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-- Ahmadinejad to speak at the Columbia University
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Originally posted by CHRles You mean the same UN where Iran is on an anti racism committee?

Believe me, I've got my gripes with the UN as well. You've touched on a big one I share.

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Rest assured that when the president of the US spoke a lot of countries listened, and all of the developed/western countries were present and taking notes. His words will have an effect on the direction the UN will take.

Did anyone else notice that no one clapped when Bush was finished?

By the way, I won't compare that nutbag's denial of homosexuals existing in his country to our own country. But I do think it's worth pointing out that we're not entirely innocent and loving to the sexual preference of those consenting adults in our own country. Keep in mind what the formal position Texas Republican Party:

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Homosexuality - We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country�s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable �alternative� lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should �family� be redefined to include homosexual �couples.� We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values. Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy. http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/Platform_Updated.pdf?docID=2001

Not exactly angels in our own right.......

This country definitely has its flaws, the US is far from perfect.
I have a friend whose gay. I seriously doubt he'd ever consider living in Iran, and I bet he chuckled at the notion that Iran doesn't have a gay "problem" like the west does.
Texas itself surely has large gay populations in Austin, Houston, and Dallas, and I don't recall reading any articles of there being injustice towards gays in that state (though I may be wrong).

The US is also far from perfect when it comes to poverty and education, but poverty isnt as widespread here as it is in Iran, the unemployment rate here is far lower then Iran, our education system is much more accomodating to students then Iran's, and the US really does try to come up with solutions to its problems rather then blame the rest of the world for it. We don't blame other countries for their success and our failures.
You don't see America blaming Finland for having a better educated population, you don't see America blaming Japan for having harder workers, and you dont see America lashing out at Germany for having a female leader in politics.

You know, one of my favorite shows to watch is Boston Legal. It's an extremely liberal, left tilted show, and it does an amazing job of exposing the viewing audience to all the problems this nation is currently facing.
How many shows does Iran have like that?

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Originally posted by CHRles This country definitely has its flaws, the US is far from perfect. I have a friend whose gay. I seriously doubt he'd ever consider living in Iran, and I bet he chuckled at the notion that Iran doesn't have a gay "problem" like the west does. Texas itself surely has large gay populations in Austin, Houston, and Dallas, and I don't recall reading any articles of there being injustice towards gays in that state (though I may be wrong). The US is also far from perfect when it comes to poverty and education, but poverty isnt as widespread here as it is in Iran, the unemployment rate here is far lower then Iran, our education system is much more accomodating to students then Iran's, and the US really does try to come up with solutions to its problems rather then blame the rest of the world for it. We don't blame other countries for their success and our failures. You don't see America blaming Finland for having a better educated population, you don't see America blaming Japan for having harder workers, and you dont see America lashing out at Germany for having a female leader in politics. You know, one of my favorite shows to watch is Boston Legal. It's an extremely liberal, left tilted show, and it does an amazing job of exposing the viewing audience to all the problems this nation is currently facing. How many shows does Iran have like that?

I hear ya, and agree completely. Again there's no good comparison between our country versus Iran on all these aforementioned factors. My point is that if we are going to be a moral compass on any given issue and point the finger at someone for abuses, it's inherent for that compass to be working correctly without flaws. Can we ask other countries to strive for better goals? Of course. But it certainly helps for us to set the moral bar as high as possible, to which I'd contend the Texas GOP (home of Bush, Delay, etc.) has a ways to go in their own right.

I mean cant people possibly learn from history. Just a hint, before anyone posts anything please do your research.

Addressing the issue of US aide. Okay, Iran gives aid to Hamas and Syria to disrupt order in Israel. Clearly Iran is an ally of Hamas and Syria, this is basically a partnership going on with one objective: to destroy Israel. So if the allies of hamas and Syria come into play why cant the US come to aid Israel? There is no sense in that! These are a group of people that dont only have hatred towards Israel but towards the West as a whole.

Okay, I mean if the US launches an attack on Iran, it wont be an invasion or anything similar. What I do believe is that we are going to aim at specific targets to disrupt their nuclear program. I dont see this happening with this admin, this is something that is going to be dealt with our next president.

