sense." "Explosions, fires everywhere, is something happening that we don't know about here? recalled Schroeder. "I mean a plane just hit - it wasn't an F-14 coming in and shooting rockets at us." - [[ LINK REMOVED ]]

List of quotes completely taken outof context.

These are fireman quotes that have been completely taken out of context with the aim of making us believe the fireman are on your side. You've probably seen all this before aswell, which is one of the most annoying things about your type. You see something you can bend and you bend it, justifying it by saying "We're right anyway, right? Tell a few lies to spread the truth."

I cant see those specific quotes, though. Can you provide sources for them? (Textual ones)

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter List of quotes completely taken outof context. These are fireman quotes that have been completely taken out of context with the aim of making us believe the fireman are on your side. You've probably seen all this before aswell, which is one of the most annoying things about your type. You see something you can bend and you bend it, justifying it by saying "We're right anyway, right? Tell a few lies to spread the truth." I cant see those specific quotes, though. Can you provide sources for them? (Textual ones)

Actually, they were taken from that video which was linked but oh yeah that's right, you're on some government restricted connection so how convenient for you that you can blindly refute it without even watching it first.

Are you sure that this isn't just another alt for LatinLover or pkcRAISTLIN? I really thought that you were smarter than this.

From what I can objectively(Difference between me and you.) conclude, pck is most definately more intelligent than you. I can guess why he acts the way he does with you and I really dont blame him. But I am my own person so dont start with that bullshit.

I'm on a restricted connection, wether you believe it or not. Notice my logon times are around nine and logout times for the day around 3/4 o'clock. This is because Im not at home, but on a controlled connection at work.

Im not refutting videos but asking you for textual versions to refute. Hell, ifit's worth anything it'll be in writing somewhere.

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