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-- Adoption.
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quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel The scenario I gave, specifically, too broke to afford another child, hits home for me. Why? I was not adopted, but seriously, there are 7 kids, and there was never enough money JUST to survive. My sperm and egg donor relied on the church (the mormon church as they are mormons) for food, and a good number of times, to pay the bills. Given that not everyone has that luxury, you could easily be SELFLESS, because you are thinking about the BEST interests of the child at stake and also the potential for a couple to have a kid that they would not otherwise be able to have, and put the child up for adoption. No matter how you want to look at it, giving your child up for adoption properly, will result in placement with a couple that can't have kids immediately if you start the process way before the child is to be born. While I don't disagree that abortion is the best first defense against this situation, there are also other alternatives that will result in just as good of an outcome.

Why are you giving up the child? Because you cannot provide it a good life and would feel guilty keeping it and providing it a shitty one. Sure, there is a certain level of selflessness, but not entirely. Ultimately they would give it up to ease their own conscience.

While saying that, as I have stated many times before, I understand that life isn't perfect and shit happens.

Let me clarify as I think many people seem to be focussed on this idea that I am anti-adoption. I THINK ADOPTION IS A GOOD THING FOR THE SOCIETY IN WHICH WE LIVE where people do not take ownership for themselves. However, I don't think it is the way it SHOULD be.

I am absolutely not trying to debate that adoption does not result in good things (take Ange for example.) I know it does... and I have full intentions to adopt when I am older.

What I am trying to say is that in an ideal world, people should take ownership for themselves and their actions. If you cannot raise your own children, then prevent the pregnancy. I don't think it should ever get to the point where you are abandoning your child in the first place.

Now can someone please debate with me why that is so wrong, which is what my point was in the first place?

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie I see what you mean, but I disagree.

Care to explain why?

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa That has to be the most idiotic thing you have ever said on these forums. Do you know how much of an ass you sound like?

like i give a fuck about your illogical, irrational and generally idiotic opinions. so you're allowed to buy a new pair of jeans and think "man, my bum looks good in these" but im not allowed to say "gee, im smart" despite the overwhelming evidence to support such a fact? what, are we all meant to sit down and play all humble-like whilst try-hards like yourself spout nonsense?

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa My assessment of what exactly? Please explain what "assessment" is wrong.

your assessment of your own arguments. they are routinely illogical or come from the heart and not the head. your posts in the marijuana or circumcisision threads are perfect examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa My *opinion* that people should not be putting their children up for adoption? Or the facts that I have provided to justify why I don't think it is right?

Your "facts" are irrelevant. You never think of the bigger picture when you post your admirable but still erroneous opinions. Like, how would you prevent the wholesale dumping of unwanted children? You havent justified why you think it is ok to prevent screened couples from adopting children and providing a better life. Who are you to tell parents what they can and cannot do with their own offspring, based upon a bunch of statistics?

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa This has nothing to do with emotions... it has to do with facts and real lives. I have been very rational and logical, and personally think I have done a good job in providing more than ample reason to have the opinion that I do. You on the other hand continue to spout off a bunch of self-righteous, pompous, and ignorant statements without attempting to make an intelligent reason for doing so.

Your opinions are almost anything but rational and logical, and I couldn�t give a shit how I "come across". The fact that you think you're logical or rational means nothing to the rest of us. These forums are littered with your well-meaning but ill-considered opinions, and if you think they were also "very rational and logical" then ive got news for you, and its all bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa I no longer wish to continue going back and forth with you until you decide to step off that pedestal of yours and actually have a discussion. dis�cus�sion Audio Help /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-skuhsh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation �noun an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate. In case you didn't know, simply telling me that I am wrong, and that you are right is not a discussion. Thanks

The point is, is that you miss the point. Having an opinion against adoption is all well and good, but what is needed is a thorough analysis of how you feel the inherent problems in such a position can be attended to (some of which I have mentioned here). Ideas and opinion don't exist in a vaccuum you know, either you provide realistic alternatives to adoption and a justification for telling others what to do (which seems to be a real favourite of yours) or you STFU with your half-baked bollocks.

You havent even begun to scratch the surface of this topic nor address the obvious ramifications which is why myself and others treat you with such derision. its not my job to be nice to people that regularly display their lack of critical thinking.

So then really, abstinence is what you should be preaching...and not abortion.

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Care to explain why?

Aborting a fetus is still abandonment, imo.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie So then really, abstinence is what you should be preaching...and not abortion.

Not at all.

We are sexual creatures. We are one of the very few on this planet that enjoy sex for pleasure. I don't think people should abstain... there is nothing wrong with something that is natural.

