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quote:

Originally posted by FunkyGroove Canadian PM in airlift mission Harper�s Canadian Forces Airbus and another Canadian-chartered passenger jet took off from Larnaca last night with a combined 250 people aboard in the first airlift Ottawa has been able to muster since Israeli bombs began to rain down on Lebanon 10 days ago. Officials said Harper�s jet would touch down in the Canadian capital, while the other aircraft would head for Montreal where it�s believed most of the passengers reside. The flights would appear to salvage some pride for the Canadian Premier who had staked his reputation on bringing back home the first of an estimated 50,000 Canadians � the most of any country - out of Lebanon. Critics It would also assuage critics charging his flight was little more than a publicity stunt to gloss over Ottawa�s slow response.

Still convinced that Harper's trip to save the Canadians was ALSO intended to be a publicity stunt...

"Staked his reputation..." for being Pres. Bush's best friend...

Oh come on, as if his reputation could get any more tainted...

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* Have your opinion, and if it's not right...at least know it's better than his just b/c you're not a cocky asshole that thinks they're always right just b/c they live in Montreal.

...but not all from Montreal are like him......thank goodness!!

Yeah, personally, I'm not feeling the way he's addressing his arguments and at the same time making these attacks towards you, Lisa. It just makes his arguments 10 times weaker...

Don't waste your time and energy on the dude...

quote:

Originally posted by sticky_shoes Yeah, personally, I'm not feeling the way he's addressing his arguments and at the same time making these attacks towards you, Lisa. It just makes his arguments 10 times weaker... Don't waste your time and energy on the dude...

Thanks hun. And don't worry...I'm not wasting my time anymore. I have actual issues such as work, an exam and a pool party later to deal with then trying to defend myself over something I never said.

Ciao

Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard a couple of things to point out here (I could have picked any number of posts to make my points but this one won)..... a) Where these people were born and where they currently reside is inconsequential. What matters is that they are CANADIAN CITIZENS. As I stated earlier, we only have one class of citizen so all must be treated the same. IF CITIZENSHIP IS TO MEAN ANYTHING WE CANNOT QUALIFY IT, A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN, WE ALL HAVE THE SAME LEGAL STANDING. Being as we are a society based on the rule of law there is no negotiating this point. You may be pissed that on ocassion we get taken advantage of by people who become citizens for personal gain but I'll gladly accept that over abandoning the rule of law. b) Let's be very clear on this.... CANADA IS NOT DOING THESE PEOPLE A FAVOR.... We are not doing a nice thing, we are living up to our duty to our citizens. You may recall the Charter of Rights guarentees a Right to Security of the Person (to all Canadians... not just residents). In order satisfy this section of the Charter the State must take all reasonable and prudent measures to protect the lives of Canadian citizens. What's reasonable and prudent is debatable but I would hazard to guess most courts would find it unreasonable for the government to simply abandon these people.

thankyou for saying what I was trying to say in the beginning of the thread.

that ends my argument with jay

Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard a couple of things to point out here (I could have picked any number of posts to make my points but this one won)..... a) Where these people were born and where they currently reside is inconsequential. What matters is that they are CANADIAN CITIZENS. As I stated earlier, we only have one class of citizen so all must be treated the same. IF CITIZENSHIP IS TO MEAN ANYTHING WE CANNOT QUALIFY IT, A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN, WE ALL HAVE THE SAME LEGAL STANDING. Being as we are a society based on the rule of law there is no negotiating this point. You may be pissed that on ocassion we get taken advantage of by people who become citizens for personal gain but I'll gladly accept that over abandoning the rule of law. b) Let's be very clear on this.... CANADA IS NOT DOING THESE PEOPLE A FAVOR.... We are not doing a nice thing, we are living up to our duty to our citizens. You may recall the Charter of Rights guarentees a Right to Security of the Person (to all Canadians... not just residents). In order satisfy this section of the Charter the State must take all reasonable and prudent measures to protect the lives of Canadian citizens. What's reasonable and prudent is debatable but I would hazard to guess most courts would find it unreasonable for the government to simply abandon these people.

It's refreshing to hear an intelligent voice attempt to inject some much needed sensibility into what has so far been, a disappointing (and at times, bordering on childish) approach to a discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* And Kristina...don't worry about malek. I'm not even bothering with his posts any more b/c you're not going to get through to an asshole who's head is that big. Have your opinion, and if it's not right...at least know it's better than his just b/c you're not a cocky asshole that thinks they're always right just b/c they live in Montreal.

yeah for sure
I just felt that he was being overly rude for no reason whatsoever, all this namecalling was getting way to personal for a person who probably never even seen you in real life, just freaking disrespectful

quote:

Originally posted by sticky_shoes Still convinced that Harper's trip to save the Canadians was ALSO intended to be a publicity stunt... "Staked his reputation..." for being Pres. Bush's best friend... Oh come on, as if his reputation could get any more tainted...

