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Joseph Campbell - Religion and Mythology

I've always viewed religion as an adult's nightlight. Nightlights are there to provide a sense of security by lighting up the darkness which is what frightens kids as it's an intangible fright. Death and creation are the ultimate intangibles, and religions act as a nightlight to provide a sense of security and meaning to them. imoimoimo

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost Alright pkr, I have some work to do as well, and this is also becoming more prolonged than I would have hoped.

well, i blame you!!

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost I think the most significant element involved here (and this relates to my question of 'methodology,' as you remarked upon later) is a proper understanding of historical context (and perhaps context in general). The Bible is undoubtedly trans-temporal, but there is much within it that needs to be understood relative to the context of culture and history. Without this understanding, you're likely to walk away with the type of impression you outlined above.

very true. but i would contend that the word of the ever-lasting, all-knowing, infallible god wouldn't (or shouldn't) need context. how are we meant to determine what is a casualty of "context" and what god really means/wants?

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost I don't think that's quite accurate. Some place a great emphasis upon personal interpretation and personal meaning derived from Biblical passages, but I don't think any theologian will accept the legitimacy of any Biblical interpretation, as I believe there are guidelines involved when doing this.

what i meant was, that people can find whatever they themselves are looking for within the pages of the good book(s). the holy books are pretty good at having people show their true colours. a racist sexist vengeful bastard can find a littany of supporting "evidence" to substantiate their beliefs, as can a kind and forgiving person. in my opinion a theologian's opinion is rather irrelevant, because they too are nothing more than a fellow "interpreter". do they have a deeper understanding of the bible than me? possibly. but also possibly not. being able to quote scripture at length doesn't mean they are any more correct than i am. there is no "yard stick" with which to measure religious belief. logic might tell us that someone who has studied the bible might know more about it than someone who has not, yet experience tells us that this isn't always the case (look at any crazy US evangelical bastard, for whom i think jesus' word is as foreign as another language).

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost There may also be things that everyone understands the same, but have differing understandings as to its personal meaning (though I'm not qualified to say).

who says you are not qualified?

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost I would argue that is precisely in the struggle for understanding and meaning that one attains a sense of meaningfulness, and the effort exerted in trying to attain a deep level of meaning is as important as the attainment of meaning itself Some would argue that that with every religious text, there are different levels by which you would read it, and whatever your capabilities are in doing so is right for you. I would say the extent by which you are able to understand it relative to someone else is insignificant relative to the idea of searching for meaning, via whatever capacity you have to do so.

yes, both very good points. but then, i always took the bible as a "guide" for humans (and i think there's a fair body of the bible that acts as exactly that) and its pretty hard to guide someone when they don't understand the signs

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost This relates to the points I made earlier. There are different ways to go about approaching the Bible. Some people do so in a purely literal sense, others in a purely metaphorical or allegorical sense, and others a combination of both. Some people understand passages relative to their historical context, and others don't. In other words how you read it will dramatically affect what type of sentiments or impressions you walk away with.

the problem though is that whether you read it literally or allegorically is purely up to the reader. they can basically read into any part whatever they wish. as beat blog i think mentioned elsewhere, the bible only became allegorical to people once science started to peel back the ignorance, and i for one don't have a lot of faith in a deity that let's his word be used (often punitively) incorrectly for thousands of years, or have lies and misconceptions passed off as his word for the same time period. correct me if im wrong, but jehovah has gone to pretty extreme lengths in the past to make sure his word/will was paid attention to

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Originally posted by Paradox Lost it is simply the Arabic word for God.

Correct, it is the word for "God".

However, as Islam teaches that there is only one God, it makes no sense for Muslims to be calling their deity anything but.

The Muslim God is a different being to the Christian God.

However, it's a moot point, because I don't believe in any Gods, except myself of course. Now bow down to your master!

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Originally posted by Beat Blog Correct, it is the word for "God". However, as Islam teaches that there is only one God, it makes no sense for Muslims to be calling their deity anything but.