Maybe back in the day when there weren't known ways to prevent pregnancy I would have thought that those who could not raise children should abstain. However, we are in a time in which there are plenty of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN

All of that was just you telling me I am wrong and not explaining why you are right. It is a lot easier to simply say someone else isn't right without proving why or claiming what is.

You blab on about how I am illogical etc. etc., but haven't provided a reason that it is true other than that you think it is.

We just keep going in circles.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Aborting a fetus is still abandonment, imo.

Ok, so it is a difference in how we feel about abortion. That is a whole new can of worms right there and it has been beaten to death on these forums.

I respect that you feel that way and agree to disagree on that one...

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa Not at all. We are sexual creatures. We are one of the very few on this planet that enjoy sex for pleasure. I don't think people should abstain... there is nothing wrong with something that is natural. Maybe back in the day when there weren't known ways to prevent pregnancy I would have thought that those who could not raise children should abstain. However, we are in a time in which there are plenty of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

So then a woman who chooses to have an abortion after getting pregnant because the condom broke ISN'T avoiding accountability?

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa All of that was just you telling me I am wrong and not explaining why you are right. It is a lot easier to try and prove someone else wrong than it is to prove yourself right. You blab on about how I am illogical etc. etc., but haven't provided reason that it is true other than that you think it is right. We just keep going in circles.

*sighs*

My central thesis is that you have no right to tell parents what to do with their children, nor tell adoptive parents that they can't adopt a child.

This is the third fucking time ive said, I'm unsure why we keep skipping over it.

My secondary thesis is that opinions are fucking pointless unless you can show that they are capable of being put into action. So, either you explain to us what you would do with an influx of dumped or abused or refugee children, or you quit avoiding such questions by calling yourself an "idealist".

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie So then a woman who chooses to have an abortion after getting pregnant because the condom broke ISN'T avoiding accountability?

No.

You can only be accountable for your actions.

She took accountability by attempting to prevent pregnancy. Accident happened.

With the new circumstance, abortion is taking responsibility for herself. As there isn't "someone else" to be accountable to, there is not a lack of accountability existing.

In case there is a semantics issue, this is what I understand as accountability:

accountability

noun
responsibility to someone or for some activity

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN *sighs* My central thesis is that you have no right to tell parents what to do with their children, nor tell adoptive parents that they can't adopt a child. This is the third fucking time ive said, I'm unsure why we keep skipping over it. My secondary thesis is that opinions are fucking pointless unless you can show that they are capable of being put into action. So, either you explain to us what you would do with an influx of dumped or abused or refugee children, or you quit avoiding such questions by calling yourself an "idealist".

You have obviously not read anything I have written. Either that or you're having some type of problem with comprehension.

Please reread what my stance is and try again.

EDIT:

Opinions are pointless unless they can be put into action? Really?!

Since when did an opinion have to have a point other than simply having it?

Hmmm... so my opinion that the paint on the wall is more of a navy blue then a sky blue... well wait, I can't put that into action, so why bother thinking it... or even ever telling anyone? It's pointless and irrelevant apparently.

o�pin�ion Audio Help /əˈpɪnyən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-pin-yuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.
6. a favorable estimate; esteem:

Ok... so a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. Wow... that sounds a lot like what I was saying earlier. A favorable estimate??? Weird how that is exactly what my so called pointless opinion is.

Alright, fair enough, you think my opinion is pointless because I have not come up with ways in order to make my opinion a moot point to begin with... fine. However... given that this thread started by ASKING OUR OPINION, my opinion actually DID have a point... by providing opinions to someone who has asked for them.



Suddenly it went from simply stating an opinion to having to explain how reversing the reasons for my opinion in the first place would work. Should I create a diagram for you or something? Would you like spreadsheets?

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by Theresa No. You can only be accountable for your actions. She took accountability by attempting to prevent pregnancy. Accident happened. With the new circumstance, abortion is taking responsibility for herself. As there isn't "someone else" to be accountable to, there is not a lack of accountability existing. In case there is a semantics issue, this is what I understand as accountability: accountability noun responsibility to someone or for some activity

ac�count�a�bil�i�ty

1. the state of being accountable, liable, or answerable.
2. Education. a policy of holding schools and teachers accountable for students' academic progress by linking such progress with funding for salaries, maintenance, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie ac�count�a�bil�i�ty 1. the state of being accountable, liable, or answerable. 2. Education. a policy of holding schools and teachers accountable for students' academic progress by linking such progress with funding for salaries, maintenance, etc.

I think it is redundant to refer to a definition of a word that actually uses the same word to define it. If you got that from dictionary.com, just scroll down a little more and you will see where I got my blurb.