100%, that's why I quoted the article! it's obviously a stunt, a poorly hidded one that is

Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 You forgot that most of the "Canadians" in lebanon are actually dual citizens that no longer live in canada. They are in fact lebanese who are now using the canadian passport for convenience. The government should evacuate canadian RESIDENTS only. The dual citizens who are non residents are actually residents of lebanon and should not be entitled to FREE PASSAGE. Do people get whine pills issued with their canadian passports? Just wondering.

To add to that, it's not even Canada's responsibility to evauate them!
Because most of them are dual-passport wielding Lebanese, it's actually the Lebanese government's responsibility to evacuate them according to Federal Canadian law.

Morally we just couldn't let that happen so anything that we did, they should be grateful for. Count on the MSM (Main-Stream-Media) to pick up on the whiners...

I don't mind people who come to Canada to make a life but I'm not a big fan of those 'citizens' that use us as the World's welcoming mat; they, in my opinion, have no right to bitch.

quote:

Holiday Inn Canadians National Post Saturday, July 22, 2006 The British have a term for them: bolt-holers. A bolt-hole is a secret route an animal digs from its burrow, out through which it can escape if ever a predator enters the main tunnel. In the human sense, bolt-holers are dual citizens who live in one country more or less permanently, yet retain a passport for a second, more stable country to which they can bolt if things get too "hot" at home. It is hard to know just how many of the 40,000 Canadian citizens registered with our embassy in Beirut are bolt-holers, but even a conservative estimate would place their share at 50%. While they are Canadians, and Canadian law requires that all citizens be treated equally, it is hard to work up as much sympathy for Canadians living full-time overseas as it is for those short-term Canadian visitors to Lebanon who suddenly found themselves trapped there. Census records place the number of naturalized Canadian citizens originally from Lebanon at nearly 150,000, although the Foreign Affairs department estimates the total could be nearer 250,000. Most arrived during that country's bloody 15-year civil war from 1975 to 1990. Compared to migrants from other nations, the Lebanese have been especially diligent at taking out Canadian citizenship. According to Immigration Department figures, over 80% have become Canadians versus an overall average of just 68% of all immigrants landed during the same period. In other words, there is no reason to doubt that the majority of Lebanese immigrants to Canada were grateful to be here and eager to join in Canadian society, at least initially. But in recent years, as strife in Lebanon has eased, the Canadian-Lebanese Chamber of Commerce estimates that between 25,000 and 30,000 moved back with little or no intention of returning to Canada. Others in the Lebanese-Canadian community believe that of the 16,000 evacuees expected on Canadian soil in the coming weeks, 4,000 or more will have no Canadian homes to go to, nor any family here to call on, so completely had they severed their ties with Canada before the current hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel broke out. This group might be called "Holiday Inn Canadians." They do not work here, pay no Canadian taxes, have little or no property or ties here. But they did have a Canadian passport. The situation is not unique to Lebanese-Canadians. There are thousands of bolt-hole Canadians living in Hong Kong, and other countries and regions around the world. Indeed, there are so many that Ottawa has over the years had to develop policies on how to deal with them and what rights and privileges they should have. In short, federal policy says that whenever a Canadian with dual citizenship is in the other country for which he holds a passport, he is the responsibility of that country's government, even if he is merely vacationing there. If that rule were applied rigorously to the current crisis, many of those Canadians clamouring for government assistance to get out of Lebanon would have to turn to the government there for help. Yet this fact seems lost on most of the Canadian media, who instead seem single-mindedly focused on manufacturing a phony scandal out of the fact that it's taken more than a few days to evacuate thousands of people stranded an ocean away. And so Canadians have gotten the false impression that our government is being derelict -- when in fact it is doing far more for many of these citizens than is owed under established policy. Obviously, Canadians returning to their countries of origin for a few weeks' holiday with family and friends should be treated no differently from Canadian-born citizens touring a foreign country when hostilities break out. But for the rest, for those who are Canadians on paper but Lebanese in fact, Ottawa's policy makes sense. And Canadian diplomatic officials should begin informing our globe-trotting citizens of it. That way, the next time war breaks out, Holiday Inn Canadians will have been given fair warning: If your commitment to Canada is passport-thin, you won't get a free trip down the bolt-hole.

