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quote:

Originally posted by Yohan petition signed i strongly encourage others to do so.

nice edit

hey why did you find it insulting gummy

you clipped out the part where I quoted where the name Anas came from . did you skip it? my posting of that image was a satirical poke at his views.

Watched a few of the conspiracy videos. Anas, you need to stop declaring that you're trying to help us see the truth, and start posting the truth as you see it. No more videos put together with construction paper and VHS tapes, and no more dodging direct questions. Then you might convince people of your views.

Loved your "Ring of Power" video, but unfortunately, gluing pictures and names onto construction paper isn't exactly fulfilling the burden of proof. In that video it also declares that there is not 'one shred of evidence' of a King David ever existing, but a quick google search led me to three different articles about evidence unearthed in 1993(!!!). Specifically, tablets inscribed with "House of David" and "King of Israel" dated to around 10th century bce.

Given that the video made such an obvious, and easy to discredit error. I find it hard to believe many, if not all of the claims made in that video.

I was also unimpressed with your video about the Israel lobby. I don't find that it supports your argument at all, except to say that, indeed, America has a very powerful Israel lobby. Simply because a powerful lobby exists doesn't mean that Hamas and the Palestinians are innocent of the atrocities that they have committed.

The final video that I spent time watching was "Mind Control" to which I ask. So what? That video has NOTHING to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and everything to do with horrible actions undertaken during the Cold War.

Given that your videos are either fabricated conspiracy nonsense, or completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, and given that you've been unable to directly answer a single question posed to you within this thread, except to claim your disappointment, sorrow within, the questioner's ignorance/knowledge, and finally, given your inability to comprehend that Hamas/Palestine have committed their own atrocities, I put to you that you know NOTHING about this conflict, and until you prove otherwise, will continue to believe so.

PS: This time, please do better than construction paper and VHS tapes

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Anyways Sorry for wasting everyone's time with my so called extreme views, I just feel that nothing I can say is going to be taken seriously here. The discussion is far too shallow, I had hoped we could really delve into the real problems and issues for once. I hope you guys can sympathize with the situation a bit, and take it easy with your views. Help stop the occupation. I hope you realize that Israeli war plans are still dropping bombs on civilians as I type this. Take Care. Have good will.

Seriously can you really be that stuborn? The "real problem" is that you still can't get passed your own biased view. Forget about the so called occupation don't you get it your stuborness is your downfall.

The fact is both sides will never get what they want. I don't think that either the jews nor the palestinians get this. Your both hell bent on killing each other instead of realizing that the only solution is learning to live in peace. Neither of the parties has the sense to think is all this killing worth it? Who cares who was there first or who the land belongs to. Your faith and prejudices have led you to your demise. Only the dead see the end of war.

I don't even want to begin to get on the topic of religion. The truth is you both have some growing up to do.

It is sad that in this day in age there is so much senseless violence. I feel sorry for the young that are born into this stupidity and have to suffer.

Anas your still a kid so hopefully there is hope for you. Your views are misguided and your superiority complex is sad. As much as you think you know you need to keep your ego in check. Believe me you have alot to learn.

Since you like quotes so much I'll leave you with this one from one my favorite philosophers.

A smart man is a man who knows he is ignorant.

1. point for knowing who it is but no googling.

I only hope that all this killing will end and that one day you both can live in peace. Put your difference aside and learn compassion.
Stop trying to convince others who is right and teach tolerance and love.

Get it!

Yea the Isreal lobby vid has pratically nothing to do with the debate. It just talks about the influence of the Isreal lobby group on the american polititians, really.

Gonna watch the other ones as well.

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

I like the fact that between all the hurled insults, a few substantiated counter-arguments are refined. Good job

Yes yes we all need to grow up... how anyone could have missed such a viable peachy resolution is beyond me. Well peace is always the only solution isn't it.

On the other hand, I don't believe anyone at any point questioned whether the prospect of peace was cause worthy. The points of conflict are a) occupation, b) provocation and c) proportionality of force. Sure these trickled down into minute sub-argument, often dismissing what the debate is/should actually be about� but to discharge the exchange in its entirety and preach unity is preposterous as it avoids any of the issues at hand. As someone said, too much blood has been shed � let�s construct the path towards harmony (easier said than done) rather than declaring the end and evading the means.

i wonder how many people Maor Levi has killed so far.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Telling me to keep my ego in check?

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Wow man, honestly I don't even know what to say as none of the above is even close to true, I laugh at you and you "debate" style...

Quoted for irony.

Before you come back outraged.

You have made many solid points and before you lost your temper you had a decent outline for a debate. It's unfortunate you ran out of patience and have resorted to simply calling everyone who disagrees ignorant for not sharing your views and drawing the same opinions and conclusions from the media you have suggested.

