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Mormons.. they are not a threat to human life.

Scientology will kick you out once you are of no use to them [Money is low, sickness etc..]

The way the Chruch is run is all wrong. You need to read up on it a bit more. It's all secrets [well kept] and lies. Should not be considered a religion at all. I am glad that Anonymous is doing all these organized protests. Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting something you feel is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir I'm curious, what's your angle on all of this, why are you so passionate to prove everyone wrong? Are you just against all religion or what?

Very much so, but as long as we as societies accept religion, we should accept ALL silly and expensive beliefs. All churches are abusive at a mental level, but not all victims feel that they are so, and this goes for scientology aswell. So who am I, or anyone else for that matter to tell them that they are?

But what happens is that, -im sure well intended-, outsiders make it their business what these adults do with their lifes, and i find the sheer arrogance of this breathtaking.

My government is trying to tell me that i should smoke pot, because they believe it damages my health and that they btw. know better than i do what is good for me. I fail to see the difference.

If im free, then im free to fuck up too. and from my own life i know that the best, most valued lessons i have, came in this way. I made mistakes, i learned, life moved on.

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Absolutely nothing wrong with protesting something you feel is wrong.

we agree fully, i just commented what i felt about the protest when its not carried out to full extend targeting ALL abusive churches, and there are many

And im still just looking for the perspective behind anonymous reasoning. or perhaps rather consistency in it?!

Dont get me wrong, scientology is evil to the bone is my held belief, but they will have to find a place in line because there are so many takers for that position.

Read up a little on Mormons, they are a seriously fucked up bunch. They have lifes, families, whatever vile you can come up with they have on their consiousness, or lack thereof perhaps.

It is easy for all of us to target groups, but groups consists of people of which a majority will have their feelings hurt be being victimised now that they dont feel that they are themself. Is that right?

So you believe that religion is incapable of doing net good?

And also I appreciate that you realize what a slippery slope this is, but saying that instead of drawing the line somewhere we should not draw one at all is simple asinine. It seems that, according to your logic, people should not and are incapable of reasonably judging one another? Because it seems that the gist of your argument is 'who are we to say what's right' I can respect that, and see its merit, but thats where you seem to fail to acknowledge the concept that a society can act as a relative whole in dictating what is right and wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug Read up a little on Mormons, they are a seriously fucked up bunch. They have lifes, families, whatever vile you can come up with they have on their consiousness, or lack thereof perhaps.

Fundamentalist Mormons, please note the distinction. There's a world of difference between FLDS and LDS.

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Originally posted by mezzir So you believe that religion is incapable of doing net good?

yes, but i believe that religious people are often very capable of doing "good deeds", i would claim in contrary to their held beliefs, but whatever on my part right . Good work is good work is good work...

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And also I appreciate that you realize what a slippery slope this is, but saying that instead of drawing the line somewhere we should not draw one at all is simple asinine.

if society made scientology illegal, and only scientology, i would find that very sad and double standards. The thing is, society have not drawn a line, an anonymous groups is doing that. And the anonymous part is what is most worrying about it. What are their actual agenda, do you know? Are they christian out to save souls? as long as we dont know who they are, or represent whatever claim they make, may or may not be real. And the idea of secret/hidden accusers ressonates very bad with me personally, and with our whole idea of justice as put into a system.

You have a right to know your accuser in a court of law where i live, and i belive it is fundamental to "justice".

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It seems that, according to your logic, people should not and are incapable of reasonably judging one another?

from anything but a subjective perspective, and there is nothing wrong with it, but it makes me carefull not to "throw the first stone" and i hate the fact that its used to make moral laws.

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I can respect that, and see its merit, but thats where you seem to fail to acknowledge the concept that a society can act as a relative whole in dictating what is right and wrong.

but it hasnt! and thats the point. this is the modern day lynchmob in the street with anonymous leading on.

this thread went from discussion of epic win to real discusssion.

NOT ACCEPTABLE!

lol, ok, sorry my bad. Just forget my concerns and move on with what was going on

I believe I need to clarify what Anon's aims are for the protests, in light of recent posts.

Anonymous is not protesting against the belief system of the 'Church' Of Scientology. Anonymous is not protesting against the 1st Amendment right of the 'Church' Of Scientology to express its belief system.

Anonymous is protesting against the criminal actions and abusive practices of the organization known as the 'Church Of Scientology'. These actions are as follows:

- The cover-up of the death of Lisa McPherson, who was removed from hospital care by Scientologists, and found dead 17 days later in a room at the Fort Harrison Hotel.

- The operation of the prison known as "Rehabilitation Project Force", where children are being held against their will to do hard labor in order to become "in ethics"

- The 'disconnection' policy that forces family members to cut ties with one another.

- The abuse of high-ranking Scientology officials by the Chairman Of the Board, David Miscavige.