>>Source<<

quote:

Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit you should see how people react when they have to wait for the next bus out of wemf.. hahaha

^^ So true, I witnessed it leaving first hand back in 2004 here in Wasaga Beach. I remember leaving past all the busses and stopping then to talk to a friend I saw waiting in line ( a very LONG line) to baord the next one... man....


And, god, what a shitshow this thread has become!!! schei�e

quote:

Originally posted by FunkyGroove whoa! guys relax malek stop biting Lisa's head off, since when do you have to punished for having your own opinion? If anything I would be inclined to belieave a smaller newspaper then bias large cities papers 10-15K tourist? where did that come from? guys get ur stats right also, a fraction of tourists evacuated was very small - most of the Lebanese-Canadian evacuated were working and residing in Lebanon not taking a luxurious vacation

here's my straight facts not some estimate from some newspapers (the one you posted).

Here's a daily press release from Quebec govt. All planes with evacuees are landing in Montreal, and the Quebec govt is taking care of those who need it.

There's no english version, but i'll tell you what the numbers mean:

quote:

Poursuite de l'accueil des ressortissants qu�b�cois - AUGMENTATION DE LA DEMANDE DE SERVICES MONTR�AL, le 25 juillet /CNW Telbec/ - Depuis les deux derniers jours, 1600 ressortissants canadiens en provenance du Moyen-Orient sont arriv�s � l'a�roport Montr�al-Trudeau. Ce chiffre repr�sente le double du nombre de personnes qui sont arriv�es les trois premiers jours de l'op�ration. Uniquement pour la nuit derni�re, 600 ressortissants ont pos� le pied sur le sol qu�b�cois. Pr�s de 40 % de ce nombre ont b�n�fici� des services offerts par le programme d'accueil du gouvernement du Qu�bec, notamment au regard de l'h�bergement. Le programme d'accueil mis en place par le gouvernement du Qu�bec et ses partenaires est ainsi � m�me de r�pondre au volume grandissant de demande de services d'accueil des citoyens en provenance du Liban. Depuis vendredi matin, ce sont 21 avions qui se sont pos�s � Montr�al avec � leur bord 4 686 passagers. De ce nombre, 905 hommes, femmes et enfants ont eu recours aux services de la Croix-Rouge, incluant 309 personnes en transit. Mentionnons que plusieurs minist�res du gouvernement du Qu�bec, la Croix-Rouge ainsi que des organismes communautaires participent � cet effort humanitaire d'importance coordonn� par le minist�re de la S�curit� publique. Enfin, Services Qu�bec rappelle que toute personne d�sireuse d'obtenir de l'information peut le faire en t�l�phonant au num�ro 1 800 363-1363.

Since Friday morning, 21 planes landed with 4686 evacuees. From that number 905 needed shelter from the red cross, and from that group of 905, 309 were in transit to other provinces.

So we have 596 people asking for shelter because they have no home here, presumably because they moved to Lebanon.

It means, 12.7% of those evacuated were living in Lebanon, the vast majority, I once again repeat were Canadians vacationning there and caught in the crossfire.

from that 50k Canadians, about 15k were vacationning. From that 15k, about 5k evacuated with the Canadian govt, the rest are either still waiting for the next boat or ALREADY EVACUATED BY THEIR OWN MEANS thru dangerous and very expensive routes.

and Lisa don't call someone who knows more than you a big head, i only post in threads were i know enough stuff about, i don't base my opininon on a letter sent by some guy who doesn't even remotly represent the majority.

My words may be harsh toward you, but they come nowhere near the opinions and beliefs you hold against the thousands of canadian citizens stranded abroad and who need any help they can get. You think they should be treated as second class citizens and that in itself is the biggest insult.

quote:

Originally posted by malek and Lisa don't call someone who knows more than you a big head, i only post in threads were i know enough stuff about, i don't base my opininon on a letter sent by some guy who doesn't even remotly represent the majority. My words may be harsh toward you, but they come nowhere near the opinions and beliefs you hold against the thousands of canadian citizens stranded abroad and who need any help they can get. You think they should be treated as second class citizens and that in itself is the biggest insult.

For the last time...I made an opinion about the guy who wrote the letter, not EVERY Canadian citizen in Lebanon...thus my opinion is valid. Since you clearly can't see that, there's no point in further arguing with someone who is as dense (to use your terms) and cocky as you. I hope you enjoy putting words in other people's mouths, but not mine. Goodbye.