I don't even understand what you're trying to prove/explain. Or what the argument is anymore.

Can you clarify your statements?

Make a table of statements (ie 1. to 10.) with examples, or make a single statement with points (ie 1. to 10.) of proof so we can analyze and reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Import Quoted for irony. Before you come back outraged. You have made many solid points and before you lost your temper you had a decent outline for a debate. It's unfortunate you ran out of patience and have resorted to simply calling everyone who disagrees ignorant for not sharing your views and drawing the same opinions and conclusions from the media you have suggested.

The thing is bro, I never called anyone ignorant, that's what they said I did, all I wanted was for people to step back for a second and take a look at the situation, to see it from another perspective even for a second. I did loose my temper I agree, but what am I to do when i'm being called names and the debate is ignored entirely. Anyways, just wanted to clear that up...again.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z I don't even understand what you're trying to prove/explain. Or what the argument is anymore. Can you clarify your statements? Make a table of statements (ie 1. to 10.) with examples, or make a single statement with points (ie 1. to 10.) of proof so we can analyze and reply.

How about you take a look at my earlier post that I had spent hours putting together. My position is simple, everyone needs to know more about the situation there, its not as simple as the media suggests. Its not just.. Good Guy and Bad Guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia How about you take a look at my earlier post that I had spent hours putting together. My position is simple, everyone needs to know more about the situation there, its not as simple as the media suggests. Its not just.. Good Guy and Bad Guy.

Everyone knows more about the situation and that it's more complicated than the media suggests. What do you think this is, high school?

If that was your point, then you wasted your time.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z Everyone knows more about the situation and that its more complicated than the media suggests. What do you think this is, high school? If that was your point, then you wasted your time.

Bro, not everyone knows whats going on there! where do you get that idea? That's the primary reason the problem isn't solved, because everyone is so Ill-educated on the issue.

Make the call

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Bro, not everyone knows whats going on there! where do you get that idea?

Let me outline the problem out for you.

The conflict is complicated and there are several layers of understanding of the conflict. Going from simplest to truest, they are:

1. The conflict they heard on tv
2. The historically accurate series of events that lead to the conflict
3. The third parties invloved and the reasons for the beginning of the conflict
4. The third parties involved and the reasons for continual violence

You are somewhere inbetween 2 and 3, while some people on this board are 2, few are on 1, but most are 3, and some on 3.5.

For you, you're assuming people are on 1 and 1.5, and when someone answers in 3.5 terms, it doesn't make sense to you, so you assume they dont understand. Hence the whole drama.

Makes sense now?

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia A quick example by the way in regard to conspiracy theories ..The 911 attacks as presented by the government is conspiracy theory, as it has not been proven. The 911 attacks as presented by countless documentaries such as loose change is also a conspiracy theory, however its backed by mountains of evidence.

"Mountains" of evidence, LOL. This post tells all.

I notice you are still ranting and raving, but I issued a response to you yesterday without any insults or strong language and despite several additional posts from you in the thread (clearly you must have seen the response by now), you have still failed to respond with any evidence to back up your point of view.

It's abundantly clear that you're letting your emotions cloud your judgment. You discount the reams of factual evidence establishing a historical occurrence and/or present pattern of behavior as mere unproven theories (side note: please learn what the word theory actually means), while paying rapt attention to the flimsy, loosely-connected threads that support your personal viewpoint. I really thought that 9/11 conspiracy theories had gone the way of the dodo by now, or at least been relegated to the fringe, and if you still believe what you read from those people then you clearly have a problem weighing evidence objectively.

Everybody is biased; nobody is immune. What's important for constructive debate is to be able to recognize your own biases, understand which side of the fence you're really on, and be able to confront your own preconceptions the same way you confront those of others. What you're giving us here is what is colloquially called the Ostrich Argument because it's equivalent to sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the outside world no longer exists or at least can't find you. There is strong evidence against your point of view and you continually either ignore it or attack the people who present it as ignorant bigots. This is not constructive and you won't succeed in bringing anybody over to your point of view in this way.

If a constructive or at least civil conversation is actually what you're after, then I suggest you go back through this thread and respond to the very reasoned arguments that several folks have made against you with your own reasoned, dispassionate arguments. Don't be defensive, don't be offensive, don't tell people to just read your posts, don't cloud your responses with emotion and melodrama. Just read, interpret, and present your case if you have one.

