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Originally posted by Floorfiller as i already explained a couple of pages ago...i'm really just indifferent to gays. its doesn't effect my life so i don't concern myself with it. what i was refering to more was your idealized sense of the united states and its traditional forms of moral guidance. religion is my favorite subject to argue about hehehe...as i'm sure anyone who's been on the forums very long could probably tell you. i didn't say that i approached homosexuality from a religious standpoint, i said that religion is what clouds the mind and takes meaning away from things. your last post said that "homosexuality feels morally wrong" to you. that's a complete cop out answer. what that is saying is that i really don't have any answer to you question except that i believe it because that's what i was taught. well, where did you obtain those outlooks, those values? if i had to guess i would say your family and some sort of religious guidance. and to that i say the same thing that i always say...how can you put faith into something that you have not discovered yourself?

You should spend more time in the Political forum with me.

I was raised by atheistical parents. I went to church but hated it. I didn't believe until about 2 years ago. I can actually say I have discovered it myself... I can share some stories with you if you want.

Anyway, in reference to this statement:

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i said that religion is what clouds the mind and takes meaning away from things.

From my standpoint - religion is what gives meaning to things. It's like what C.S. Lewis said: If religion is false, then it is of little importance. If it is true, then it is of the utmost importance.

So I find embracing the beliefs of what I and most of the country believe in to be very pertinent. I'm not saying be close-minded about everything - but using religion as a moral guide for our country is EXACTLY what we need - it's there to draw the lines when you should. (Like in this case)

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and of course...i always try to point out that if self discovery leads you to a certain religion, then i have nothing to argue with you about because you obviously have some reason for believing...i just wish that you might share that reasoning with me because i personally can't believe in something without a rationale understanding of it. and of course religious people will say that faith is believing in something that you can't prove and then i'll just say, but why do you have faith and then they'll say that i don't know...you just have to and then we'll just be right back where we were...bla bla bla.. life is too short hehehe

I know exactly why I have faith. - Life is meaningless without it (in my opinion) - If you take an atheistical, Fruedian outlook on life, you'll end up be just as decrepid and miserable as he was his entire life. Faith begins with getting rid of "pride" and being humble - and realizing that there are things in this world that you can't understand. Just don't stand on an untouchable, all-knowing intellectual chair like I did most of my life. You believe in what you believe in, for whatever purposes - but if you get past the stereotypes and stigma's of religion - you might actually like it.

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Originally posted by Seventil From my standpoint - religion is what gives meaning to things. It's like what C.S. Lewis said: If religion is false, then it is of little importance. If it is true, then it is of the utmost importance.

i was waiting for that hehehe . and i do see and understand that viewpoint. it however, does not justify belief in something to which my own explorations tell me isn't truth. i have nothing against religons, what i have a problem with is people blindly associating themselves with them simply because its whats common. if you've come to this conclusion on your own...then that is great...good for you.

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I know exactly why I have faith. - Life is meaningless without it (in my opinion) - If you take an atheistical, Fruedian outlook on life, you'll end up be just as decrepid and miserable as he was his entire life. Faith begins with getting rid of "pride" and being humble - and realizing that there are things in this world that you can't understand. Just don't stand on an untouchable, all-knowing intellectual chair like I did most of my life. You believe in what you believe in, for whatever purposes - but if you get past the stereotypes and stigma's of religion - you might actually like it.

see i don't agree with that. i think that if you rely on your religion because you have no reason for life otherwise, then that is kinda sad. and i don't think that maintaining a non-religious lifestyle will lead to a miserable life, quite the opposite in fact. there is a difference between being non-religious and being pessimistic about everything.

i would also say that i am quite humble. i do not expect to understand everything in the world, but at the same time i feel no shame in trying to obtain as much knowledge as i can to explain that which i believe. and to my discovery, there is nothing logical about religion and therefore i don't place any faith in it.

i'm sure a religious approach to life can be quite enjoyable as you said, but i cannot sit and ignorantly ignore my desire to know and in effect lie to myself in order to be religious when i truly feel the opposite.

Im still waiting for someones argument as to the "rightness" of homosexuality. Im sick of defending my point of view, lets turn it around a bit shall we?