Very very well said. Ignorant people should refrain from starting topics like these where they can get PWNED by those with even a little bit of background knowledge. Her points were baically a result of accepting what the media presents without any critical thinking (ie. FOX news sheep).

quote:

Originally posted by malek here's my straight facts not some estimate from some newspapers (the one you posted). Here's a daily press release from Quebec govt. All planes with evacuees are landing in Montreal, and the Quebec govt is taking care of those who need it. There's no english version, but i'll tell you what the numbers mean: Since Friday morning, 21 planes landed with 4686 evacuees. From that number 905 needed shelter from the red cross, and from that group of 905, 309 were in transit to other provinces. So we have 596 people asking for shelter because they have no home here, presumably because they moved to Lebanon. It means, 12.7% of those evacuated were living in Lebanon, the vast majority, I once again repeat were Canadians vacationning there and caught in the crossfire. from that 50k Canadians, about 15k were vacationning. From that 15k, about 5k evacuated with the Canadian govt, the rest are either still waiting for the next boat or ALREADY EVACUATED BY THEIR OWN MEANS thru dangerous and very expensive routes. and Lisa don't call someone who knows more than you a big head, i only post in threads were i know enough stuff about, i don't base my opininon on a letter sent by some guy who doesn't even remotly represent the majority. My words may be harsh toward you, but they come nowhere near the opinions and beliefs you hold against the thousands of canadian citizens stranded abroad and who need any help they can get. You think they should be treated as second class citizens and that in itself is the biggest insult.

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* For the last time...I made an opinion about the guy who wrote the letter, not EVERY Canadian citizen in Lebanon...thus my opinion is valid. Since you clearly can't see that, there's no point in further arguing with someone who is as dense (to use your terms) and cocky as you. I hope you enjoy putting words in other people's mouths, but not mine. Goodbye.

of course, and as we read the thread, we realize that this opinion and belief on that retard has spread to all Lebanese stranded and now to every Canadian living abroad in any country with dual loyalties.

great job

quote:

Originally posted by malek myself and others in this thread firmly believe that this complaining thing has been blown out of proportions by the (english) medias because they suck Harper balls who is pro-israeli. The silent majority is grateful.

actually the media has been inflaming the story against harper IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* For the last time...I made an opinion about the guy who wrote the letter, not EVERY Canadian citizen in Lebanon...thus my opinion is valid. Since you clearly can't see that, there's no point in further arguing with someone who is as dense (to use your terms) and cocky as you. I hope you enjoy putting words in other people's mouths, but not mine. Goodbye.

This is your first post, look how you took that man's letter and projected his retarded opinion upon all Lebanese...

You always use the plural referring to the Canadians stranded.

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* It's not Canada's responsibility to get these vacationers out of Lebanon They should be happy that Canada is going in period to get them back safely to their homes...is it truely necessary to have luxurious ships and planes to rescue them?

and you go on and on... please go flip flop somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 actually the media has been inflaming the story against harper IMO.

thats the beauty of having two solitudes in Canada, our intrepretation is that medias are being way too easy on Harper and the english media is continuously spinning this out of proportion, to transfer the blame from an inadequate emergency plan to the Lebanese who are just whiners and should be treated accordingly. Just look at this thread, it reeks of ignorance.

Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard a couple of things to point out here (I could have picked any number of posts to make my points but this one won)..... a) Where these people were born and where they currently reside is inconsequential. What matters is that they are CANADIAN CITIZENS. As I stated earlier, we only have one class of citizen so all must be treated the same. IF CITIZENSHIP IS TO MEAN ANYTHING WE CANNOT QUALIFY IT, A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN IS A CITIZEN, WE ALL HAVE THE SAME LEGAL STANDING. Being as we are a society based on the rule of law there is no negotiating this point. You may be pissed that on ocassion we get taken advantage of by people who become citizens for personal gain but I'll gladly accept that over abandoning the rule of law.

which is why we need to stop dual citizenships of convenience. You are either canadian or you arent. People are obviously abusing our kindness.

quote:

b) Let's be very clear on this.... CANADA IS NOT DOING THESE PEOPLE A FAVOR.... We are not doing a nice thing, we are living up to our duty to our citizens. You may recall the Charter of Rights guarentees a Right to Security of the Person (to all Canadians... not just residents). In order satisfy this section of the Charter the State must take all reasonable and prudent measures to protect the lives of Canadian citizens. What's reasonable and prudent is debatable but I would hazard to guess most courts would find it unreasonable for the government to simply abandon these people.