And as for this "petition", it boggles the mind that after more than 10 years of so-called "cease fires", there are still people who don't understand the concept of a hudna.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Z Let me outline the problem out for you. The conflict is complicated and there are several layers of understanding of the conflict. Going from simplest to truest, they are: 1. The conflict they heard on tv 2. The historically accurate series of events that lead to the conflict 3. The third parties invloved and the reasons for the beginning of the conflict 4. The third parties involved and the reasons for continual violence You are somewhere inbetween 2 and 3, while some people on this board are 2, few are on 1, but most are 3, and some on 3.5. For you, you're assuming people are on 1 and 1.5, and when someone answers in 3.5 terms, it doesn't make sense to you, so you assume they dont understand. Hence the whole drama. Makes sense now?

Firstly, im glad someone is finally forming a real argument, be it on the debate itself, nevertheless. I understand what your saying completely, its a balancing act as the internet is not some closed debate room but full of people that have different levels of understanding of the same subject. Having said that, I'm trying my best to cater to all with what I know, but I beg to differ that most people have somewhat of a clear understanding. Ive been debating this issue in many different forums both virtual and real and I can assure you that most people are still at the level of knowledge of which is gained from watching television and reading the newspaper. Some people in my university don't even know what Palestine is, let alone the knowledge of the issue.

Of course there are many who understand some of the intricacies at work here, they could have the same views or a have slightly different views. But when someone who claims they know it all, and then calls me names, it gets frustrating as the only reason i'm here is due to my passion of knowledge and the spread of knowledge. I'm a very sensible person who loves to take debate point for point, and if im ever proven wrong I take it 100%.

I'm glad you brought that up, as its the reason I cannot continue here, I'm getting attacked by those who know and those who don't in different ways, I cannot keep it up. Yet again I say this, but I really don't want to continue, but I feel obligated if someone asks or quotes me

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Bro, not everyone knows whats going on there! where do you get that idea? That's the primary reason the problem isn't solved, because everyone is so Ill-educated on the issue.

You just called everyone ignorant again.

now we have to blow this thread up to

anas, instead of posting over and over again about how no one is listening to what you have to say can you please state in point form what exactly you're trying to say here (without videos please)?

from what i gathered so far
1. its a one sided war
2. israel is building a wall around palestine
3. people are left with no water and supplies

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut

great post.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Again, you guys are missing all the points and the core issues i'm presenting. Calling me names, and further embarrassing yourselves. I said I no longer wanted to argue here as the debate is too shallow, but you ONLY insist on insulting me further. This is your way of debate, but it is not real debate, you guys are talking with emotion not reason. HouseGuru.... Why are you guys calling me stubborn? why do you say I have a biased views? Why do you tell me to forget about the so called occupation? Telling me to keep my ego in check? telling me to put MY difference aside and learn compassion? Stop trying to convince others who is right and teach tolerance and love? Wow man, honestly I don't even know what to say as none of the above is even close to true, I laugh at you and you "debate" style... not one point has anything to do with the issues, but simply to do with your views of me. I hope you see the problem with that.

Your laughing at me...your quite comical dude. Like I said your like a little kid that holds his breath till he gets what he wants. Poor me...I'm crying inside because they are bombing my people. Did you ever wonder why? Maybe its because the lunatics that are supposed to represent your people are firing missiles. Are you seriously defending these fanatics? The only way you could get back any credibility is to denounce these idiots that support terror and work toward educating your people that they are wrong. You say its not about religion but I don't believe it for one second. This whole tragedy was brought about because of it. Who are you trying to kid.

Grow up, its attitudes like yours that will prolong the killings and keep this stupidity going on. You would think that after decades of fighting you would learn that who is at fault is not important. No, you don't want that and neither do both parties involved. All you want to do is place blame on each other and prolong this stupidity.

I need to "address the real issue". Yeah right, feel sorry for your people who openly support idiots that send there own people out strapped with bombs to kill innocent people. Why because you don't want to live next to jews because its your land right. Give me a break.

You can runaway from this discussion and maybe that is the best thing for you. I can see now that you are incapabable looking at the situation without your biased view.

It is "you" that needs to take a step back and put your emotions aside. All your doing is convincing more people of how ignorant you are. So go stockpile your propaganda it makes no difference. You are a lost cause.

Pathetic, seriously time for a new strategy. Your passive agressive attempt to gather sympathy is not working. As you may have figured out we are not as simple minded as you think.

We see right through you and your propaganda, your not fooling anybody.

