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lets put some creationist ideas to the test and try to figure out the solutions science has come up with.

I feel like no one else is contributing to this thread. Is everybody so concrete on evolutoin and not scheptical at all? Or are you scared that god might smite you for asking questions about creation.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit lets put some creationist ideas to the test and try to figure out the solutions science has come up with.

Knock yourself out:

http://www.trueorigin.org/

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit I feel like no one else is contributing to this thread. Is everybody so concrete on evolutoin and not scheptical at all? Or are you scared that god might smite you for asking questions about creation.

Its not that we know that evolution is 100% right but rather that creationism/ID is 100% wrong.

well that took the fun out of it didnt it?


could someone at least play devils advocate?

the trouble is the definitions that people maintain as to what their God is is a wishy washy matter in itself.

It's strange that both theory postulated whether it be 'creationism' or 'evolution' generally seem to remain porous in their arguments or proposals.

Yet both remain ultimately futile in their attempts to explain all things (except science has the slight advantage) over the gospel. I think the bible offers an explanation to some extent but fails in its approach to be time specific essentially in genesis. And, who said we were 2009 years old...lol God or Man, wait whos world are we in God or Mans. oh how silly'.

if you ask me someone is fucking with us and has been for some time".

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Originally posted by Moongoose Its not that we know that evolution is 100% right but rather that creationism/ID is 100% wrong.

of course.. but if you question science (which should be done) then you can further solidify theories and come up with new hypothesese and learn.

The atheist is just as bad and arogant as the fundamental creationist because primarily if 100% of the facts are unknown then how can one be so sure?

I feel like it's a bit silly for people who are not scientists to be questioning the theory of evolution when they do not even know the details of how it works.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I feel like it's a bit silly for people who are not scientists to be questioning the theory of evolution when they do not even know the details of how it works.

There's a great youtube video where that creationist dude posted earlier gets owned on his radio show by a biology grad student that phones in. The creationist goes.. "if I noticed that different suspension bridges had similar features would it be reasonable for me to assume that they had the same creator or that they had evolved from a common ancestor.. say a spiderweb?" and the biologist was like "buddy you've lost the plot, bridges and spiderwebs don't procreate or pass on genetic information so they can't be descendants of anything.. your analogy sucks balls"

Unfortunately the creationist doesn't even realise how badly he's getting owned.

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Originally posted by Energy_3 the trouble is the definitions that people maintain as to what their God is is a wishy washy matter in itself. It's strange that both theory postulated whether it be 'creationism' or 'evolution' remain porous in their arguments or proposals. Yet both remain ultimately futile in their attempts to explain all things (except science has the slight advantage). if you ask me someone is fucking with us and has been for some time".

Clearly the bible, torah and quran were man made. I would trust them as fact as much as greek mythology. In fact the greeks were more intelligent and creative with their works.


To say science has a slight advantage is ludicrous. REligion has no advantage with regards to facts. Which one is the right religion? there are tons of them! wit no basis or factual foundation. Simply fairy tails and constructive moral guidance which if not followed would lead to eternal repremand. Don't get me wrong, the bible is great. I would probably have my kids read it to learn morality (this is what seperates us from animals mentally).

But in this day and age to take something like that literally is insane. Would you rather fly a magic carpet and trust in blue genie or take an engineered 747?

the argument is analagous.


Now to doubt that essentially there is some sort of creator would be a bit arrogant in science since we have not tested that hypothesis yet with measurable evidence.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I feel like it's a bit silly for people who are not scientists to be questioning the theory of evolution when they do not even know the details of how it works.

Sure its ok to question. Albeit not knowing anything about it and just denying the facts presented is another thing.

If one is truly intrested in knowing the process, its fair to ask the question. I think thats the problem. Its not being taught properly in school so its dismissed at a very early stage.

ah i agree with you on everything you say. For me science is at the forefront thats for sure given its based on scientific methodology and like i said well the bible is merely fairytale based upon ones willingness to apply faith in the hope of a better place. Given they fuzzed this one up. its purpose like i mentioned before is ultimately the 'law of the land' to determine the course of mankind through the use of their mind.