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Originally posted by CHRles This country definitely has its flaws, the US is far from perfect. I have a friend whose gay. I seriously doubt he'd ever consider living in Iran, and I bet he chuckled at the notion that Iran doesn't have a gay "problem" like the west does. Texas itself surely has large gay populations in Austin, Houston, and Dallas, and I don't recall reading any articles of there being injustice towards gays in that state (though I may be wrong).

You don't think that gays in TEXAS (of ALL places) are discriminated against?!

Wow, holy living-in-a-bubble.

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Originally posted by LatinLover Okay, I mean if the US launches an attack on Iran, it wont be an invasion or anything similar. What I do believe is that we are going to aim at specific targets to disrupt their nuclear program.

and what do you think will happen next exactly?Iran will fight back and here we go again with yet anther war in the region.Anyone who think by attackin "specific targets" will have a good ending they really should think again.

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Originally posted by LatinLover I mean cant people possibly learn from history. Just a hint, before anyone posts anything please do your research.

The irony of the source of this statement is as thick as molasses.

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Addressing the issue of US aide. Okay, Iran gives aid to Hamas and Syria to disrupt order in Israel. Clearly Iran is an ally of Hamas and Syria, this is basically a partnership going on with one objective: to destroy Israel. So if the allies of hamas and Syria come into play why cant the US come to aid Israel?

Hmmm, I guess we should ignore headlines like this then:

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Israel to Get $30 Billion in Military Aid From U.S. By STEVEN ERLANGER Published: August 17, 2007 JERUSALEM, Aug. 16 � Israel and the United States signed a deal on Thursday to give Israel $30 billion in military aid over the next decade in what officials called a long-term investment in peace. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/w...r=1&oref=slogin

But not that kind of "aid", huh?

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There is no sense in that! These are a group of people that dont only have hatred towards Israel but towards the West as a whole.

And why is that, do you think? Have you considered asking why they hate us? And please spare us the "hate our democracy" line while you're at it.

On what grounds do you conceivably argue that Hamas or Hezbollah are direct threats to the United States itself? What actions has Iran engaged in that poses a direct threat to our country that would entail a full-scale war or even a strategic bombing of sorts? Considering that intelligence reports to 8-10 years of Iran even coming close to having a nuke, and considering that in all likelihood Israel would immediately bomb the fuck out of them if they got whiff of Iran successfully obtaining a "nukular" weapon, what grounds do we even begin to consider Iran being a threat to the U.S. itself? Again, last I checked Israel is more than capable of handling its own matters quite well considering how well armed and trained they've been for decades.

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Okay, I mean if the US launches an attack on Iran, it wont be an invasion or anything similar.

Because you've seen the plans already? My, you sure have some high level clearance on strategic intelligence. Care to support those assertions with evidence? Or is it too hush-hush for our ears to hear?

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What I do believe is that we are going to aim at specific targets to disrupt their nuclear program. I dont see this happening with this admin, this is something that is going to be dealt with our next president.

And your evidence of the next president deciding this is, what again?

I'm curious, if we are to go with your hypothetical and state that we and/or Israel bombs Iran at strategic sites, what do you think will happen then? Let's weigh some future hypothetical answers to your hypothetical situation:

1. They'll thank us ever-so graciously for keeping them in line and promise never to do it again

2. They'll retaliate, either via stronger involvement militarily with their allied Shiite government in Iraq or against Israel itself.

Now, which of those two hypotheticals appear more plausible? Even if #2 isn't a better option for you, just consider the question if that happens - what the hell do we do then?

Ding! Ding! Ding! That's right, champ, your neocon buddies have just launched us into yet another full-scale war! Nevermind that we're already bogged down to shit next door in Iraq with an incredibly overstretched voluntary military. We're gonna tell those men and women in our military to keep fighting for yet more tours and more everlasting wars?

So just how do you suppose we fight this war should Iran retaliate in force either in Iraq or towards Israel? Or is that what you're actually wanting in the first place? Haven't you freakin' war drummers had enough of the bungling situation we're currently involved in with Iraq, or do you want to continue repeating fucked up situations like that one after the other?