And they do. I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding your post, but all Muslims refer to the One God, regardless as to whether they say it in English or in Arabic.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog The Muslim God is a different being to the Christian God.

Are you saying that God in Christianity is different than God in Islam? Some Christians would say so, but most Muslims believe that it was the same God who revealed the same message of Divine Oneness to Prophets and Messengers throughout history. However, their message became corrupted over time, with Islam being the final revelation, and the restoration of pure, Abrahamic monotheism.

It's worth mentioning that there are Muslim adherents (not sure how many) to the Perennial Philosophy (notably Islamic scholar Seyyed Hossein Nasr), who believe that the differences in various religious traditions are the result of Divine Will, and were intended to be the way they are.

Okay, now I'm out.

It's been a stimulating discussion.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog This thread has gone COMPLETELY off-topic, it was never supposed to be an argument about whether or not a higher being exists. However, tossing that aside, I'll join the current discussion... Alex, I am well versed with the bible, I studied it from age 5 to 18. How THE FUCK does being well-versed with the bible influence one's belief in God? To call an athiest's arguments unsubstantial purely because they are not versed with the bible is ridiculous. I haven't read the Qur'an, yet I don't believe in Allah, and I deny that he exists. I'm sure you would deny that he exists too. Have you read the Qur'an yet? I've never read Hindu scriptures, yet I don't believe in Vishnu or Krishna. Do you? Have you read Hindu scriptures? My disbelief in God, or ANY higher being, is based on what I observe in the world around me, as a rational, thinking being. As pkc so aptly put it, I don't need to eat a shit sandwich to know it tastes like shit, I can observe that with my own reasoning and deductional skills, rather than reading a 2000 year old book which tells me that the sandwich tastes the way it does. You are making the mistake of believing that all Athiests are either a) Well versed with the bible and refute it. b) Are not well versed with the bible and are using unbased arguments. I, on the other hand, am very well versed with the book, but I do not even consider it when forming the views and opinions I have on God and higher beings.

Read my posts, it's not just about being well versed in the Bible, it's about being well versed in the entire subject.

You're dense if you think I've formed my entire opinion on the subject on the basis of reading 1 book, I've recommended 4 authors in this thread alone.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog This thread has gone COMPLETELY off-topic, it was never supposed to be an argument about whether or not a higher being exists.

The thread title would lead one to believe that the thread is about the benefits of being religious.

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Originally posted by Alex Read my posts, it's not just about being well versed in the Bible, it's about being well versed in the entire subject. You're dense if you think I've formed my entire opinion on the subject on the basis of reading 1 book, I've recommended 4 authors in this thread alone.

...and that's my point.

Athiests don't like reading books on things they've been studying their whole lives.

Whereas one can read about physics or how to make an engine, i.e practicalities, no one human has an advantage over the other in knowing whether a God exists or not. There is no research or investigation that can be done. Hence my opinion on whether there is a God is just as valid as that of the person who has written 10 books on the subject, because they have no evidence to back up their position and neither do I.

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Originally posted by Ted Promo The thread title would lead one to believe that the thread is about the benefits of being religious.

Yes, it is.

But people are arguing about their own beliefs, not whether they are beneficial or not.

Again, the thread was supposed to be about mankind's religious experience as a whole and the intervention of religious bodies and councils anyway (the physical side if you will), not each individual's view on their own beliefs or how religion has benefited them personally.

Fuck it though, the thread has been well and truly hijacked and this new conversation is interesting enough.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog ...and that's my point. Athiests don't like reading books on things they've been studying their whole lives. Whereas one can read about physics or how to make an engine, i.e practicalities, no one human has an advantage over the other in knowing whether a God exists or not. There is no research or investigation that can be done. Hence my opinion on whether there is a God is just as valid as that of the person who has written 10 books on the subject, because they have no evidence to back up their position and neither do I.

What a load of bull shit.

I'm done with this discussion for now.

religion is subjective

Religion is great for your sex life

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Originally posted by Alex What a load of bull shit. I'm done with this discussion for now.

