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-- Loophole In Smoking Bylaw! Puff Away!
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Aside from all of the wasted bandwidth in this thread, I wonder how this weekend will bear out the reality of the new law as the clubs get cranked up with the big crowds.

God, why are these threads always so long? It's quite simple really. IT IS NOW AGAINST THE LAW TO SMOKE IN CLUBS.

Yes there may be loopholes, just like there are loopholes with other municipal laws like parking tickets (i.e. if half your car is behind the no parking sign you technically should not get a ticket, but you will anyway). The point is that you get slapped with the fine anyway, you're expected to cooperate and if you don't then they can call the police. The loopholes won't help you unless you're willing to invest a lot of time and/or money in fighting the case in court, and even then, it's very likely that the judge will listen to the law-enforcement side and not you.

And it doesn't kill business. Just fuck off with that already Jay, I know you were probably far too busy to read the essay I wrote on it (although evidently not too busy to search for and post hundreds of pro-smoking articles), but the fact is that saying "business has dropped 10% since the ban was instituted" proves jack shit because business is dropping 10% every year ANYWAY, it's a RECESSION for christ's sake.

Edit: it's not like bouncers ever cared about legalities anyway. They can beat the shit out of you and throw you out of the club at a whim - what are you going to do? Complain to the owner? Sue them? Go ahead, I'd like to see you try.

End of discussion!

PH: parking offences and other MUNICIPAL highway offences do not fall under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Oh and one more for those who don't think this affects business. quote: Irish law hurts pubs Associated Press DUBLIN PUBS are losing customers because of Ireland's decision to ban smoking from workplaces, the main bar owners' association said yesterday. Business has slipped from 12% to 15% since smoking was banned in pubs on March 29, said Donall O'Keeffe, chief executive of the Licenced Vintners Association, which represents about 700 pubs in the capital. "We expected April to be very bad and things to improve. That hasn't happened and is of great concern to us," O'Keeffe said. "While the impact is not totally uniform across Dublin pubs, make no mistake about it, the smoking ban is having a serious financial impact."

Actually i can vouch for the truth of that statement. Some of you know i live in Ireland... The pubs here are suffering. It's true. The majority of the crowd that went to pubs after work or on a friday evening to watch the footie etc were smokers.

You should see the pubs now. There are so few people in there it's crazy. Pubs that i had to walk by to go to school every day were full of people before the smoking ban. Now? I'd say they've lost a good 1/4 if not almost 1/2 of their clientele.

Another trend i have seen developping over here too... A lot of the older crowd (we're talking family men mainly) used to go to the pub to chill and have a few beers with their mates. As they can't do this anymore, where do you think they smoke? Yup. At home. In their living room or wherever. With their kids there too. The amount of people smoking at home because they can't do it anywhere else (it's too bloody cold here at night to smoke outside) is increasing meaning that most of the time, their children are even more exposed to second hand smoke than they were before.
Personally, i don't believe this to be a good thing. Maybe you're happy because it's not you dying, and you know... fair enough. But after this what next? Banning smoking in homes? I think not.

In a country that has a HUGE amount of smokers (such as Ireland) banning smoking in pubs and clubs to accomodate the few non-smokers who actually got off their asses to say they didn't like it is absolutely ridiculous.

Before the smoking ban, the university i go to took a poll to find out what the student population a) thought of the ban, and b) if they should go ahead and stop smoking on our campus bar before the ban took place. Results? Close to 90% of the student population thought the ban was a big joke. And we kept smoking in our bar until the ban came in. After the ban took place, the university bar closed down. Why? Because no one went there anymore. Now we just buy our alcohol in shops, go home, invite a few friends over, and have a cigarette or 20 with our friends without having people nagging us to put our cigarettes out.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 PH: parking offences and other MUNICIPAL highway offences do not fall under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.

Are you a moron? That's the reason I picked parking violations, because they fall under the category of municipal by-laws JUST like the smoke-free by-law.

I predict the same fate in Toronto especially when winter comes around...