- The abuse of 'church' members by denying them medical care or the use of non-Scientology-approved medicine.

- The abuse of female 'church' members in the group's "Sea Org" division by forcing them to have abortions.

- The abuse of 'church' members by giving them insufficient nourishment (a diet of rice and beans), and not providing adequate compensation for work performed ($50 a week for 60+ hour work-weeks does not satisfy the minimum wage laws).

- The abuse, slander, and harassment of Scientology critics, all authorized by an official church "Fair Game" policy.

- The blackmail of members through the use of 'Auditing' sessions to gather personal secrets and use that information to prevent members from defecting.

- The operation of a "bait-and-switch" type business, where members are forced to 'donate' a large amount of money for 'courses' before they can learn the basic beliefs of the organization.

- The fact that the 'church' receives special tax breaks from the IRS, that no other 'religious' organization receives, even when the group gives its parishioners commissions based of recruitment, and members are forced to make 'fixed donations' in order to stay in the church.

- And there's more where that came from...

thank you for illuminating and expanding on those things Dojomaster. If Anon is truely rightious, then all the best. I just have no way of confirming their actual motivation one way or the other as these same things are practiced by other groups and or companies that are concidered socially accepted, and anon is anonymous.

When i dont know the accuser, and i can see that the issues, serious as they are, are ever present in religion aswell as politics and finances i just have to ponder.

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The fact that the 'church' receives special tax breaks from the IRS, that no other 'religious' organization receives, even when the group gives its parishioners commissions based of recruitment, and members are forced to make 'fixed donations' in order to stay in the church.

All churches that register as such are tax exempt in the US afaii, and the large part of Europe aswell. In fact, im paying 1% of my earnings to the christian church by LAW and im not even christian.

as for the masks, and that they have to wear them because scientology is known to harrass people. BS! I know that they are, but thats why you fight tyrants and let them know who you are,because you show that you are unafraid, nothing they can do or say scares you, you demonstrate their lack of power over you by letting them know who you are.

point in case:
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

this guy takes on radical islam with his face first, and he is very popular for it mind you. His target are not known to harass their critics in court, but to murder, bomb and mangle them. But there he is, on youtube with his face plastered all over the place saying in large words "FU radical islam, you dont scare me"

so do i think that Anon comes of as pussy and dishonest? hell yeah!!!

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug as for the masks, and that they have to wear them because scientology is known to harrass people. BS! I know that they are, but thats why you fight tyrants and let them know who you are,because you show that you are unafraid, nothing they can do or say scares you, you demonstrate their lack of power over you by letting them know who you are. point in case: http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell this guy takes on radical islam with his face first, and he is very popular for it mind you. His target are not known to harass their critics in court, but to murder, bomb and mangle them. But there he is, on youtube with his face plastered all over the place saying in large words "FU radical islam, you dont scare me" so do i think that Anon comes of as pussy and dishonest? hell yeah!!!

yeaaaaaaahhhhh but see these people are fucking nuts. like seriously crazy, and if they do deem you as much of a threat they WILL literally stalk and harass you, basically scare the shit out of you. this dude might be taking on islam in your view but the reality is by exposing himself he puts his life in danger if lets say someone decides to find him and kill em

quote:

yeaaaaaaahhhhh but see these people are fucking nuts. like seriously crazy, and if they do deem you as much of a threat they WILL literally stalk and harass you, basically scare the shit out of you.

if you allow that, then im sure that whats going to happen to you. And i find them no more crazy, as i have said allready ,than several groups, movements and companies. Their methods are no more sinister than those of the Coca Cola company, just to take another easy target.

quote:

this dude might be taking on islam in your view but the reality is by exposing himself he puts his life in danger if lets say someone decides to find him and kill em

he believes in his cause and the public effect his possible death would have (and so does his opponents). But im sure he doesnt aim specifically for it.

So...anon...do you belive in your cause? Enough to handle it like all the men and women history remember for fighting tyrants by refusing to be bullied into hiding or fear by them.

Wow. Bravo.

Did they put something in the water this week? It just seems like the idiots are on parade lately...

Anon, and whom else?

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug Anon, and whom else?

Are you an Alt? You seem very "involved" for someone who has just joined.

alt? part of their movement? no, in no way what so ever. I was told by another producer that this was a nice place to discuss trance and whatever, and by pure change this subject was here when i joined. The philosophy of freedom is very dear to me, so obviously i jumped into it because quite frankly, there are too many unknowns in this to make me fully comfortable.

Scientology has been the target of other religious groups fighting for souls, and i ahve seen one dishonest org after another become exposed as anything but "anti cult", they were just orgs fighting competetion. What excacty is Anon, who claims responsability, and who has the cojones to stand up in the open and make his case? If that was the case iw ould be all ears, but im not listening to hidden accusers, nomatter if their facts check up because i dont know or understand the real motivation without knowing who they are.

