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Originally posted by PETRAN Yes, genres such as house were originated in the mid-80s, but the term "EDM" was used much later to collectively describe house, techno, trance etc. etc. Rap was made with electronic equipment but i consider it to be different then EDM e e.g. rap was not made strictly for dancing, was usually much slower, it had extensive vocals etc. etc. etc.

It doesn't matter if something was made strictly for dancing. You can sit at home in a recliner and listen to a waltz and have a good time of it if waltzes are your thing, but that doesn't mean that a waltz isn't a kind of dance music.

Rappers make electronic music and expect people to dance to it. It's EDM.

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Furthermore they will refuse to be musically open to other genres, especially in the case that these other genres are considered inferior to the genre which the specific artist is assigned to.

That's unfortunate, but trying to ask people like this to stop being narrow-minded and "bigoted" about music is pretty futile. Probably ever since there has been more than one kind of music listeners who like one type have made fun of listeners who like other types.

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As a result it can become dangerous. Its better to leave the over-extensive classification for science then. Art is there to be free, not to be constrained.

We're all dealing with the same tracks. Some tracks have supersaws, others don't. Some tracks have 303s and others don't. Some people hate 303s and love supersaws. Others hate supersaws and love 303s. Some people hate big breakdowns, others love them.

Genre names just make it easier to let other people know what you like and don't like. The objective elements of the tracks are the same no matter how you classify them. The names are shorthand for saying things like, "Oh, I like the sort of tracks that go at such and such a speed, use such and such types of synths, have a such and such bassline, have this kind of breakdown, have this sort of vocals," on and on and on. That's all it is.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles That's unfortunate, but trying to ask people like this to stop being narrow-minded and "bigoted" about music is pretty futile. Probably ever since there has been more than one kind of music listeners who like one type have made fun of listeners who like other types.

Hehe. I can just picture it in Pre-Historic times now...

Grog: "I like Rock-On-Rock."
Gorg: "You music suck. Club-On-Rock better!"
Rorg: "N00bs! Club-On-Tree-Trunk true art."

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Originally posted by PETRAN a reason is that rap was existing years before the term EDM was inveneted somewhere in the 90s)

House and techno also existed long before the 90s. Ergo they are not EDM either, correct?

I really don't mind a new genre if the person who creates it knows what he's talking about.

That is obviously not the case here. Ferry Corsten is, and will always be, a trancetwat.

who the fuck associated rap with trance. why are we even talking about rap now, once again mrjivejobingles does a great job. haha:

that is the worst comparison ive ever heard to try and get your point across about trance

I think it's a rather good one, since many times the listeners of those two genres don't want to be associated with the listeners of the other genre, which is one of the reasons that genre terms arise in the first place.

when eminem makes a rapping vocal mix to a push track then there is no reason to say that that couldnt be a genre (as if that would happen though lol), the same goes with electrotrance. there is no reason why some electro elements cant be combined with trance and then whoa we have "electrotrance" which btw has already been done . but still it isnt a defined genre yet but just like all genre's you dont just have a few tracks and suddenly the genre is born, it takes time. there were probably people like u when prog trance, nrg, hardstyle were made arguing that its not a real genre but now they are all well known sub genre's of trance.

the same thing will most likely happen with electrotrance whether u like it or not, it happened with house (electrohouse) and with the popularity of that its going to be inievetable (spelling? lol) that it happens to trance one day...

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles It doesn't matter if something was made strictly for dancing. You can sit at home in a recliner and listen to a waltz and have a good time of it if waltzes are your thing, but that doesn't mean that a waltz isn't a kind of dance music. Rappers make electronic music and expect people to dance to it. It's EDM.

I'm not gonna enter in an endless discussion about whether rap belongs to the EDM category or not. Since there are no objective criteria we are all correct. I think that a better way to form a more valid opinion would be to ask people that play and listen to rap to tell us what they think about the relation between rap and EDM.

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That's unfortunate, but trying to ask people like this to stop being narrow-minded and "bigoted" about music is pretty futile. Probably ever since there has been more than one kind of music listeners who like one type have made fun of listeners who like other types.

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We're all dealing with the same tracks. Some tracks have supersaws, others don't. Some tracks have 303s and others don't. Some people hate 303s and love supersaws. Others hate supersaws and love 303s. Some people hate big breakdowns, others love them. Genre names just make it easier to let other people know what you like and don't like. The objective elements of the tracks are the same no matter how you classify them. The names are shorthand for saying things like, "Oh, I like the sort of tracks that go at such and such a speed, use such and such types of synths, have a such and such bassline, have this kind of breakdown, have this sort of vocals," on and on and on. That's all it is.