Those who think it wont affect business here when it has in EVERY other jurisdiction are just fooling themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Superstar Oh ok... so just because they "werent suppose" to be smoking means they can have their cigarettes confiscated? Really? "your" so smart!!!111 So why can 14 year olds smoke on the sidewalks of their schools and no one does anything about it? Where is the law that says minors cannot posess or smoke cigarettes? Oh shit, there isn't one... Damn, guess there goes your brilliant theory. Hey guess what has a lower brain capacity than shoelace? Hint: it starts with "R" and ends with "odrico"

Yeah except their is a law that does all that except that its not enforced by police (why cause cops have better things to do then stop little punks from smoking), also cause no one really cares about 14 years old trying to be cool and defiant against the law and that of their unfair, tyrannical parents, bent on making their lives somesort of suburban tragedy...Oh woe is the average 14 year old life. Ever wonder why store owners are supposed to ask you for ID when you buy cigarettes, hey, now you know!(its the law, yay! arent we learning something new today) I dont actually know for sure if its 16, 18, or 19 that you can possess tabacco in the province of Ontario (if someone can verify the age it is as I am unsure). So there you go, there is a law, and guess what, your WRONG! also, dont use my own insults at me, only one person here has the IQ of a shoelace, and I am pretty sure its you.

As for Flec, I dont think all young kids are stupid, I just think its rather stupid for under-aged clubbers who speak about over-aged topics especially when they show to reveal no real insight and experience about said given subject. I guess I shouldnt of generalized against all of you, but dont worry, your day will come too if you post stupid crap like super-retard.

I think I will have to somewhat agree with Jayx1 for the bars in the winter time, alot of those small, and old bars that were meant for older men to get together and have a few beers and watch the game, have a couple smokes, those will feel the greater affect of the smoking ban, cause its big entertainment complexs like major nightclubs and major bars that attract a young and fresh crowd with good DJs and good parties that will always thrive. But one has to remember not every bar survives off those types of events, not every bar is geared towards that, as some survive by the regulars who come in to wash away their woes with a good mug and brass colored ashtray. I will sadly miss my old and dingy sports cafes, where one can smoke and play gitoni while watching your favorite soccer team play on a 20 inch screen in the corner...*sniff*

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 You are wrong. The police are not able to enforce bylaws as it does not fall under their juridiction. The Toronto police takes care of bylaws when it comes to parking and traffic because they have set up a special division to handle bylaw services. If you notice they have special cars, special uniforms and dont carry guns. They are not cops. They are bylaw enforcement officers run by the Toronto Police. They are 2 completely different entities under the law. A bylaw officer is not much of a step above a civilian in the eyes of the law. ...

fair enough...I wasn't sure...all articles and reports have been pretty vague on that issue. oh well...dumb bylaw design?

I puff puff away

I am puffing away likea magic dragon at friends house

fun stuff i tell you - goin out on thier patios and such is always fun and ever since this by-law I have been homesoprtin - call me if yu wanna come by!!!

it's all good

Dallas

thanks to all those TA's that helped me - lord knows u needed a smoke after that!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 I predict the same fate in Toronto especially when winter comes around... Those who think it wont affect business here when it has in EVERY other jurisdiction are just fooling themselves.

1. Do you think anyone gives a fuck what you predict?

2. It hasn't hurt business in ANY other jurisdiction, and repeating it over and over again won't make it true. There are no legitimate studies that prove it, only unfounded claims and rumours much like the ones which used to circulate about chocolate causing acne and caffeine destroying auditory nerves.

You find me evidence that doesn't start with the words "bar owners claim", and maybe I'll listen.

Your right, after all what would bar owners know about how much money they are making at any given time?

^ Sure, they know how much money they make, but do they really know WHY they are making less? NO.

quote:

Those who think it wont affect business here when it has in EVERY other jurisdiction are just fooling themselves.

*bullsht*. I'm from a place where it when non-smoking a few years back, and the clubs AND pubs are doing just as well now, if not BETTER than they were doing before.

But, now you'll probably dismiss THAT as anecdotal.

Perhaps it worked in the area you lived in. Hopefully it will work here. Im just saying that in most cases it hasnt worked.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Your right, after all what would bar owners know about how much money they are making at any given time?

Of course they know, but it doesn't stop them from being able to claim whatever kind of bullshit they want in an interview. The simple fact of the matter is that they've never been able to produce one iota of paper evidence that they've lost any amount of money significant enough to correlate with smoke-free bylaws. And even if they could, correlation still is not proof of causation.

I can tell you one reason why some *big* club owners lose business. Because the bylaw officers are keeping their eyes peeled inside the clubs and their house dealers have to be a lot more careful. They sell less, the club makes less under-the-table cash, and that's exactly why they know they're losing money but don't have the official figures to support it.

First... Bylaw officers can look for drugs all they want. They cant do anything about it. They arent the police. Bylaw officers are nothing more than legally bonded citizens.

Second... If clubs and bars didnt lose money due to this law, why would the owners make so much effort to decry this law? If there was no effect don't you think the bar owners would be happy?

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