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Originally posted by Orbax Im still waiting for someones argument as to the "rightness" of homosexuality. Im sick of defending my point of view, lets turn it around a bit shall we?

amen to that..here waiting with u

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Originally posted by Orbax Im still waiting for someones argument as to the "rightness" of homosexuality. Im sick of defending my point of view, lets turn it around a bit shall we?

i don't think it can be proven right .

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Originally posted by Floorfiller i don't think it can be proven right .

What I dont get, in the end, is how people can viciously attack your stance, and you for having it, yet have no real opinion on their own except being Not-You.

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Originally posted by Orbax What I dont get, in the end, is how people can viciously attack your stance, and you for having it, yet have no real opinion on their own except being Not-You.

well if you really want i can make up some bullshit about how what really matters is the feelings of love bla bla and how that attraction justifies it, but that isn't what you wanna hear hehehe

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Originally posted by Floorfiller well if you really want i can make up some bullshit about how what really matters is the feelings of love bla bla and how that attraction justifies it, but that isn't what you wanna hear hehehe

hehe, mainly because thats the only argument ive ever heard, and its rather easy to dismiss

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Originally posted by Orbax hehe, mainly because thats the only argument ive ever heard, and its rather easy to dismiss

well is homosexuality nature ot nurture? what u think

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Originally posted by tranceaholic well is homosexuality nature ot nurture? what u think

The action or the feeling

and if you want to get on the subject of tendencies people have from birth and whether they should be allowed to act them out just because their brain functions in a particular way or the thought of doing something is attractive to them....

hooboy.

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Originally posted by Orbax The action or the feeling and if you want to get on the subject of tendencies people have from birth and whether they should be allowed to act them out just because their brain functions in a particular way or the thought of doing something is attractive to them.... hooboy.

that's a good point. you cannot use something like that to justify being gay, but not use it to defend someone that is a serial killer or something.

of course then the argument of environment comes up hehehe...for both situations.

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Originally posted by Orbax Im still waiting for someones argument as to the "rightness" of homosexuality. Im sick of defending my point of view, lets turn it around a bit shall we?

This whole notion of proving something to be morally right or wrong is quite silly. Morality is a human invention that differs from each individual. Homosexuality like many other things is an aberration that just happens. Fundies like yourself inevitably try to impose your morals on others. No one is asking for you to become gay or take pleasure in watching others engage in it. Just live your life the way you see fit and world will get on just fine.

better yet, let's get back on the topic

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Originally posted by Floorfiller see i don't agree with that. i think that if you rely on your religion because you have no reason for life otherwise, then that is kinda sad. and i don't think that maintaining a non-religious lifestyle will lead to a miserable life, quite the opposite in fact. there is a difference between being non-religious and being pessimistic about everything. i would also say that i am quite humble. i do not expect to understand everything in the world, but at the same time i feel no shame in trying to obtain as much knowledge as i can to explain that which i believe. and to my discovery, there is nothing logical about religion and therefore i don't place any faith in it. i'm sure a religious approach to life can be quite enjoyable as you said, but i cannot sit and ignorantly ignore my desire to know and in effect lie to myself in order to be religious when i truly feel the opposite.

Although I normally engage in these conversations whilst drunk - Entertain me, if you would.

If there is no God (which you believe) - what is the meaning to life? What ultimate satisfaction can we (as people) reach, in our lifetimes? If you say sexual reproduction or fullfillment, you're falling right into a Fruedian outlook on life. If you can live that way, more power to you, but I know I couldn't. If I'm simply here just to fall in love, have some kids, and die - sure, it's fun, but what the hell purpose would that be for?

As for your comment on nothing logical about religion... how can you justify that? While I'll admit you can't call God on a payphone or witness miracles and other supernatural events(like back in the old day) - how can you discount personal testimonies and documents explaining these things, which were embraced by the people that lived during that time?

Just curious. Not even sure if anyone is talking about this subject anymore. Good stuff, though. Thought provoking, at least.

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Originally posted by igottaknow Just live your life the way you see fit and world will get on just fine.

that theory falls apart when someones :life the way they see fit: involves changing other peoples views or killing them or colonializing them.

Not everyones dreams are of hermitude

hitler for example. He led life exactly how he wanted to. Except the end part where he lost and killed himself.

If nothing else, there are people in the world who think these things and will try to act on them, and I think its pretty interesting to see exactly WHAT motivates people to do the things they do.

I was just thinking that someone out there mightve had an opinion considering the hostility that was shown towards me, lol.