And finally, how old are you? You seem to be very much in support of these wars we continue to create in the Middle East. Why haven't you enlisted yourself to fight for the cause you fervently support? God knows if we go to war in Iran, we're gonna need all the help we can get! Lord knows we don't need any more Yellow Republican war supporters on our hands. Grab a gun, sir, and start fightin' for the cause you truly support.

Just for the record since people seem to have interest in me. Im a 19 year old that loves and is patriotic to this beautiful nation and that cherishes and protects the rights endowed by the founding fathers of this great nation called America.

Sorry Misteropus w.e I didnt fully read your post above because from the get go I didnt find it informative or something worthwhile to read and analyze. I will though talk about some of the things you asked....

Why is there hatred towards the US? Omg the fact that this nation is an ally of Israel is not the only reason you know... its not the major reason. Why is there so much hatred towards the US? Because these nations spread and promotes negative propaganda of Israel and the West. I mean kids are indoctrinated to have these sentiments towards us and Israel since they are kids. These things are promoted on kid shows, on schools and so on...

I mean if you think that the US shouldnt get involve when Hez and Israel go at each other you must be fucking nuts. No not only we provide weapons but we open diplomacy up to solve these issues. In the Hez and Israel conflict, who was the one that renegotiated a cease of fire? Exactly, Dr. Rice. If the US wouldnt have stepped in they would have still be fighting to this day. Atleast, when we step in we are a positive force and not a negative one, like Iran and that constantly promotes instability in the region.

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Originally posted by LatinLover Why is there so much hatred towards the US? Because these nations spread and promotes negative propaganda of Israel and the West. I mean kids are indoctrinated to have these sentiments towards us and Israel since they are kids. These things are promoted on kid shows, on schools and so on...

are you kidding me? like the US (or any other government really) doesn't indoctrinate its populace? like the mid east don't have legitimate complaints against either israel or the US? the US might not be the great satan as its critics contend, but don't portray either the US or israel as some kind of innocent bystander.

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posted by opusAnd why is that, do you think? Have you considered asking why they hate us? And please spare us the "hate our democracy" line while you're at it.

I've been saying this for a while!! Look at Q5echo's sig...

The reason why they hate us is because of western interference in muslim lands. Thus, islamic terrorism is a product of the west's own making. Who supported Osama in the 1980's, who oppressed the Iranian people in 1970's, who support Saddam in the 1980's, who uprooted millions of Palestinians from their land? THE WEST!!

I'm waiting for the next "u hate america" comment to come next..

What I want is for the west to respect national sovereignty.

I want what George Washington stated in his "Farewell Speech".

1. A united America not divided by political factionalism.
2. The rule of law.
3. NO ENTANGLING PERMANENT ALLIANCES


Bush does not follow the rule of law. He bypassed the UN to go to war with Iraq. We are in entangling alliances.

Polarization has gripped this country, and I even say purposefully.

"In communications and psychology, polarization is the process whereby a social or political group is divided into two opposing sub-groups with fewer and fewer members of the group remaining neutral or holding an intermediate position.

When polarization occurs, there is a tendency for the opposing sides of an argument to make increasingly disagreeable statements, via the "pendulum effect". Thus, it is commonly observed in polarized groups, that judgments made after group discussion will be more extreme on a given subject than the average of individual judgments made prior to discussion.

Also called 'group polarization'; used to be called the 'risky shift phenomenon', with particular reference to jury decision-making."

Bush did not bypass any laws, our congress approved the war in Iraq.

What the problem here is that US policy has backfired in the ME. As I stated sometime ago before I got banned. I like to give a brief comparison on Latin American and ME policy.

For years the US has supported leaders that in somehow the US saw beneficial for their own interest and the region. But what happened? These leaders repressed their own people. So that lead, to many citizens in these countries to hate the US. Because they felt it was some type of double morale. Here you have the US, a nation that claims they promote and want peace, progress and so on.. and they are supporting these leaders.