It may all be genuine, but i doubt it. It would be the first time that anonymous groups are so out of rightiousness and nothing but.

Its just youre luck that i hapened to enter on a day when there was a subject dear to me old ticker'

you are under estimating how corrupt the CoS is. [I understand so is most of the govt, other religions blah blah blah] But the legal team behind the Church has literally gotten away with murder.

if you understand that so is government, and most religion, then what exactly is the problem? I understand that we should fight evil as defined as causing harm to other people, obviously, but we should do so out in the open. They are deceptive and hide in the woodworks, so now im asking...what makes anon different in this regard?

Apparently they are more righteous than scientology, but as defined by whom and compared to what.

If you are not religious, would you not be highly offended by being emotionally hijacked by another cult to do their dirty work. Do you know that youre not?

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug as for the masks, and that they have to wear them because scientology is known to harrass people. BS! I know that they are, but thats why you fight tyrants and let them know who you are,because you show that you are unafraid, nothing they can do or say scares you, you demonstrate their lack of power over you by letting them know who you are.

This is why Anon is choosing to wear masks on March 15th:

http://forums.enturbulation.org/vie...&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

That links to a thread about the injunction that was filed today by the 'Church Of Scientology' against "AN ASSOCIATION OF PEOPLE KNOWN AS ANONYMOUS", in an attempt to prevent their ability to protest in Clearwater, FL on Saturday.

The injunction contains the names of 22 people, who the 'Church' claims are leaders of the group. Those names were discovered by Scientology agents (the 'Church' has a division called the Office Of Special Affairs, or OSA) during or after the February 10th protest. Anonymous members claimed to have been followed and extensively photographed during the protest in Clearwater, FL. It has been confirmed that a couple of the names on that injunction are of people who did interviews with the press on that day. This shows that the 'Church' is fabricating lies about Anons, and is trying to name its members so that they can file court actions such as this.

Anonymous protesters are wearing masks not because they are "afraid" of the COS or "cowards", but for their own protection from the actions of the 'Church' agents. Real bodily harm has been done to protesters of this group well before Anonymous became involved. Google "Operation Freakout" to see how OSA agents used papers with Paulette Cooper's fingerprints to type fake bomb threats, nearly landing the author in jail for a crime that she did not commit. Watch the video of Mark Bunker being attacked by a man with a hammer, while accompanying two German filmmakers as they try to film a documentary about the group. Watch any of the SCORES of videos showing Scientology agents and members assaulting Anons, harassing them, trying to destroy their cameras, etc.

The strength of Anonymous is the fact that the group has no 'leader'. There are no go-to people, since everything about the group is decided by consensus, and all of the group's doings are available to view on any of a number of web communities. The 'Church' is desperately trying (as seen in the injunction) to 'name' Anon members, in order to use "Fair Game" on them.

The Church Of Scientology is being the real coward in all of this, by not being honest about its practices, by keeping its doctrine private, and by always choosing to attack critics with "Fair Game" tactics and legalese rather than defend their points of view.

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug if you understand that so is government, and most religion, then what exactly is the problem? I understand that we should fight evil as defined as causing harm to other people, obviously, but we should do so out in the open. They are deceptive and hide in the woodworks, so now im asking...what makes anon different in this regard?

Because........ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

read it.. it's serious shit. they aren;t hiding as a joke.

quote:

The Church Of Scientology is being the real coward in all of this, by not being honest about its practices, by keeping its doctrine private and by always choosing to attack critics with "Fair Game" tactics and legalese rather than defend their points of view.

something they have in common with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
(they have changed attitude as of late tho, ill give them that)

we will have to agree to disagree, because for every post you make, more questions arise on the validity on the claims compared to the situation of "civilisation" as it is atm. scientology is such a small player when it comes to organised evil that i think there are places where the same efford would -hopefully- bring about more fruitfull results. But thank you for participating in the debate with me, i appreciate it.

edit:
ill give you my own story, i came from a very radical strain of Islam, but i managed to get my mind back not because of the pressure from critics, on the contrary as that only strengthens the held belief/dillusion as the counter pressure to what you belive is taken as confimration of the teaching/organisations validity. Afterall, the cult mind understand that its particular cult has THE TRUTH (and nothing but it), and understand they arent very many in their cult, so obviously there is a lot of people out there who are flat out wrong about...well everything. So if they (non cultists) form a protest group, thats just ironclad proof against them.

If this is a project to help the cult victims still in the cult, i belive this project will have zero no success, and there is that old saying: "any publicity is good publicity", so its a defacto win/win situation for the cult itself, it is just too stupid to realise it.

quote:

Originally posted by celestial thug we will have to agree to disagree, because for every post you make, more questions arise on the validity on the claims compared to the situation of "civilisation" as it is atm. scientology is such a small player when it comes to organised evil that i think there are places where the same efford would -hopefully- bring about more fruitfull results. But thank you for participating in the debate with me, i appreciate it.