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Originally posted by Seventil Although I normally engage in these conversations whilst drunk - Entertain me, if you would. If there is no God (which you believe) - what is the meaning to life? What ultimate satisfaction can we (as people) reach, in our lifetimes? If you say sexual reproduction or fullfillment, you're falling right into a Fruedian outlook on life. If you can live that way, more power to you, but I know I couldn't. If I'm simply here just to fall in love, have some kids, and die - sure, it's fun, but what the hell purpose would that be for?

first, i never claimed to not believe in some form of higher being. What i meant to say is that i don't believe in religions in the form that they so often take in the world...so if i stated that wrong before, that is what i should have said. With that said, i don't know what to think as far as a God...i'm uncertain, but what i am certain of is that fact that i'm here and i owe myself the most i can offer. I think all religions should be a completely internal spirituality because that would seem to be, in my mind, the truest from of belief. Since i don't hold any significant religious ties, i'm free to concentrate on myself and doing what i see as living a satisfactory life, whether you brand that finding love, or happiness whatever.

i could of course ask you the same question? what is the point of living just for a religion. i see that it gives you a purpose in that you are trying to obtain a good place with god or whatever, but how is that different from obtaining a good standing with yourself? if our purpose in life is the afterlife, that just seems silly to me.

quote:

As for your comment on nothing logical about religion... how can you justify that? While I'll admit you can't call God on a payphone or witness miracles and other supernatural events(like back in the old day) - how can you discount personal testimonies and documents explaining these things, which were embraced by the people that lived during that time? Just curious. Not even sure if anyone is talking about this subject anymore. Good stuff, though. Thought provoking, at least.

the first thing that jumps out at me from this is witnessing miracles like back in the old day. how can we be sure that there were any miracles to begin with and not just someone's ignorant misinterpretation of the world? i for one do not believe in the bible. i believe that there is historical significance to it definitely, but the stories within to me are merely alegory. the only way i can see justifying a religion to myself, and lets just take for instance christianity, is if i myself have become witness to some sort of miracle. anything short of that will always leave me in doubt.

i don't mean to offend you, but i think it is a little ridiculous to so easily accept things that we know so little about, in this case past miracles. do you also believe in the miracles of other religions through out history? do you believe that the egyptians or the romans stories of gods and whatever are true as well? of course not. so why do we so easily attribute the writings of chrisitian thought to so high a position?

i'll admit. one of my biggest problems with christianity is the church. i think i could write a book on the corruption and mis guidance of the church to its followers. and these are the people that created the writings that we are meant to believe? why would one thing be left untouched and pure when so much has been contaminated? it just sounds like a lot of crap to me. i'm sure this is nothing that you haven't heard before hehehe.

orbax you sure do refer to hitler a lot in your posts....


and the first time around, i was simply speaking my mind...i worded it that way instead of saying, "guys who say that are usually gay themselves"....it would have been obvious that i was referring to you, so i just came out and said it anyway to cut straight to the point. i can't help but see your posts in a black and white way....meaning, that if it wasn't true, you wouldn't have gotten all bent out of shape and pissed off at me for assuming that maybe you had gay tendencies earlier in life and are ashamed of them.

i'm not saying you're gay, but i just found it funny that you reacted so offensively.

after you started putting subtle threats in your posts to me, like, "i wouldn't do that if i were you"...or something along the lines of that, yea, i did push buttons on purpose because i don't put up with stuff like that. don't mess with me unless you can handle being messed with back.

there was a green flaky thing at the bottom of my cup that looked like a booger, but I drank it anyways because im fucking crazy and boogers cant get me down baby

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Originally posted by Slylee orbax you sure do refer to hitler a lot in your posts....

you cant say he didnt change the world interesting case study.

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i'm not saying you're gay, but i just found it funny that you reacted so offensively.

well, not that im equivocating homosexuality with this but if someone came up to you and said "You just dont like deviant sexual behavior because one time you strapped on a dildo and rammed it in the butt of a pig because you love sweaty shitty pigs squealing near your genitals"

Yahhh might take some offense, regardless of how true it is.

There is some truth to the Shakespearean "Methinks he doth protest too much" but in this case I was merely having to resay and reword what I originally posted because I was being misunderstood and I didnt feel that what I was trying to say was coming across clearly and effectively.

I feel that Ive shown Im a pretty smart guy sometimes and to chalk my opinions to religious fanatacism, or closet homosexuality, or baby raper, or whatever is offensive.