From genesis and its interesting because depending on what version of the bible you read it varies slightly. But", i would love to know who's kind they are referring to

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind (is this referring to us), and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Even this is wishy washy with holes.

sure, lets write about how god made insects and molluscs and how they creepeth.

Sounds good to me. but those ******s aren't good. they'll eat you alive, or at least their ancestors would.

Freaks, watch this crazy shit. my girlfriend is latina and sometimes ihave to attend church with them. Damm that is a site the latinos are right into it, even though it was not primarily their foundation to begin with. Its interesting as well because John Locke in 'the essay of human understanding' makes reference to whether God or not is innate, and then he further goes on to mention the nature of ideas and how we must learn the idea of what God is before we can become to understand it. anyways good read that book. but basically he refutes the possibility of God being innate which ultimately christians seem to propose percussively.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit of course.. but if you question science (which should be done) then you can further solidify theories and come up with new hypothesese and learn. The atheist is just as bad and arogant as the fundamental creationist because primarily if 100% of the facts are unknown then how can one be so sure?

Every science is subject to question, thats whats so wonderful about it, no area is an untouchable dogma that stands as the absolute truth. Before being accepted everything, even the most basic things (such as 1+1=2) require proof that they are true.



As for the second part...one can only use the data that is available to him. Saying that, if one can claim that something is 100% true while basing that on a set of data, then if i prove that the reasoning behind that conclusion is wrong, based on the same set of data i can claim 100% that something doesnt exist. Case in point, based on the data in the bible, people claim that god exist 100%, however using science i can dismiss every one of the "facts" that are presented as proof for existence of god, therefore i can reasonably claim that god doesnt exist.

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Every science is subject to question, thats whats so wonderful about it, no area is an untouchable dogma that stands as the absolute truth

this is truly remarkable and imho what makes it so ruthless. it allows itself to be proven false. unlike the gospel its what it is take or leave it and if you leave it your destined for the shit heap.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit Don't get me wrong, the bible is great. I would probably have my kids read it to learn morality (this is what seperates us from animals mentally).

Morality? Seriously? Thats the one thing i would NOT want my kids to learn from the bible...unless you know, slavery, racism, senseless violence and stuff like that came back in style for some reason.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Morality? Seriously? Thats the one thing i would NOT want my kids to learn from the bible...unless you know, slavery, racism, senseless violence and stuff like that came back in style for some reason.

If it wasnt for religion we would still be neanderthal man.


Religion/ mythology/ belief is what made us emerge from the caves. To think ponder and philosophize life and a greater purpose allowed us to aspire and helped us build society as we see it today.

To live in a world of so many unknowns one must have some security in their purpose and being. Religion did that and now we have civilizations and governments that take heed to this role. To organize the masses of people.

i dunno i made it sound a bit dismal. but religion served its purpose to advance humanity. Overserved? thats definatley debatable.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit If it wasnt for religion we would still be neanderthal man. Religion/ mythology/ belief is what made us emerge from the caves. To think ponder and philosophize life and a greater purpose allowed us to aspire and helped us build society as we see it today. To live in a world of so many unknowns one must have some security in their purpose and being. Religion did that and now we have civilizations and governments that take heed to this role. To organize the masses of people.

I will not even try to guess how Neanderthals reasoning worked and how and/or if they grasped the concept of god. However i will argue that there comes a time where the concept of god becomes a hindrance to a civilization, and that time is when you start evoking the name of god to further your own political or social agenda. When youre able to reason with yourself that its not actually you who wants something but god working trough you, the point has come to drop the concept entirely or suffer the consequences. Sadly, thousands of years have past since the first man reason that to himself and we are still burdened by the concept of god, instead of being able to grow as a civilization in our own right.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit Religion/ mythology/ belief is what made us emerge from the caves.

the biggest thing that got man to leave his cave was that he was hungry.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the biggest thing that got man to leave his cave was that he was hungry.

lol yeah but they always came back

you need some sort of belief system (ill call it religion) to progress to civilization.

