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-- Do you believe in Fate?
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quote:

Originally posted by RJT I had begun to type out a response last night but have far more important things to deal with than refuting a poorly written, bastardized interpretation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, namely school. At the end of the day, anyone who reads the utter drivel you posted and can't see the utter lack of any academic credibility is a fool. Beyond that, in the end, this is really just a debate for fools.

and this thread so far has been a clash of intellectual titans?!

you took it waaay too seriously. i never claimed the article to be the be all end all to any argument. rather it did drive up an interesting point, IMO. sorry for trying to bring something to the thread, which, retarded as you may claim it to be, is a lot better than arguing about english and calling eachother stupid over stuff about fate. geez.

quote:

Originally posted by Inertia and this thread so far has been a clash of intellectual titans?! you took it waaay too seriously. i never claimed the article to be the be all end all to any argument. rather it did drive up an interesting point, IMO. sorry for trying to bring something to the thread, which, retarded as you may claim it to be, is a lot better than arguing about english and calling eachother stupid over stuff about fate. geez.

Point me to where I'm arguing about English? And pointing out the irrational nature of debating fate seems a far sight better than using pseudo-intellectual internet rubbish to posit a counterpoint.

And with regard to me taking this too seriously, if anything, I'd say I haven't taken a thing in this thread seriously. In fact, not only have I openly mocked those taking part in this debate who seem to think they'll ever arrive at a conclusive answer, but I've also made a concious decision that pursuing some sort of conclusive refutation of the rubbish you posted would be an utter waste of my time.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Point me to where I'm arguing about English? And pointing out the irrational nature of debating fate seems a far sight better than using pseudo-intellectual internet rubbish to posit a counterpoint. And with regard to me taking this too seriously, if anything, I'd say I haven't taken a thing in this thread seriously. In fact, not only have I openly mocked those taking part in this debate who seem to think they'll ever arrive at a conclusive answer, but I've also made a concious decision that pursuing some sort of conclusive refutation of the rubbish you posted would be an utter waste of my time.

emm. i never said you were arguing about english. i said the thread might be better if instead of THEM agruing, i could apparently learn something from you. i will bother you no more. but fine, you seem to be way too caught up... whatever it is you are caught up in for that to happen. ah well.

how's this for "coincidence"......

this morning, i left to go to class...knowing that i wouldn't be home until late, i brought my laptop with me.

my roomate also had $500 cash, in which she decided today was the day to bring it to the bank to deposit.

our apartment was robbed today. they took any cash we had here (which wasn't much), stole my roomate's laptop, and took my digital camera. yeah it fucking SUCKS, but we both did things today that we regularly don't do (i.e. deposit cash and lug around a laptop all day).

explain.

how's this for "coincidence"......

this morning, i left to go to class...knowing that i wouldn't be home until late, i brought my laptop with me.

my roomate also had $500 cash, in which she decided today was the day to bring it to the bank to deposit.

our apartment was robbed today. they took any cash we had here (which wasn't much), stole my roomate's laptop, and took my digital camera. yeah it fucking SUCKS, but we both did things today that we regularly don't do (i.e. deposit cash and lug around a laptop all day) but there was some reason as to why we both, personally, felt the need to do these things today, out of any other day.

explain.

vermont transit is costing me alot of $$$ lately and i needed the money

quote:

Originally posted by Caela how's this for "coincidence"...... this morning, i left to go to class...knowing that i wouldn't be home until late, i brought my laptop with me. my roomate also had $500 cash, in which she decided today was the day to bring it to the bank to deposit. our apartment was robbed today. they took any cash we had here (which wasn't much), stole my roomate's laptop, and took my digital camera. yeah it fucking SUCKS, but we both did things today that we regularly don't do (i.e. deposit cash and lug around a laptop all day). explain.

It's called coincidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Caela explain.

chance.



things happen all the time and the frequency of their occurance varies. Everyone performs combinations of odd behavior everyday but it is never noticed or remembered becuase some strange occurance is not tied to it. so it just so happened that the string of odd behavior you performed today aided you in having less stolen from you, which is fortunate.

You roommate got their laptop stolen, your digital camera, and cash. I really don't see whats so extraordinary.

quote:

Originally posted by Caela how's this for "coincidence"...... this morning, i left to go to class...knowing that i wouldn't be home until late, i brought my laptop with me. my roomate also had $500 cash, in which she decided today was the day to bring it to the bank to deposit. our apartment was robbed today. they took any cash we had here (which wasn't much), stole my roomate's laptop, and took my digital camera. yeah it fucking SUCKS, but we both did things today that we regularly don't do (i.e. deposit cash and lug around a laptop all day) but there was some reason as to why we both, personally, felt the need to do these things today, out of any other day. explain.

wow. i've changed my tune completely now. clearly the karmic god's of fate have chosen today to reveal your destiny and help you out by having people rob your house. i stand completely corrected.

isn't it depressing knowing that fate does not exist?