The other part of that was how that , ok lets assume this is true for a moment. How did that de-legitimize anything I had said?

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Originally posted by Slylee orbax you sure do refer to hitler a lot in your posts....

you know you've lost the argument when you need hitler to prove ur point

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i'm not saying you're gay, but i just found it funny that you reacted so offensively. after you started putting subtle threats in your posts to me, like, "i wouldn't do that if i were you"

I think if orby had a gf he'd be more secure in his sexuality and wouldn't have to bash gays to prove his manhood. Orb don't go crying to us that we hurt ur feelings ur the one who hijacked the thread so don't start something you can't finish. No need to make threats against ppl who don't see things your way.

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Originally posted by igottaknow you know you've lost the argument when you need resort to envoking hitler I think if orby had a gf he'd be more secure in his sexuality and have less time for gay bashing. Orb don't go cry to us that we hurt ur feelings ur the one who hijacked the thread so don't start something you can't finish. No need to make threats against ppl who don't see things your way.

sigh,,, more assumptions. The end of that sentence was

"I suggest keeping your 'insights' to yourself in the future if you want to have a good relationship with me on the boards."

And when did I ever stop for a second there chief? Im the one keeping it going.

Your assumption that I dont have a girlfriend therefore have had no experience with women is a faulty argument. You have already shown a propensity towards dislike and reading my comments and thoughts in the most twisted way possible. You have lost all credibility with me on these boards by not being able to stay objective on serious issues.

Keep on chuggin though, im sure youll get little flashes of glee every time you hit that reply button and think youve "zinged" me with another brilliant attack from IgottaKNow

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Originally posted by Orbax you cant say he didnt change the world interesting case study.

ok, so i think i can safely assume that you look up to hitler given that comment and smiley face?? you need fucking help if that's true. he is right up there with the antichrist if you ask me.

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well, not that im equivocating homosexuality with this but if someone came up to you and said "You just dont like deviant sexual behavior because one time you strapped on a dildo and rammed it in the butt of a pig because you love sweaty shitty pigs squealing near your genitals" Yahhh might take some offense, regardless of how true it is.

umm, let's not be too extreme there, that is no where near the caliber of what i posted.

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There is some truth to the Shakespearean "Methinks he doth protest too much" but in this case I was merely having to resay and reword what I originally posted because I was being misunderstood and I didnt feel that what I was trying to say was coming across clearly and effectively. I feel that Ive shown Im a pretty smart guy sometimes and to chalk my opinions to religious fanatacism, or closet homosexuality, or baby raper, or whatever is offensive. The other part of that was how that , ok lets assume this is true for a moment. How did that de-legitimize anything I had said?

ok fine, then shrug it off like i said. you just admitted that you needed to reword because you were being misunderstood, so you might as well be saying you understand why, or agreeing that you were being misunderstood, so can you blame me for making assumptions in the first place?

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Originally posted by Slylee ok, so i think i can safely assume that you look up to hitler given that comment and smiley face?? you need fucking help if that's true. he is right up there with the antichrist if you ask me.

No, I dont. Historians agree that he was in the right place and time to have great impact. He was a charismatic, brilliant orator who gathered a broken nation. He was also a fucked up jew killing piece of shit. I cant imagine any other way of fixing someone like him other than blowing his brains out. But you gotta at least admit that his German War Machine was pretty intense.

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umm, let's not be too extreme there, that is no where near the caliber of what i posted.

agreed. Im just saying that the truth of the comment doesnt have anything to do with the reaction of the person

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ok fine, then shrug it off like i said. you just admitted that you needed to reword because you were being misunderstood, so you might as well be saying you understand why, or agreeing that you were being misunderstood, so can you blame me for making assumptions in the first place?

No blame. I just wish it hadnt happened. I was also a little shocked anyone might think that of me.

i still have yet to see you cut straight to the point or summarize in any of your posts...all you do is write these long fancy posts w/ reference to dead people's quotes, yada yada.... it just goes in circles...


"you assumed that i assumed that you assumed that i assumed...."


lol

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Originally posted by Slylee i still have yet to see you cut straight to the point or summarize in any of your posts...all you do is write these long fancy posts w/ reference to dead people's quotes, yada yada.... it just goes in circles... "you assumed that i assumed that you assumed that i assumed...." lol

whats your point

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