I guess we will have to agree that our viewpoints differ when it comes to this. I believe that any positive change, no matter how small, is good change. While I also think there are 'bigger fish to fry' in this world, the fact that Anon is doing something about an entity that they can handle (ie with a public awareness campaign) is commendable.

I enjoyed this discussion and having the opportunity to discuss our points without it turning into a flame-fest.

quote:

edit: ill give you my own story, i came from a very radical strain of Islam, but i managed to get my mind back not because of the pressure from critics, on the contrary as that only strengthens the held belief/dillusion as the counter pressure to what you belive is taken as confimration of the teaching/organisations validity. Afterall, the cult mind understand that its particular cult has THE TRUTH (and nothing but it), and understand they arent very many in their cult, so obviously there is a lot of people out there who are flat out wrong about...well everything. So if they (non cultists) form a protest group, thats just ironclad proof against them.

Thank you for your story. I have seen reports and testimonies from ex-Scientologists that their group uses the same methods to keep their members 'in'. To them L.Ron Hubbard was 'source', and that his 'tech', or teachings, was perfect. It's sad that this kind of indoctrinization is still happening to people today...

quote:

If this is a project to help the cult victims still in the cult, i belive this project will have zero no success, and there is that old saying: "any publicity is good publicity", so its a defacto win/win situation for the cult itself, it is just too stupid to realise it.

Hopefully some of the people inside will come out and talk to their families again. That is the purpose of the April events, called "Operation Reconnect". If they can get one member to be reunited with his/her family then IMO it is worth the effort. There was a quote somewhere about "bad things happen if good men let them happen"...

you're right, a little good is better than no good, I agree -obviously- when put like that, but reserve my scepticism against anonymous groups by and large

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" - attributed to E.Burke, and it is a well chosen quote.

Fuck the "Church" of Scientology. They make a mockery of science by using it in their name. Assholes..

L. Ron Hubbard and starting a religion for money
While the often-cited rumor that Hubbard made a bar bet with Robert A. Heinlein that he could start a cult is likely an embellishment, many witnesses have reported Hubbard making statements in their presence that starting a religion would be a good way to make money.

Editor Sam Merwin, for example, recalled a meeting: "I always knew he was exceedingly anxious to hit big money�he used to say he thought the best way to do it would be to start a cult." (December 1946)[58] Writer and publisher Lloyd Arthur Eshbach reported Hubbard saying "I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is." Writer Theodore Sturgeon reported that Hubbard made a similar statement at the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society. Likewise, writer Sam Moskowitz reported in an affidavit that during a Eastern Science Fiction Association meeting on November 11, 1948, Hubbard had said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."[59] Milton A. Rothman also reported to his son Tony Rothman that he heard Hubbard make exactly that claim at a science fiction convention.[citation needed] In 1998, an A&E documentary titled "Inside Scientology" shows Lyle Stuart reporting that Hubbard stated repeatedly that to make money, "you start a religion."[60]

According to The Visual Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, ed. Brian Ash, Harmony Books, 1977:

" . . .[Hubbard] began making statements to the effect that any writer who really wished to make money should stop writing and develop [a] religion, or devise a new psychiatric method. Harlan Ellison's version (Time Out, UK, No 332) is that Hubbard is reputed to have told [John W.] Campbell, "I'm going to invent a religion that's going to make me a fortune. I'm tired of writing for a penny a word." Sam Moskowitz, a chronicler of science fiction, has reported that he himself heard Hubbard make a similar statement, but there is no first-hand evidence."
The following letter, written by L. Ron Hubbard, was discovered by the FBI during its raid on Scientology headquarters. The letter shows Hubbard turned Scientology into a "religion" for financial reasons:

(1953)

DEAR HELEN

10 APRIL

RE CLINIC, HAS
The arrangements that have been made seem a good temporary measure. On a longer look, however, something more equitable will have to be organized. I am not quite sure what we would call the place - probably not a clinic - but I am sure that it ought to be a company, independent of the HAS [the Hubbard Association of Scientologists] but fed by the HAS. We don't want a clinic. We want one in operation but not in name. Perhaps we could call it a Spiritual Guidance Center. Think up its name, will you. And we could put in nice desks and our boys in neat blue with diplomas on the walls and 1. knock psychotherapy into history and 2. make enough money to shine up my operating scope and 3. keep the HAS solvent. It is a problem of practical business. I await your reaction on the religion angle. In my opinion, we couldn't get worse public opinion than we have had or have less customers with what we've got to sell. A religious charter would be necessary in Pennsylvania or NJ to make it stick. But I sure could make it stick. We're treating the present time beingness, psychotherapy treats the past and the brain. And brother, that's religion, not mental science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy

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