You misunderstood my statements. Of course what you say is completely correct since it follows from simple logic. Its unavoidable to have basic genre names. Rap is a ype of music comprised by a basic slow rhythm and a guy rhiming endlessly on top, whereas trance has a fast rhythm, a melodic-line and looped arpeggiations. Its unavoidable that they are going to be perceived in different ways and hence assigned different names no probs with that.

What is useless and even bad in my opinion is the "over-categerosiation" in terms of sub-genres. Its ok to have a distinction between rap and trance, but i cant see how much does it help to have a distinction between fast trance with super-saw lead-line (epic), trance with whatever lead-line on top of housy rhythm (progressive)and faster then epic trance with sine lead-line or whatever (psy). IMO not only they are not helpfull at all, they can limit one's taste, they can stereotype, constrain and limit the musical expression of the musician (in order to be "politically correct", a musician "should" produce similar music to the SUB-genre he/she is assigned to) as well as cause general confusion, a fact that this thread (and maaanyy others) gloriously demonstrate (since the slight differences between sub-genres can easily collapse and "shift" between categories).


And to talk in a bit more evolutionary-psychological terms, the emergence of categorisation derived because it had a specific evolutionary function, the function being to seggregate an ever-changing environement in discrete entities (categories).Humans could refer to the attributes of these categories,foresee consequences and act accordingly. It is essential to form a superordinate category that contains the distinction between "animals" and "plants". It could be important to form an ordinate category for plants that contains "trees", "herbs" and "flowers". It would definitelly be important then to have a sub-ordinate category with herbs that "kill" and herbs that "heal". Categorisation to that degree had a clear evolutionary advantage.


Sub-genre categorisation probably derives from that basic mechanism which is useless in terms of music. How helpfull can it be other then limit your taste? You may say that it helps you understand what sounds you prefer but that bollocks in my opinion, the opposite probably happens. Its hard to see how a person who likes 4/4 rhythms and melodic lead-lines could preferentially like progressive in comparison to epic and the opposite. Its only slight differences in sound and speed that makes the difference for god's sake.Rather then that,i believe that a person "learns" to like one in comparison to the other.( because "prog" is cooler or whatever). The same thing unfortunately occurs with musicians as well and hence we get these very limited genres of music. So, yes i would say drop "sub-genre" categorisations alltogether!

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Originally posted by Sykonee Hehe. I can just picture it in Pre-Historic times now... Grog: "I like Rock-On-Rock." Gorg: "You music suck. Club-On-Rock better!" Rorg: "N00bs! Club-On-Tree-Trunk true art."

That was awesome.

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Originally posted by trancepunkk there is no reason why some electro elements cant be combined with trance and then whoa we have "electrotrance" which btw has already been done

I doubt that you know what elements of electro are. I really doubt that you know what the elements of trance are.

At least prove that you're qualified to make such statements. Tell me what every trance track has that is not widely used in another genre. Tell me what every electro track has that is not widely used in another genre. Then I will know whether you should even be making such statements.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Sub-genre categorisation probably derives from that basic mechanism which is useless in terms of music. How helpfull can it be other then limit your taste? You may say that it helps you understand what sounds you prefer but that bollocks in my opinion, the opposite probably happens. Its hard to see how a person who likes 4/4 rhythms and melodic lead-lines could preferentially like progressive in comparison to epic and the opposite. Its only slight differences in sound and speed that makes the difference for god's sake.Rather then that,i believe that a person "learns" to like one in comparison to the other.( because "prog" is cooler or whatever). The same thing unfortunately occurs with musicians as well and hence we get these very limited genres of music. So, yes i would say drop "sub-genre" categorisations alltogether!

For the most part, sub-genres have been derived from scenes rather than actual music. A group of folks try something different, it gets played in that localized setting, word spreads, more folks check it out, and soon you have a new scene that's sprung up from a new sound. In order to differentiate themselves from another scene (because, after all, anything underground HAS to be unique and different from everything else), this sound, however minutely different from other ones, becomes a new sub-genre of music because of the new scene that sprung up around it. Funny thing though is soon enough it just blends into pre-existing music scenes as others pick up on it.

This is why I really haven't bought into 'electro' house as a new genre (although there is some stuff out there I would deem proper). It's more or less the same scene that tech house always encompassed, and, more recently, hard house as well (with the march-a-long simple rhythms being the focus). It's just a different bunch of pre-sets doing the same thing as before.

whats the big deal about calling the farty bass / buzz synth house thats so popular these days electro? just cuz most of its crap, there is some good stuff that uses that sound.