For years the US has been having this double morale policy. Now here is the breaking point. With this Admin they have realized that this dosent solve anything. In the short run yes, but in the long run it turns disastrous. So what are we doing? We are acting upon our true principles... If you dont respect human rights, peace and so on... we will sanction you and isolate you. this was shown with the whole NK crisis. NK actually thought that we were going to to have a soft policy like clinton did in the past ( it backfired also) we made it clear to them to disarm w.e they had or we will continued with the harsh sanctions and at the end thank god it worked.

So this is the face that the US is facing Iran with. We will not compromise with a govt that violates human rights and that hold this flawed ideology. We have made it clear to them that we are acting up on our principles, we want a solution that dosent only work on the short term but also in the long run. a solution that can benefit the Iranian people and the rest of the world. Has Iran demonstrated that they want the best for their people and the rest of the world? Has Iran demonstrated they want to achieve this objective?

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Originally posted by LatinLover Just for the record since people seem to have interest in me. Im a 19 year old that loves and is patriotic to this beautiful nation and that cherishes and protects the rights endowed by the founding fathers of this great nation called America.

And yet you feel that "patriotism" isn't strong enough to compel you to fight for the cause you so ardently support?

Why not?

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Sorry Misteropus w.e I didnt fully read your post above because from the get go I didnt find it informative or something worthwhile to read and analyze.

Hmmm, now where have I heard you incessantly dodge my posts before?

Hmmmm....:

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Dont think Im dodging your questions. Is that no offense I fucking feel stupid reading the shit you write and the articles you show off. May-14-2007 23:20 http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=2

and

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come on do you think that I have time to read an essay about how americans are sick and tired about this war, another essay on what the polls show, another essay on how ex military officials feel May-14-2007 23:24 http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=416559

and

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To read the opinions and analysis of other members and hoping to engage in a worth while debate with intelligent people but that hasnt happened because some people all they do is go to CNN.com or w.e have you and quote some shit up from someone and just use that as evidence. I was more hoping to meet an intellectual that can have common sense but more importantly ENTERTAIN his own analysis of world events etc.. Its like I say... Why would I bother to debate with people that cant do that, it makes me feel dumber. I am still awaiting to meet that member here but it seems is not going to happen.... May-15-2007 01:01 http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=416559

and

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As I said when you show intelligence ill debate you more seriously. Right now you are not even worthy the time to google my shit up and present the "evidence" you want. Im getting to the point that i feel tired in responding to you so im going to leave this post as it is now cause i dont want to keep typing anymore to stupid shit May-15-2007 19:06 http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=2

Something tells me that history for you is doomed to repeat itself. I doubt Neo will look too kindly on your antics of willful ignorance to debate, and I think it would do you credit to pay heed to what Lira warned you about in the past:

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lira Something must be missing... ... your sources, perhaps? Oh, no, that's true, an independent thinker has to come up with utterly original material, without any theoretical or historical basis. --- Listen, either come up with something interesting, or stop provoking everyone else around you for no reason. Otherwise, you'll contribute as much as you're contributing now - and you're going to do that without your posting privileges! Now that would be revolutionary This will be your first and last chance you pull this bullshit

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I will though talk about some of the things you asked....

Funny, I thought you were ignoring me?

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Why is there hatred towards the US? Omg the fact that this nation is an ally of Israel is not the only reason you know... its not the major reason. Why is there so much hatred towards the US? Because these nations spread and promotes negative propaganda of Israel and the West.

And why do you think such propaganda is being spread in the first place?

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I mean kids are indoctrinated to have these sentiments towards us and Israel since they are kids. These things are promoted on kid shows, on schools and so on...

And why is such propaganda being spread and promoted in the first place?

Furthermore, what is the best and most intelligent answer to combating such propaganda? Is it:

1. "strategic bombing"?
2. Diplomatic, economic, global pressure on governments that sponsor such propaganda?

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I mean if you think that the US shouldnt get involve when Hez and Israel go at each other you must be fucking nuts.

You realize you just called the majority of Americans, the majority of the world, and the majority of the American Jewish culture "fucking nuts", right?

And in the voice of Lira, what evidence do you have to counter my assertions that I gave you with evidence and links to support them?

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No not only we provide weapons but we open diplomacy up to solve these issues.

Ummm, am I suppose to disagree with this? I agree completely with this statement. What the hell are you arguing again? What do you think my position was again?