So as "being accountable" is still leaving semantics issues.

li�a�ble Audio Help /ˈlaɪəbəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy-uh-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�adjective
1. legally responsible: You are liable for the damage caused by your action.
2. subject or susceptible: to be liable to heart disease.
3. likely or apt: He's liable to get angry.



Answerable
An"swer*a*ble\, a. 1. Obliged to answer; liable to be called to account; liable to pay, indemnify, or make good; accountable; amenable; responsible; as, an agent is answerable to his principal; to be answerable for a debt, or for damages.

Will any man argue that . . . he can not be justly punished, but is answerable only to God? --Swift.

2. Capable of being answered or refuted; admitting a satisfactory answer.

The argument, though subtle, is yet answerable. --Johnson.

3. Correspondent; conformable; hence, comparable.

What wit and policy of man is answerable to their discreet and orderly course? --Holland.

This revelation . . . was answerable to that of the apostle to the Thessalonians. --Milton.

4. Proportionate; commensurate; suitable; as, an achievement answerable to the preparation for it.

5. Equal; equivalent; adequate.


Given that... who are you accountable to other than yourself if there isn't someone else to be accountable to? Who do you have to answer to other than yourself? You can't "answer" to a clump of cells.

EDIT:

Unless of course there is a belief that you are accountable to a god... and again, in that case there is a whole new argument.

Welp, then it really is a matter of the opinion of what constitutes life.


*tips hat to Theresa and leaves*

rape, raped, rap�ing.

�noun 1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
�verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse.
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
�verb (used without object) 9. to commit rape.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN rape, raped, rap�ing. �noun 1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3. statutory rape. 4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside. 5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force. �verb (used with object) 6. to force to have sexual intercourse. 7. to plunder (a place); despoil. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force. �verb (used without object) 9. to commit rape.

Are you admitting that you are getting raped in this argument?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN rape, raped, rap�ing. 8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.

Well, I have taken things before. I guess that makes me a rapist!

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well, I have taken things before. I guess that makes me a rapist!

You're the devil... just like marijuana users!!

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie My next door neighbour was a ward of the government right up until last summer when she turned 18. She is a smart, hard working girl, and will be starting school in the fall for nursing. She works two jobs to pay her rent, and has saved all of her money to pay for school. She's owned 2 cars, both of which she paid cash for. Doesn't sound like she grew up to abuse the system to me.

18 & financially independant? Send her my way!

Re: Adoption.

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik If you were adopted, would you want to know?

Yes

quote:

If you knew, would you want to meet your birth parents?

My thought is maybe, just to say thank you.

quote:

If you adopted a child, how would you feel about the birth mother trying to contact you?

I think I would understand.

quote:

If you gave up a child, would you want to contact him or her when they reached adulthood?

I think out of love to the child I would be strong enough not to contact him or her but if he/she chose to contact me, I would welcome the opportunity to meet them.

quote:

Any other thoughts on adoption?

If you are unable to give your unborn baby the kind of life that all children deserve, the greatest gift of love is to give that child to a couple who can.

Re: Re: Adoption.

quote:

Originally posted by Echo of Silence If you are unable to give your unborn baby the kind of life that all children deserve, the greatest gift of love is to give that child to a couple who can.

no no no. read the thread. theresa thinks its a much better idea if they get a dose of mr hoover.

Re: Re: Re: Adoption.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no no no. read the thread. theresa thinks its a much better idea if they get a dose of mr hoover.

I read it.

I believe in a woman's right to choose but that includes a woman's right to choose life.

Let's say I am pregnant. Suddenly, I'm stricken with a sense of God knows what, I can't imagine that this baby is just a mass of goo, I already think of the baby (which of course isn't really a person yet) as a little person. So I can't abort. Ack, a moment of weakness. Or maybe I was raised Catholic. Whatever. We go full term.

If I give birth to a baby is the best thing that I can do for my baby to keep it and raise it? Not always. That may actually be the worst thing that I can do but the easiest. And it could be the most selfish.

It seems to me that, in United States, most of the children who are in the "system" (by in the "system" we mean children who are not adopted and thus, wards of the state, I think?) are childen whose fathers are nothing more than sperm donors and whose mothers thought they were capable of raising their babies and turned out to be incapable because of poverty, drug/alcohol addiction, lack of resources, lack of education, lack of maturity, what have you.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Adoption.

quote:

Originally posted by Echo of Silence I am pregnant.

I didn't do it or did I. Quick, call Andrey too!

Theresa have you ever seen the movie Juno? If not you should rent it hun.

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