John Dahlback - Late Night Worries (Guy Gerber Special K Mix)
Mike Monday - Bhalobashi
Jim Rivers - Route One
Lindstrom - I Feel Space
Dirk Technic - I Love You

If thats not electro house than what is it? Ok so maybe it's not true electro back when the genre was "born" but what are you supposed to call songs like these?


also can someone recommend me some true electro songs from back in the day, becuase back when "real" electro was born i was probably about 5 years old and not listening to EDM

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong whats the big deal about calling the farty bass / buzz synth house thats so popular these days electro?

Like, read the thread.

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If thats not electro house than what is it?

Some other kind of house.

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Ok so maybe it's not true electro back when the genre was "born"

It's not true electro now, either.

ok I agree with you, but when people ask me what kind of music I play, I'm not going to tell them "I play trend house" or "I play some other kind of house". I'll tell them electro house or nu-electro or something like that becuse thats what everyone elese calls it, thats what it's labeled on beatport. As much as we may not like it and as much as it may suck, people will associate anything farty bass / buzzing synth with the term electro.

what I'm trying to say is that until this kind of house gets its own genre name (and I have a feeling in a few years everyone will be tired of this "electro" trend in a few years anyways) I will call it that

It's good to see all the old faces back.

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong also can someone recommend me some true electro songs from back in the day, becuase back when "real" electro was born i was probably about 5 years old and not listening to EDM

Hmmm probably Africa Bambaataa stuff...Kraftwerk are considered the fathers of electro and pioneers of electronic music in general, but i consider them to be more part of the mind-blowing, experimental german 70s kraut-rock genre, with off-the-wall futuristic bands like Can, Neu!, Faust, Harmonia 76, Cluster, Tangerine Dream, Popol Vuh etc. etc.

I don't know about much electro per se but i love lots of 80s new-wave/synth-pop bands (also called electro-pop) like
Simple Minds, Ultravox, Killing Joke, Yello, The Fixx, A Flock of Seagulls, OMD, New Order (although Joy Division were much better), Clan of Xymox,Depeche Mode, The Human League, Gary Numan,Anything Box...

This was a very nice (cheesy at times, but cheesy in a nice way)emotional electronic type of music. I love how the bands were blending atmospheric synths, reverbed wet quitars, intense poppy vocals and nice futuristic sounds. It was an amazing genre. Italo- Disco was also good but IMO less serious and a bit "dodgy"...

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong ok I agree with you, but when people ask me what kind of music I play, I'm not going to tell them "I play trend house" or "I play some other kind of house". I'll tell them electro house or nu-electro or something like that becuse thats what everyone elese calls it, thats what it's labeled on beatport. As much as we may not like it and as much as it may suck, people will associate anything farty bass / buzzing synth with the term electro. what I'm trying to say is that until this kind of house gets its own genre name (and I have a feeling in a few years everyone will be tired of this "electro" trend in a few years anyways) I will call it that

See, just call it nu-electro, or at least something that differs from electro proper (if you HAVE to throw electro in there).

Personally, I call it either faux-electro or dirty tech.

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong also can someone recommend me some true electro songs from back in the day, becuase back when "real" electro was born i was probably about 5 years old and not listening to EDM

Man Parrish - Boogie Down (Bronx)
Newcleus - Computer Age
Newcleus - Space Is The Place
Herbie Hancock - Rockit
Paul Hardcastle - Forest Fire
Cybotron - R-9
Cybotron - Clear
Kraftwerk - The Man Machine
The Unknown DJ & Three D - Beatronic
Midnight Star - Operator
The Beat Club - Security
Dynamix II - Just Give The DJ A Break
Afrika Bambaataa & The Soulsonic Force - Looking For The Perfect Beat


For starters.

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Originally posted by TranceArmstrong also can someone recommend me some true electro songs from back in the day, becuase back when "real" electro was born i was probably about 5 years old and not listening to EDM

Are you fucking kidding? You were born in 1988. You weren't even a pile of cowshit when electro was born.

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Originally posted by Sykonee faux-electro

Damnit man, that's my term!

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Originally posted by distant Are you fucking kidding? You were born in 1988. You weren't even a pile of cowshit when electro was born.

That's why I was asking

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Originally posted by distant Are you fucking kidding? You were born in 1988. You weren't even a pile of cowshit when electro was born.

I was a pile of cowshit when electro was born. No wait, i'm a pile of cowshit now. I was a piece of cowshit on the sandal of Jesus after he stepped in a pile of cowshit when electro was born.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Damnit man, that's my term!

What? You chose nu-electro.

...although, we can just both use faux-electro from now on, heh.

electro trance is simply the fusion of electro rythm to trance music. so it's the beat of electro and the hypnosis of trance

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Originally posted by regenta Paul Hardcastle - Forest Fire

You're very right about this being electro. It's just borderline. I always hear this on contemparary smooth jazz radio stations and that's because it is except for the beat (or rhythm) which is very electro.

Great post regenta!

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