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In the Hez and Israel conflict, who was the one that renegotiated a cease of fire? Exactly, Dr. Rice.

Umm, that wasn't the answer I was gonna give, but I'll go with that for now, champ. Yes, Rice helped out, considering she is the Secretary of State and it's her job as our country's leading diplomat, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Regardless, she had to jump in because up until that point the Bush Administration had a "hands off approach" with the situation:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115...=googlenews_wsj

and "giving a tacit blessing" to the escalating violence:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/w...ew/23worth.html

Which was slowly blowing up in their faces as well as Israels.

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If the US wouldnt have stepped in they would have still be fighting to this day.

And your evidence supporting the assertion that it was all entirely because of Condi is, where again?

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Atleast, when we step in we are a positive force and not a negative one, like Iran and that constantly promotes instability in the region.

Hmmm, so I guess by your logic then, our stepping into Iraq has also created instability, right?

Or does that not apply to us but to everyone else instead?

Bush had domestic approval. The UN Security council on the other did not approve the invasion. Therefore, the president did not have international support for an invasion, and in fact millions of people around the globe came out in protest, including governments. If this war was so noble, there would have been fewer protests, UN Security Council approval, and the coalition would have had much more participation by other countrys. Instead, the bulk of the coalition was basically UK/USA. The rule of law includes respect for international sovereignty, and respect for the decisions of the globe as a whole. This, Bush chose to invade unilaterally against the wishes of the world...

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Originally posted by LatinLover For years the US has been having this double morale policy. Now here is the breaking point. With this Admin they have realized that this dosent solve anything. In the short run yes, but in the long run it turns disastrous. So what are we doing? We are acting upon our true principles... If you dont respect human rights, peace and so on... we will sanction you and isolate you.

....and violate your human rights, lock you up, torture the fuck out of you, ship you off to unknown undisclosed locations and torture the fuck out of you, ship you off in secret renditions to other countries so they can torture the fuck out of you, call those tortured innocent victims "terrorists" and "enemy combatants" and then let them go because we had no evidence to support those assertions, and then point our hypocritical fingers at everyone else and say they have no right to do what we do........

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this was shown with the whole NK crisis. NK actually thought that we were going to to have a soft policy like clinton did in the past ( it backfired also) we made it clear to them to disarm w.e they had or we will continued with the harsh sanctions and at the end thank god it worked.

What is "w.e"? I see this in every post of yours. Does it stand for something? Is it Latin?

Piglatin?

What the hell is it?

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So this is the face that the US is facing Iran with. We will not compromise with a govt that violates human rights and that hold this flawed ideology.

Hold it tightly as if it were our own....

wait.....dammit!

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We have made it clear to them that we are acting up on our principles,

1. Principle I: Don't torture unless you are under the American government.

2. Principle II: See Principle I.

3. Principle III: When in doubt, INVADE, DAMMIT!!!! INVADE!!!!!

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we want a solution that dosent only work on the short term but also in the long run. a solution that can benefit the Iranian people and the rest of the world.

1. Solution I to benefit the Iranians: blow them the fuck up.

2. Solution II to benefit the Iranians: Solution I takes care of Solution II, so fuck off.

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Has Iran demonstrated that they want the best for their people and the rest of the world?

Has any country reached this lofty goal of yours?

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Has Iran demonstrated they want to achieve this objective?

Has any country demonstrated this objective? Granted, Iran is an extremist version of most other countries, but give me a country that has demonstrated these lofty goals and objectives without having their own corruption and politics getting in the way and then point me in that direction to La La Land, please.

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Originally posted by LatinLover To read the opinions and analysis of other members and hoping to engage in a worth while debate with intelligent people but that hasnt happened because some people all they do is go to CNN.com or w.e have you and quote some shit up from someone and just use that as evidence. I was more hoping to meet an intellectual that can have common sense but more importantly ENTERTAIN his own analysis of world events etc.. Its like I say... Why would I bother to debate with people that cant do that, it makes me feel dumber. I am still awaiting to meet that member here but it seems is not going to happen....

lol. are you kidding me? do you know how "intellectual" debate (in written form) works?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol. are you kidding me? do you know how "intellectual" debate (in written form) works?