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 isn't it depressing knowing that fate does not exist?

no?

It makes me even more enthralled knowing that I have control over my future.

quote:

Originally posted by Caela how's this for "coincidence"...... this morning, i left to go to class...knowing that i wouldn't be home until late, i brought my laptop with me. my roomate also had $500 cash, in which she decided today was the day to bring it to the bank to deposit. our apartment was robbed today. they took any cash we had here (which wasn't much), stole my roomate's laptop, and took my digital camera. yeah it fucking SUCKS, but we both did things today that we regularly don't do (i.e. deposit cash and lug around a laptop all day) but there was some reason as to why we both, personally, felt the need to do these things today, out of any other day. explain.

and the other day, i was thinking how good that ham was that my mom bought once. and i was hungry. i wanted a sandwich with that ham. sucked there was no ham in the house. so i went downstairs, to get something to eat. and i opened the fridge to get a glass of OJ while i made some ramen. and zOMG, my mom, who got home and hour before, brought in some of that leet ham.

someone explain.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail no? It makes me even more enthralled knowing that I have control over my future.

taken in the same stride (<-- I don't know what that means) it would also mean that others have the same control over you. someone can ruin your future very easily, its all due to chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Inertia and the other day, i was thinking how good that ham was that my mom bought once. and i was hungry. i wanted a sandwich with that ham. sucked there was no ham in the house. so i went downstairs, to get something to eat. and i opened the fridge to get a glass of OJ while i made some ramen. and zOMG, my mom, who got home and hour before, brought in some of that leet ham. someone explain.

That reminds me of a story, except in mine the ham wasn't there.

SOMEONE EXPLAIN!

quote:

taken in the same stride (<-- I don't know what that means) it would also mean that others have the same control over you. someone can ruin your future very easily, its all due to chance.

which is even cooler because I can ruin others' futures as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail which is even cooler because I can ruin others' futures as well.

alwyas thinking positive, thats what I like about you.

quote:

Originally posted by Inertia and the other day, i was thinking how good that ham was that my mom bought once. and i was hungry. i wanted a sandwich with that ham. sucked there was no ham in the house. so i went downstairs, to get something to eat. and i opened the fridge to get a glass of OJ while i made some ramen. and zOMG, my mom, who got home and hour before, brought in some of that leet ham. someone explain.

that was god's will

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail That reminds me of a story, except in mine the ham wasn't there. SOMEONE EXPLAIN!

god said you were too fat for ham, so he ate it all before you could.

Re: Do you believe in Fate?

quote:

Originally posted by eFeKz or do you believe you're in control of your own destiny? acknowledging fate indicates a belief in something above yourself, a god or deity(s) if you will. i do not believe our lives have a pre-game plan put forward for us at birth but rather that we are in control of our own destiny. maybe it is a little bit of both. your thoughts.

What you perceive as reality is as deterministic or as entropic as you are. That is because the scope of the process of making a choice itself does not extend beyond oneself as a modular phenomenon.

Ironically, this means that many of both those who espouse belief in fate and those who deny it are, in a very general sense, correct as it pertains to themselves - despite the fact that the reasoning by which they have reached their conclusion is faulty in effectively every case.

It ought to be quite evident that the degree of volitional constraint upon the consciousness varies from one sentient biological organism to the next. The more neurophenomenologically pertinent question would be whether or not this variable remains constant for a single consciousness-phenomenon in relation to time (as that phenomenon experiences it), and, if the answer is no (as a cursory examination would suggest) then what phenomena govern those changes and how do they behave?

Re: Re: Do you believe in Fate?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter What you perceive as reality is as deterministic or as entropic as you are. That is because the scope of the process of making a choice itself does not extend beyond oneself as a modular phenomenon. Ironically, this means that many of both those who espouse belief in fate and those who deny it are, in a very general sense, correct as it pertains to themselves - despite the fact that the reasoning by which they have reached their conclusion is faulty in effectively every case. It ought to be quite evident that the degree of volitional constraint upon the consciousness varies from one sentient biological organism to the next. The more neurophenomenologically pertinent question would be whether or not this variable remains constant for a single consciousness-phenomenon in relation to time (as that phenomenon experiences it), and, if the answer is no (as a cursory examination would suggest) then what phenomena govern those changes and how do they behave?