And for the record I have no interest in supporting either side. I have no emotional attachment to this issue nor do I care which side wins. The only winner in this should be peace.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Perhaps what he meant to say was that there was never an ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed. There was a general region called Palestine, but it was occupied by many different groups at many different times. The "Palestinian", however, is a new invention. Before World War II, the geographical area that is presently Palestine was very sparsely populated and had virtually no agriculture or production at all. Simply put, it was barren before the Israeli settlers fixed it up, and no natives complained when they started to develop the land. In addition, most Palestinians today are actually not historical natives, they are refugees from neighbouring Arab countries like Jordan (who systematically slaughtered them in order to push them into Israeli territory). There's been an area called Palestine for a while but not a state or nation. It was a generic name, like the "Middle East", and didn't refer to any specific commune or governing authority. As far as we know from recorded history, that area has just been scattered tribal villages or mere swamp hutches, which is exactly why the U.N. thought it would be a swell spot for Israel. Even the religious history, the Qu'ran, doesn't specifically mention a Palestinian people or state (to my knowledge, anyway). There may or may not have been one or more states of Israel on that land; it doesn't really matter. Either way, today's Palestinians have no more historical claim to the land than Israelis do. If you have it in your mind to ask for proof, then I'm sorry to say that the burden of proof is on you, because it is a logical impossibility to prove the non-existence of a thing. If you truly believe that Palestinians all belong to some ancient close-knit civilization then explain where you know this from. It's all beside the point anyway because this isn't a land claim, it's holy war. Unfortunately, Israel and most of the western world has a hard time understanding holy war, so they prefer to treat it as a land claim. That mentality may be convenient but it will never end the war.

Ok from what I gather here, you are saying there was no ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed.

OF course there was, at the current time it is estimated that 10 million Palestinians roam the earth. My family is one of them. Most of the Palestinians don't live in Palestine anymore obviously due to the "living conditions".

Palestinian territories: 3,760,000[1]
Jordan 2,700,000[2]
Israel 1,318,000
Syria 434,896
Lebanon 405,425
Chile 300,000
USA 67,842[11]
Egypt 70,245
Honduras 54,000[3]
Kuwait 50,000
Brazil 50,000[4]
Yemen 24,000[3]
Canada 23,975 (2006 Census)[5]
Australia 15,000
Colombia 12,000[3]
Guatemala 1,400[3]

If you want visit the following link to see who has taken over that area of land over the past couple of thousand years, doesn't matter who took it over, there is still a people called the Palestinians all throughout the conquests:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine


Now that you know there is a people called Palestinians (falsteenien)... lets talk history...

In 1947, the first real war in the region erupted and Israel starts to form.

The following map shows the territories as sanctioned by the U.N. (don't want to get into the U.N.'s Decisions here)



Here is the map before the sanctioning occured:




Here is a video that will clear up what has happened in 1947




Now, lets go back even further, and look at a map showing the region before Israel was sanctioned. Here is a map that shows before and after.

http://ok4ycw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1ptGUYZy98I3AKWGomm5hKvqZEZ4ubHWH9CaOyZ_2MiKe2TxNra2rbn5pzLPF1MUsODC3_bfa9eJvFlrjxfoESqKtkr4qg0xqZ?PARTNER=WRITER

You will see that the amount of space available to the Palestinians has shrunk, drastically... even after the sanction in 1947. It is still shrinking.

Please remember what the debate is about sir, its not about if palatinates existed.. its a human rights thing.. people are still being killed as I am typing this... its here, is now, and we need compassion not falls accusations. I don't have all day to prove every single word I say, after all this is TA, but I am trying, however none of you seem to bring up any sources or evidence in any of your arguments...

quote:

Originally posted by HouseGuru Your laughing at me...your quite comical dude. Like I said your like a little kid that holds his breath till he gets what he wants. Poor me...I'm crying inside because they are bombing my people. Did you ever wonder why? Maybe its because the lunatics that are supposed to represent your people are firing missiles. Are you seriously defending these fanatics? The only way you could get back any credibility is to denounce these idiots that support terror and work toward educating your people that they are wrong. You say its not about religion but I don't believe it for one second. This whole tragedy was brought about because of it. Who are you trying to kid. Grow up, its attitudes like yours that will prolong the killings and keep this stupidity going on. You would think that after decades of fighting you would learn that who is at fault is not important. No, you don't want that and neither do both parties involved. All you want to do is place blame on each other and prolong this stupidity. I need to "address the real issue". Yeah right, feel sorry for your people who openly support idiots that send there own people out strapped with bombs to kill innocent people. Why because you don't want to live next to jews because its your land right. Give me a break. You can runaway from this discussion and maybe that is the best thing for you. I can see now that you are incapabable looking at the situation without your biased view. It is "you" that needs to take a step back and put your emotions aside. All your doing is convincing more people of how ignorant you are. So go stockpile your propaganda it makes no difference. You are a lost cause. Pathetic, seriously time for a new strategy. Your passive agressive attempt to gather sympathy is not working. As you may have figured out we are not as simple minded as you think. We see right through you and your propaganda, your not fooling anybody. And for the record I have no interest in supporting either side. I have no emotional attachment to this issue nor do I care which side wins. The only winner in this should be peace.

You have proven to me that you don't care about the issue, I don't get what your doing here.

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