Looks like opinions with no credible evidence is the way to debate? According to Latin that is..

LatinLover, I'm curious: what do you think the mandate of the US Dept. of State is? Surely you don't think their only role is to talk with the countries out there that agree with us?

State is the first line of Defense against security threats - by directly engaging with them rather than isolating and ostracizing them, there is a chance of resolving conflict before it escalates into death and widespread suffering. That's why State was created in the first place.

There is a mechanism to deal with international disputes, and by leaping from Point A to Point Z (nuking them), we are not only invalidating the very system we are supposedly protecting, but we are also playing fast and loose with potentially thousands of lives.

I mean who is talking about invading Iran? We shouldn disregard it but it should be the last option in the play book.

Misteropus, I am sadden of your anti american views. We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

I am sure you are anti bush. But I ask you and propose to you to look at these issues for whats best for America. And not this far left ideology that you posses. I must tell you Misteropus you are fatally flawed!

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Originally posted by LatinLover We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

Well part of the problem is that their stories are being suppressed:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/15/usdom15496.htm

But here are some that have gotten out:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0819-06.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3706050.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanam...1981955,00.html

http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/nov...penlyadmits.htm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...d=1766&ito=1490

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...lsoftorture.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAMR510512007

http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=10663

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0921-03.htm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/26/usint16514.htm

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...=hr_indications

http://www.slate.com/id/2156397/fr/rss/


Even former Secretary Powell acknowledges it goes on:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

The role of Alberto Gonzales:
http://www.chelseagreen.com/about/p.../2005/january20

http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/t..._david_rose.htm

http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/proj...e-at-guantanamo

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Well part of the problem is that their stories are being suppressed: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/15/usdom15496.htm But here are some that have gotten out: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0819-06.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3706050.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanam...1981955,00.html http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/nov...penlyadmits.htm http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010205A.shtml http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...d=1766&ito=1490 http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...lsoftorture.htm http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAMR510512007 http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=10663 http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0921-03.htm http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/07/26/usint16514.htm http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...=hr_indications http://www.slate.com/id/2156397/fr/rss/ Even former Secretary Powell acknowledges it goes on: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/ The role of Alberto Gonzales: http://www.chelseagreen.com/about/p.../2005/january20 http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/t..._david_rose.htm http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/proj...e-at-guantanamo

These " alleged claims" have not been proven Nice try though

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Originally posted by LatinLover These " alleged claims" have not been proven Nice try though

...



There are so many directions I can go with this one... I don't even know where to start.

1. You asked for allegations of mistreatment by prisoners, claiming that none had stepped forward. I provided many documented cases.

2. Now you're asking for PROOF? What kind of proof would you like? Perhaps I can fly down to Guantanamo for you and observe it myself? Or would that still be borderline hearsay for you?

3. While we're on the topic of denying allegations... why is it ok to blindly deny these allegations in the face of overwhelming evidence and simultaneously accept allegations about an Iranian nuclear weapons program whose existence is dubious at best?

4. You blindly deny anything that is incompatible with your vision of American perfection, when it is clear and undeniable (at least one would think) that America has practiced and continues to enact some policies that are contrary to what we stand for. And when anyone points out this disconnect and says that we should fix it, you label them un-American for merely recognizing problems that should be addressed. If anyone is un-American, it is you people who think America is perfect as it is, because I have news for you, we are still far from perfection, and your refusal to recognize that only solidifies our inability to live up to our own basic principles upon which this country was founded. America does not need folks like you blindly trying to protect the status quo. We need people actively seeking to make this country better, so that we can live up to our commitments, to ourselves and to the rest of the world at large, so that one day we might actually be that shining beacon of freedom, justice, and equality that we always profess ourselves to be.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I mean who is talking about invading Iran? We shouldn disregard it but it should be the last option in the play book. Misteropus, I am sadden of your anti american views. We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

Dude you are kidding right?please get your head out of your ass.Your government doesnt give a fuck about the Geneva conventions.Infact according to alot of members of this admin torturing is completly legal when it comes to protecting America.

quote:

Originally posted by LatinLover I mean who is talking about invading Iran? We shouldn disregard it but it should be the last option in the play book.