The Assyrians had it. The ancient egyptians had it, The romans and so forth.

I would agree with mongoose that when it is moreso used as a political tool to herd people it gets messy. The crusades, The Nazi's the taliban etc.

but if it wasnt for religion, the egyptians would have never made the pyramids. Michaelangelo would have never made his sculptures and shakespear was definatley a man of religion, his creativeness wouldn't have spurred in his time. We live in a scociety now where knowledge and progression and and capitalism is our religion. Law defines our moral standards but essentially we are raised and nurtured to be empathetic (or at least attempt to be).

So the concept of religion is still the same one. Some sort of motivation to be rational, humane and motivated. That is the world we live in now. Is there a god? who knows. We only know what we can perceive and visualize. I prefer to go with pascals wager in this case.


As organisms evolve through natural selection, so should our way of thinking guided by science (it is the structural foundation in which our society has been built on). We shouldn't be jaded by promises of 72 virgins, being the chosen race by god or praying constantly to reach the kingdom of heaven trying to convert people. Instead we should help our society progress and us as a species to become more civil.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the biggest thing that got man to leave his cave was that he was hungry.

Which reminds me, I hadn't had anything to eat for over 16 hours, time to venture outside this room and find something to snack on.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit lol yeah but they always came back you need some sort of belief system (ill call it religion) to progress to civilization. The Assyrians had it. The ancient egyptians had it, The romans and so forth. I would agree with mongoose that when it is moreso used as a political tool to herd people it gets messy. The crusades, The Nazi's the taliban etc. but if it wasnt for religion, the egyptians would have never made the pyramids. Michaelangelo would have never made his sculptures and shakespear was definatley a man of religion, his creativeness wouldn't have spurred in his time. We live in a scociety now where knowledge and progression and and capitalism is our religion. Law defines our moral standards but essentially we are raised and nurtured to be empathetic (or at least attempt to be). So the concept of religion is still the same one. Some sort of motivation to be rational, humane and motivated. That is the world we live in now. Is there a god? who knows. We only know what we can perceive and visualize. I prefer to go with pascals wager in this case. As organisms evolve through natural selection, so should our way of thinking guided by science (it is the structural foundation in which our society has been built on). We shouldn't be jaded by promises of 72 virgins, being the chosen race by god or praying constantly to reach the kingdom of heaven trying to convert people. Instead we should help our society progress and us as a species to become more civil.

Well, I didn�t really intend to get into this debate (especially since your knowledge far far outstrips my own) but it�s a quiet afternoon at work�.

I think the central issue I have with your post here is that there is an assumption that religion caused or created these things, when in reality is was merely the fact that religion was the governing ism of the pre-enlightened eras. I think there is an argument to be made that had religion never existed such great works of art or engineering could and would have been created, just with a different focus or motivation. Sure, the great tombs of the Egyptians were built because of their beliefs concerning the afterlife, but imagine what could have been created had they been motivated by other forces? When I see massively huge awesome church structures all I can think of is how much better that time, effort and money could have been spent. Sure, the pyramids are fantastic structures that everyone knows and loves, but take a minute to think of the thousands of peasants that had to build them; what positive role was religion playing for them? Hell, Yahweh thought it was fine for his chosen to slave away in Egypt for 400 years!

You rightly identify the fact that religious belief was the governing zeitgeist of the time, but do we praise Nazism for building the autobahns? Nazism didn�t build the autobahns, they just happened to be built during the (thankfully brief) era of Nazism.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Its not that we know that evolution is 100% right but rather that creationism/ID is 100% wrong.

Or rather, the presupposition that the cosmos is created by some ultra-intelligence is unprovable scientifically. What creationists fail to realize is that they are sporting a purely religious view but try to call it science.

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