What a complete and utter cop out!

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Originally posted by Alex What a load of bull shit. I'm done with this discussion for now.

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Originally posted by Alex I don't go to church because for 10 years I've known more about the bible than any idiot evangelical pastor I've encountered, I also question the validity of practically every claim in the bible. In this thread alone I've offered a number of books, articles and a few other "facts" that managed to scare that other guy off it seems, or maybe he's just taking a shit, whatever.

Scared me off! I went to bed numbnuts.
You think a few quotes from a Christian apologist website is offering evidence? What did you expect to find on www.christiananswers.com ? That they would repeat the fact that no evidence has been found that the Israelites were even in the desert for 40 years?

I notice you having a go at PKC a lot in this thread, in my opinion he is talking far more sense than you are...why are some theists so angry towards atheists, simply for rejecting their bible and disbelieving in their god? Perhaps they are annoyed that some people realise what a load of bullshit religion is, and aren't afraid to say so.
Perhaps deep down they know themselves what a load of bullshit it is.

A question for you...why does the god of the bible revere blind faith and belief in unreasonable nonsense as the most important quality in a person?

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Originally posted by Alex What a load of bull shit. I'm done with this discussion for now.

If we by any chance happen to need you, in which corner will you be hiding at?

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Originally posted by Moongoose If we by any chance happen to need you, in which corner will you be hiding at?

In the church of course!

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Originally posted by Beat Blog In the church of course!

Hi Beat Blog,

why do you ignore me when before you wouldn't?

what have i done to wrong you?

Hugs,
spacechica

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Originally posted by spacechica Hi Beat Blog, why do you ignore me when before you wouldn't? what have i done to wrong you? Hugs, spacechica

he found out that your people killed his uncle.

It really doesn't matter what ur stance on the bible is. Regardless this book has led many men to success and prosperous lives, which imo means that there have been many benefits from religion for mankind.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why the fuck would i force myself to read something that i found completely underwhelming (not to mention difficult to read) just so someone might take me more seriously when i say "leviticus is bullshit" when it should already be obvious to them?

I'll just ignore all the filler and get down to brass tax (which the above statement cuts to the heart of)... If you don't read the source material then you cannot understand it, which means you're not qualified to pass judgment on it and incapable of intelligently discussing it. Your statement "leviticus is bullshit" for instance... please explain that; what part is bullshit? Are you stating it has absolutely no value? Can you explain the context of the book? Do you have any appreciation for the practical value of this book? Clearly you cannot answer these questions in any meaningful way, as having never read the book your opinion is really based on what other's have told you... maybe you should think for yourself; it's highly probable that your opinion wouldn't change but at least you could understand your own position. All that said, we've been through this same thing before and I know I'm wasting my time with you as you're not willing to put in the effort on a position you're already firm on. If you ever decide you wish to understand the subject of this discussion rather then just reacting to the limited knowledge you've stumbled upon then maybe we can speak intelligently on it.

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Originally posted by nefardec Religion is great for your sex life

That's true, actually. Sometimes I wish I was religious (and promiscuous) during my teens because I would certainly have joined one of those "Church Youth Clubs"... it's incredible, they seem to bonk even more than they pray! I know a girl who would often have threesomes with the guys from her church, and an old professor of mine told me how he once had anal sex in the altar so he could feel "sinful" and have God forgive him

Damn, you, nerdy and lonely atheism

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I'll just ignore all the filler and get down to brass tax (which the above statement cuts to the heart of)... If you don't read the source material then you cannot understand it, which means you're not qualified to pass judgment on it and incapable of intelligently discussing it. Your statement "leviticus is bullshit" for instance... please explain that; what part is bullshit? Are you stating it has absolutely no value? Can you explain the context of the book? Do you have any appreciation for the practical value of this book? Clearly you cannot answer these questions in any meaningful way, as having never read the book your opinion is really based on what other's have told you... maybe you should think for yourself; it's highly probable that your opinion wouldn't change but at least you could understand your own position. All that said, we've been through this same thing before and I know I'm wasting my time with you as you're not willing to put in the effort on a position you're already firm on. If you ever decide you wish to understand the subject of this discussion rather then just reacting to the limited knowledge you've stumbled upon then maybe we can speak intelligently on it.

