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You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out?

Where on Earth did civilisation disappear to? We have decended into savagary. With attitudes like this, can we morally criticise murderers like bin Laden, when we ourselves, are far far far worse?

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Originally posted by George Smiley You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out? Where on Earth did civilisation disappear to? We have decended into savagary. With attitudes like this, can we morally criticise murderers like bin Laden, when we ourselves, are far far far worse?

Of course not. They aren't ever going to give up until they accomplish their political agenda. But that doesn't mean we should abandon our efforts to eliminate terrorism. Using that line of logic why have a police force? That's not going to stop people from committing crimes. And it's impossible to eliminate all the reasons why people committ crimes ... people desire the things they do not have and sometimes use force to get it. You keep glossing over the fact that Al-Qaeda's existence is not rooted in correcting a grave injustice ... it's a movement derived from ideaological political goals ... goals they choose not to attain through democratic means and political activism. Let's say Al-Qaeda's goals were not based upon attaining religious fundamentalism ... let's say their goal is to kill all blacks and Mexicans, and since they cannot accomplish their ideaology through democracy and political activism, they do so through terrorism. Do we go to the root of the problem and give in to their demands? In as much as appeasement did not work to satisfy the political ideaologies of nazism (unless you appease them by letting them rule over you) it's not going to work with Al-Qaeda.

Dammit, I hate it when I godwin myself.

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Originally posted by George Smiley You all seriously believe that if you slaughter enough people they will give up? Seriously? And even if you did believe that, you are willing to carry those acts out?

I seriously believe this, yes. As to actually willing to carry those acts out, no I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want my government to carry them out.

But believing something and willing to do it are two completely different things. Do I believe I could be a mutli-millionare if I became a drug lord? Yes. Will I do this? Never.

I mean.. I think it is quiet proven in our history that if you slaughter enough people they will give up.

A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

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Originally posted by Yoepus I seriously believe this, yes. As to actually willing to carry those acts out, no I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want my government to carry them out. But believing something and willing to do it are two completely different things. Do I believe I could be a mutli-millionare if I became a drug lord? Yes. Will I do this? Never. I mean.. I think it is quiet proven in our history that if you slaughter enough people they will give up. A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

You preach democracy and diplomacy yet condone the use of Nuclear warfare to change public opinion?

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it's a movement derived from ideaological political goals ... goals they choose not to attain through democratic means and political activism

I can see where you are coming from, but you are overlooking the important role of religion in all this. No, they are not fighting to overturn a grave injustice, but that is from our perspective as democratically unreligiously(?) minded people.

I dont know what makes the mind of a religious fanatic tick, cos I'm not even religious, let alone fanatical (apart from over Sheffield United that is)!

For all we know, they could be just as highly motivated and determined as those fighting against a grave injustice, due to their religios beliefs. Religion over rules logic and reason where religion is intense enough.

Look at other religious fanatics like the Settlers in Israel (sorry but its a good example even if it is an Israeli example!!). They believe the West Bank is rightfully theirs because it was promised to them by God. Is that any different than al-Qaida's ideology in principle? And there have been plenty of examples of Jewish terrorism from Neo-Zionist organisations (not as much as Islamic terrorism, but then, they have a sovereign country doing their terrorism for them many would argue)

Just because in our minds, al-Qaida is not fighting a 'just cause', it in no way means that they wont be just as determined as we would expect if we thought their cause may be considered just. In fact, due to their religious beliefs, they might (probably) think that their cause is as much of a just cause as what we might consider a just cause in their minds, which is what is important here.

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A good example of this is the USA's use of overwhelming force (dropping nukes) against the Japanese. This changed their fanatical views to intelligent rational thinking in less then a week. Impresive huh?

No actually, that is an extremely bad example to use. Germany was defeated before Japan surrendered...there was no way Japan was going to win. In fact, it has now come to light in various reports and sources, that America was well aware Japan was going to surrender days before the first bomb was dropped.

No, the bomb was not meant to influence the Japanese, but the USSR...

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You preach democracy and diplomacy yet condone the use of Nuclear warfare to change public opinion?

Yes, thats exaclty right. Fear me! Fear me! MUHAHAHAHA

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Originally posted by George Smiley I can see where you are coming from, but you are overlooking the important role of religion in all this. No, they are not fighting to overturn a grave injustice, but that is from our perspective as democratically unreligiously(?) minded people. I dont know what makes the mind of a religious fanatic tick, cos I'm not even religious, let alone fanatical (apart from over Sheffield United that is)! For all we know, they could be just as highly motivated and determined as those fighting against a grave injustice, due to their religios beliefs. Religion over rules logic and reason where religion is intense enough. Look at other religious fanatics like the Settlers in Israel (sorry but its a good example even if it is an Israeli example!!). They believe the West Bank is rightfully theirs because it was promised to them by God. Is that any different than al-Qaida's ideology in principle? And there have been plenty of examples of Jewish terrorism from Neo-Zionist organisations (not as much as Islamic terrorism, but then, they have a sovereign country doing their terrorism for them many would argue) Just because in our minds, al-Qaida is not fighting a 'just cause', it in no way means that they wont be just as determined as we would expect if we thought their cause may be considered just. In fact, due to their religious beliefs, they might (probably) think that their cause is as much of a just cause as what we might consider a just cause in their minds, which is what is important here.

Ok, I see your point, to them they probably are fighting a grave injustice. However, despite the degree of their perseverence or conviction it does not give rise to any justification for society to even rationally humor their demands. They could be mindless zombies attacking in wave after wave of suicide attacks for all I care ... the simple fact remains that they're attempting to impose their minority political ideaologies on all of society in the entire middle east. Not an independant state with self-governance that is desired by the majority as your Palestinain example entails. IF their viewpoint were shared by the majority, then you would see a much more radicalized Middle East with the masses calling for Iranian style theocracies rather than what's currently happening ... a progression towards more westernized, secular states along with greater ties to the US and Europe. They cannot democratically accomplish what they are trying to do so they resort to force. And the civilized world, in keeping with the tradition of following the aggreggate will of the people as well as the preservation of the accepted societal methods for affecting change, must use force in response.

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the simple fact remains that they're attempting to impose their minority political ideaologies on all of society in the entire middle east

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IF their viewpoint were shared by the majority, then you would see a much more radicalized Middle East with the masses calling for Iranian style theocracies rather than what's currently happening ... a progression towards more westernized, secular states along with greater ties to the US and Europe

This "minority" will soon become a majority if the West continues to pursue its current course of action

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They cannot democratically accomplish what they are trying to do so they resort to force

Can anyone in the Middle East accomplish anything democratically?! Thats what terrorists do...resort to the only option left to them (violence) to achieve their aims

Our aim in the war on terror is to prevent us from being the target of terrorism. Nothing else. To do that, we can do many proactibe things (freeze suspected funds, mount covert military operations if we can, etc) but the main thing we must not do, which al-Qaida need, is to force the Muslim world to take the side of al-Qaida, which is what will happen every time we attack them (cos whether they are the intended target or not, they will feel like they are the target when they are killed in their 1000s like in Iraq or Afganistan) The more support al-Qaida get, obviously the easier it will get to attack us. Basically, the more the Muslim world side with al-Qaida, the more we are all at risk...

But to be perfectly honest, I think our safety is the last thing on the US governments minds, I think they are merely using al-Qaida the same way they used the threat of Communism to chase after ulterior foreign policy objectives...(which explains why they want you to think Iraq, for example, had anything to do with the war on terror, and it is why they promote this false belief that al-Qaida want to take over the world, just like the USSR, as many people here have demonstrated a similar belief)

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