So if I may redact your argument to more simplistic terms I gather that you ultimately believe that our decisions are deterministic at a certain fundametal level? Those who believe in fate have a greater "predisposition" to make the choices that coincide with their pre-conceptions of the path that fate has "laid" out for them, and thus they accomplish the self-fulfilling prophecy. On the converse, those who refuse to believe in fate are fundamentally volatile and thus achieve their own self-fulfilling prophecy of making volatile decisions that coincide with their own "predispositions" as well. Thus the determinists are fundementally "deterministic as they are" while the entropics are fundamentally "entropic as they are"?

My interpretation of your post was that your third paragraph was incongruent with your first two. In your first two paragraphs you lay the groundwork for what may ultimately be considered as deterministic behaviour as every choice can ultimately be reduced to "modular phenomenan" ... thus the determinists and entropics are ultimately indistinguishable. In your third paragraph, you seem to indicate that there is some level of variability that is contradictive to the entire deterministic argument altogether. Are you advocating that determinism is ultimately your proposed end state whilst the complexity and mechanics of the variability have yet to be worked out or understood?

quote:

Originally posted by all-nite-freak vermont transit is costing me alot of $$$ lately and i needed the money

Fate is bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers That's what makes the world a colorful place. I don't care if there are 'idiots' in here, or in the real world. I have plenty of friends and coworkers that stimulate my mind so much, that I am satisfied at the end of the day. I hang out with some 'idiots' who have been my friends for almost my whole life. When I was 6, I didn't care how smart they were, and I sure as hell don't now because we all respect each other.

haha reminds me of a good farside comic where "god" is making the world. he's like dumping a bunch of stuff onto this globe or something and you see jars that are labeled, "men" "women" "homeless" or something like that. and then you see him dumping in the jar called "jerks" and he's saying, "and just to make it interesting"



anyway, i am in charge of my own destiny. that's pretty much what it boils down to in my world. there might be situations that come at me along the way that are out of my control, but how i react to those situations and come out in the end is still completely within my conrol.

i can see why people like to believe in fate and destiny though. it's fun. dont get me wrong, i have a little hopeless romantic side to me, but i don't really like the idea of thinking that my life and things that happen to me aren't within my control. that's just ridiculous actually.

Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Fate?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider So if I may redact your argument to more simplistic terms I gather that you ultimately believe that our decisions are deterministic at a certain fundametal level? Those who believe in fate have a greater "predisposition" to make the choices that coincide with their pre-conceptions of the path that fate has "laid" out for them, and thus they accomplish the self-fulfilling prophecy. On the converse, those who refuse to believe in fate are fundamentally volatile and thus achieve their own self-fulfilling prophecy of making volatile decisions that coincide with their own "predispositions" as well. Thus the determinists are fundementally "deterministic as they are" while the entropics are fundamentally "entropic as they are"? My interpretation of your post was that your third paragraph was incongruent with your first two. In your first two paragraphs you lay the groundwork for what may ultimately be considered as deterministic behaviour as every choice can ultimately be reduced to "modular phenomenan" ... thus the determinists and entropics are ultimately indistinguishable. In your third paragraph, you seem to indicate that there is some level of variability that is contradictive to the entire deterministic argument altogether. Are you advocating that determinism is ultimately your proposed end state whilst the complexity and mechanics of the variability have yet to be worked out or understood?

No, I seem to have left the wrong impression. The problem with this issue is that consciousness itself is a composite (or modular) phenomenon which is the result of the interaction of lower-level phenomena, of which many are themselves composite phenomena... and so forth. Not only that, but consciousness cannot be examined in a vacuum, so we must consider the influence which external phenomena might have upon its behavior.

The various phenomena which ultimately comprise the consciousness are not identical in structure or behavior between all consciousnesses. Of these constituent phenomena, some are deterministic and some are not. Since the consciousness-phenomenon is partially comprised of non-deterministic phenomena, it would be wrong to say that it is determinsitic in an absolute sense.

Among those who claim to believe in fate, I think it is a very small minority that actually believe in this sort of absolute determinism anyway. What most of them actually believe in is the existence of certain "inevitabilities" within their reality.

Even when a function is contains non-deterministic elements, it may produce markedly biased output as a result of the deterministic elements within it. It is the same for consciousness-phenomena. Although the choices that are made are not deterministic, they may be markedly biased in some cases - and in such a situation, certain outcomes may become inevitable, or at least exceedingly probable.

Such outcomes, it could be argued, are "fated" - to those who will experience them. But this does not mean that the phenomenon itself is deterministic.

Now, the perception that people may have of their condition could be quite different. But those who believe in "fate" are correct and those who believe they are in control of their own actions are correct. The two conditions aren't mutually exclusive, but to those who believe they are, their perception of fate or the lack thereof partially governs the course that their consciousnesses as phenoemna will take through the paths available to them in a manner that is as determinstic or non-deterministic as they believe it will be.

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