that's the most disappointing response ive ever read from you. i know you have new responsibilities which is fair enough... but seriously.

of course ive read it. i wouldn't make that statement if i hadn't read it. ive even re-written the first chapter of genesis just for a laugh in case youre wondering. my knowledge of the bible is patchy because that's how i read it (and a long time ago i might add). i have never ever pretended to be a biblical scholar and i still challenge you that a knowledge of the bible is essential to dismiss the idea of a (desert) god.

not being able to recite chapter and verse and admitting i haven't read the bible in its entirety is rather meaningless. how about you address some of the more substantive issues i have? its not like you to cherry-pick posts and construct an argument like "well, ive read more than you so there's no point in discussing it".

but, since you asked, let's start with Leviticus 20:13 (thanks google!)

absolute bullshit, and anyone that think god cares what i do with my (consensual) cock is a moron.

-----

knowledge of the bible is not remotely necessary to discount the existence of god.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that's the most disappointing response ive ever read from you. i know you have new responsibilities which is fair enough... but seriously. of course ive read it. i wouldn't make that statement if i hadn't read it. ive even re-written the first chapter of genesis just for a laugh in case youre wondering. my knowledge of the bible is patchy because that's how i read it (and a long time ago i might add). i have never ever pretended to be a biblical scholar and i still challenge you that a knowledge of the bible is essential to dismiss the idea of a (desert) god. not being able to recite chapter and verse and admitting i haven't read the bible in its entirety is rather meaningless. how about you address some of the more substantive issues i have? its not like you to cherry-pick posts and construct an argument like "well, ive read more than you so there's no point in discussing it". but, since you asked, let's start with Leviticus 20:13 (thanks google!) absolute bullshit, and anyone that think god cares what i do with my (consensual) cock is a moron. ----- knowledge of the bible is not remotely necessary to discount the existence of god.

With regard to Lev 20:13 in particular, I agree with you... there is little to no reasonable basis for this passage. In truth, I think much of Leviticus is outdated. This is not a commentary on god, however. Leviticus is one book that is a prime example of rules/laws of man being ascribed to god based on earlier theology. For example; 20:13 states that homosexual intercourse is a sin and the sinners should be put to death. This was written by Moses (or claimed to have been) in response to the story of Soddem in which God destroys the city after some of the townsmen attempt to rape an angle. The Hebrews of Moses' time believed that Soddem was destroyed due to homosexual activity; however, what they paid little attention to was the fact that angels are non-sexual beings thus it is reasonable that the city was destroyed for the attempted rape rather then the homosexual bent of said attempted rape. Most of Leviticus is this way... rules written in response to earlier stories thus it says more about what the Hebrews of the time thought about God rather then God itself (presuming the existance of god, which is necessary for this discussion). Even if one discounts the parts of Leviticus that are inconsistant with the overall theology of the Bible it does have value in that it was an early form of written law and contained rules that safeguarded the Hebrews of the time... the whole pork thing is one of those.

Most of the inconsistancies of the Bible (which you love to point to) are easily explained as being misinterpretations by the writers or rewriters. One must bear in mind that this is a collection of books written by 30ish authors over a period of over 1000 years, which is intended to serve multiple purposes. Some of the books are theological, some historical, and others are codified law. One could pull inconsistancies from any believe system (be it theological or philisophical) which has evolved over time, this does not invalidate the belief system though... you have to look at the big picture with these things, look for what is consistant and consider that to be what is valid.