I am merely carrying out your "strategic bombing" campaign out to it's logical end. Iran will more than likely retaliate in force toward Israel and/or Iraq where our soldiers reside, which will give us little option but to strike back. And as I have pointed out earlier, there are those wingnut analysts who want us to invade Iran and pray for such an invasion (i.e. Podheretz), who happen to have our President's ear.

So yes, you are referring to invading Iran because the actions you advocate will ineviteably lead to that, and the analysts your pro-war views line us nicely with and whom Bush listens to advocate and want it to happen as well.

quote:

Misteropus, I am sadden of your anti american views.

Not nearly as sad as I am with your incessant narrow-minded silliness. But I find it amusing to this coming from someone who advocates such hard-line stances in the Middle East and supports this Administration so fervently but refuses to stand behind that fervent support by enlisting and fighting for that said cause. Yellow really does look nice on supporters like you.

quote:

We torture people? Please provide me evidence of ex detainees in Guantamo that have suffered physical torture? Better yet, have any of these detainees come on to claim such actions? I am proud that the US is one of the few nations that tries to follow the geneva conventions laws at the best of their ability. I am proud that our military does not have a reputation of torturing people. Yes, when some soldiers misbehave we make sure justice is done. So please stop spitting on this far left crap.

*sigh*

Before I post any links, you have to show me that you're willing to turn over a new leaf. You have to demonstrate that you are willing to debate with integrity by reading, comprehending, and directly refuting any counterpoints made to your own baseless assertions. Forget me or anyone asking you to support your initial baseless assertions. We're all aware that you're horribly incapable of that. But if you're not willing to show some maturity and have an honest debate by reading and comprehending any counterpoints made to your assertions, I have absolutely no use for you.

I'm busy as shit with school, research, and training right now. I've wasted enough time on your ass in the past trying to get you to engage in a debate with honesty and integrity, only for you to handwave and ignore and act as if you're too fucking high and mighty to do so (and only demonstrated your lack of maturity and integrity as a consequence). It got you banned for good reason, and I'd venture to say it will probably happen soon again. But if you're willing to change your ways and show integrity by comprehending and directly responding to counterpoints made to your assertions, I'll play along and show you the evidence.

I have my sincere doubts, as you've just ignored Lebezniatnikov's post with links completely. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt one more time. Promise me you'll debate with integrity, and we'll continue.

quote:

I am sure you are anti bush.

Who the hell isn't nowadays?

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But I ask you and propose to you to look at these issues for whats best for America.

That's exactly what me and the majority of Americans who share my views are doing. Unfortunately for fringe individuals like yourself you have this glass prism point of view and believe your view is what all share and is best for everyone.

You realize your view is the extreme minority, right?

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And not this far left ideology that you posses.

My "far left" ideology is shared by the majority of Americans. Have a glance at www.pollingreport.com on a given myriad of issues and whatever majority you see for American views you will find my own resting nicely within that majority.

Yours, OTOH, are consistently in the minority. Yet you call my ideology the "far left". Funny how the majority outside of your viewpoints are "far left". Didn't realize so many "far left" majority Americans there were.

quote:

I must tell you Misteropus you are fatally flawed!

Yes, I've heard your unsupported rhetoric countless times in the past, and as I've said previously, I'm fucking tired as shit hearing your baseless claims with no supporting evidence to back yourself up. Enough already. Debate with integrity or in all likelihood a mod will interevene and take care of matters for you.

WOW

I mean someone posts some links of far left media, where it shows no evidence at all these tortures have occurred. Sorry but the one that posted those links, they have little credibility. Prison planet? Thank god i grew out of that shit when I was 10 years old.

Back to my point, those links are from far left media. They have proven to denigrate this Admin and only promote negative stuff. Till this day there isnt any credible source that can prove physical torture has occurred.

If you think that isolating someone, not feed'em for a period a long of time is harsh than I would be sure that many detainees in Cuba, Iran, North Korea would consider Guantamo a paradise compare to what those thugs in their country do to them

To the far left, stop crying over BS and get serious now, come on!

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