Canada has no obligation to evacuate ANYONE

taken from the DFAIT website:

quote:

Risks and problems There are also risks and problems associated with having more than one citizenship. Recognition of Canadian citizenship: The most important of these is that your Canadian citizenship may not be recognized in the country of your second citizenship. The authorities of that country may not recognize Canada's right to provide you with consular assistance. There could also be problems in other countries, especially if you used the travel document of the country of your second citizenship to gain entry. In such circumstances, the local authorities could decide that Canada does not have the right to provide consular assistance.

I wonder how many of those dual "canadians" used their canadian passport to get into lebanon? Im suspecting not very many.

Also here is a hypothetical situation from the canadian consular services website:

quote:

Ren�e is visiting an archeological site near Lima, Peru, when a civil war breaks out. She calls the Canadian Embassy in Lima to find out if they can help her leave the country. A consular official tells her that they can assist her but that she will have to sign a document stating she will repay the costs of her evacuation. That night, she and other Canadians gather at a hotel. They are then escorted to a military airport and flown to Ecuador, the nearest safe location. They are all informed that the Embassy does not pay for any costs associated with their evacuation to Ecuador

Id say those whiners got off pretty lucky. Because it's USUALLY canada's policy to make evacuees PAY for their evacuation. What do you harper bashers have to say now?

quote:

Originally posted by sticky_shoes Still convinced that Harper's trip to save the Canadians was ALSO intended to be a publicity stunt...

and had he just gone home from russia in the jet all by himself he would have been critisized for flying home on a jet that could have been used to send home evacuees.

The guy cant win either way can he?

quote:

Originally posted by malek please go flip flop somewhere else.

It's my thread...if you don't like what's going on it it...why don't you leave.

quote:

Originally posted by malek here's my straight facts not some estimate from some newspapers (the one you posted). Here's a daily press release from Quebec govt. All planes with evacuees are landing in Montreal, and the Quebec govt is taking care of those who need it. There's no english version, but i'll tell you what the numbers mean: Since Friday morning, 21 planes landed with 4686 evacuees. From that number 905 needed shelter from the red cross, and from that group of 905, 309 were in transit to other provinces. So we have 596 people asking for shelter because they have no home here, presumably because they moved to Lebanon. It means, 12.7% of those evacuated were living in Lebanon, the vast majority, I once again repeat were Canadians vacationning there and caught in the crossfire. from that 50k Canadians, about 15k were vacationning. From that 15k, about 5k evacuated with the Canadian govt, the rest are either still waiting for the next boat or ALREADY EVACUATED BY THEIR OWN MEANS thru dangerous and very expensive routes. and Lisa don't call someone who knows more than you a big head, i only post in threads were i know enough stuff about, i don't base my opininon on a letter sent by some guy who doesn't even remotly represent the majority. My words may be harsh toward you, but they come nowhere near the opinions and beliefs you hold against the thousands of canadian citizens stranded abroad and who need any help they can get. You think they should be treated as second class citizens and that in itself is the biggest insult.

But how many more are staying with relatives or friends and dont need shelter?

Statistics are like the bible....its not what's in it so much as the interpretation.

quote:

Originally posted by malek of course, and as we read the thread, we realize that this opinion and belief on that retard has spread to all Lebanese stranded and now to every Canadian living abroad in any country with dual loyalties. great job

ive always felt that people living abroad do so at their own risk.

And im a frequent traveller!

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* why don't you leave.

ooh a bold word. if I don't will you call your bf again?

quote:

Originally posted by malek ooh a bold word. if I don't will you call your bf again?

yes....CAAAALLLLEEE!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Canada has no obligation to evacuate ANYONE taken from the DFAIT website:

hmm, where does it say Canada has no obligation to evacuate its citizens? That paragraph you posted only talks about the known issues of dual citizenship in some countries. Other countries may no recognize you as Canadian but what does it have to do with Canada having obligation or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 But how many more are staying with relatives or friends and dont need shelter? Statistics are like the bible....its not what's in it so much as the interpretation.

yes and you are right, and I'm sure it would change the ratios a bit but not in the proportions the medias are "estimating".

Just to give you an idea, the Quebec immigration minister was interviewed yesterday and she was very clear that the overwhelming majority were just vacationning abroad.

I wonder where was the National Post when she gave those informations.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 ive always felt that people living abroad do so at their own risk.

precisely

so what the hell are those tourists thinking going over to a war zone, hm?

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