Finally, I didn't state that one must possess a knowledge of the Bible to conclude there is no god. My position is that one must possess a knowlege of the bible in order to evaluate it's worth, similarly; one must possess a knowlege of religion, anthropology, and history in order to evaluate the worth of religion. It seems to me that very few of the people involved in this discussion the requisit knowlege to engage in meaningful discussion of this question. I took exceptional umbridge with your post because you are so forceful in espousing your beliefs (or lack there of) while similtaniously stating that there is no worth in understanding that which you are railling against. Such a position is absolute shit and far below your capabilities. If you insist on holding this position then there is no point in having further discussion with you as such a position confirms that you have no interest in furthering your understanding; rather, you are only looking for an opportunity to spar using that which you already know/believe. This is a lot like building a cardboard canoe in your living room... it may be fun to hop in and pretend to paddle but it doesn't get anyone anywhere.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard With regard to Lev 20:13 in particular, I agree with you... there is little to no reasonable basis for this passage. In truth, I think much of Leviticus is outdated. This is not a commentary on god, however. Leviticus is one book that is a prime example of rules/laws of man being ascribed to god based on earlier theology. For example; 20:13 states that homosexual intercourse is a sin and the sinners should be put to death. This was written by Moses (or claimed to have been) in response to the story of Soddem in which God destroys the city after some of the townsmen attempt to rape an angel...Most of Leviticus is this way... rules written in response to earlier stories thus it says more about what the Hebrews of the time thought about God rather then God itself (presuming the existance of god, which is necessary for this discussion).

Interesting, so do you believe that god actually said what is written in Lev 20, or do you believe that the hebrews attributed these rules for living to their god?
The chapter starts with god telling Moses to read these penalties for disobedience to the Israelites...is it unfair to assume that that is what the chapter means, rather than the Hebrews making up the rules themselves?

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The Hebrews of Moses' time believed that Soddem was destroyed due to homosexual activity; however, what they paid little attention to was the fact that angels are non-sexual beings thus it is reasonable that the city was destroyed for the attempted rape rather then the homosexual bent of said attempted rape.

In actual fact, if you read Genesis 18 from verse 16 onwards, you will see that god had already heard 'accusations' about the sin of Sodom and Gommorah...so your theory about the city being destroyed because of an attempted rape of an angel is unnecessary, because god was already going to destroy the cities.
Interestingly, verse 21 states that the lord said he would 'go down to find out whether or not the accusations which I have heard are true'...kind of a strange thing a supreme deity to say! Shouldn't he already know?
What is even more ridiculous is that Abraham manages to talk him round to sparing Sodom (and Gomorrah) if he found 10 innocent people in the whole city!
Honestly, does this even remotely sound like the creator of the universe to you? Receiving a lesson in justice and fairness from a human being?

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Originally posted by RickyM Interesting, so do you believe that god actually said what is written in Lev 20, or do you believe that the hebrews attributed these rules for living to their god? The chapter starts with god telling Moses to read these penalties for disobedience to the Israelites...is it unfair to assume that that is what the chapter means, rather than the Hebrews making up the rules themselves?

My view on Leviticus is exactly what I stated earlier and you reiterated in your question... it is Moses (or someone acting under Moses' name... Aaron perhaps) crafting rules based on their interpretation of earlier Biblical events and other rules based on practical necessity/expediancy. While I am a man of faith I also understand that it is probable that much of the Bible (Old Testiment in particular) was writen in an attempt to legitimize the rule of man rather then to relate the revelation of God. The fact that many of the books of the OT were writen by kings/rulers/polititions certainly lends credance to that. Moses, for example, while being a prophet (presuming that much is accurate) was also charged with leading the Isrealites. Being a leader involves much more then does being a prophet alone. Moses had the additional duties of ensuring the cohesion of the tribe, maintaining order, and safeguarding his people from the many dangers they faced (like undercooked pork and infected foresikns). It is most probable that in order to simplify his life Moses would have ascribed rules that he was making in order lead his people to God, as believers will question God far less then they would the guy God chats with from time to time. Leviticus is a prime example of a book that was written by man as law ascribed to God for greater authority.

Is it unfair to assume that Lev. is actually the word of god... no, one may believe as one wishes; however, since much of what is in Lev. only appears in Lev. or is a derivative of earlier stories I believe that it's more likely to be the work of a man rather then the work of God.

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