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-- there is no such thing as progressive trance
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quote:

Originally posted by dj christian I think you can get your ears fixed. Though i base my assumption on pre 2005. I haven't even listened to progressive trance since 2002.

You've missed out on a lot of good prog trance man

Here is one from 2007. It is THE essence of prog Trance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaPoRzUb1Aw

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Probably because he's right, but not unconditionally. Epic house is a pet genre of Jack's, inspired by his love of two mid 90s progressive house albums that are similar in mood, theme and content: BT - Ima and Blue Amazon - The Javelin. I like these albums too. He has gone forth and through studious research, retconned several other tracks, artists and labels under this umbrella (most of them from Sasha & Digweed mixes), championing the genre through sheer persistence. While I am fairly ambivalent toward his efforts, I won't deny that within this makeshift genre one can find ample influences of both progressive house and progressive trance since all three were wholly owned subsidiaries of British club & rave culture at the time and most certainly influenced each other. This does not imply, however, that one came from the other as you asserted. Except "epic house" coming from both (but mostly progressive house). All three would be annihilated by the prog and anthem scene within a year anyway.

I like how, even when I can't read his posts, Matt is hanging in this debate by trying to turn us against each other, like a Japanese monster movie where scientists bring back Godzilla to wipe out some giant radioactive bee menacing cardboard Tokyo.

Since there is this recurring suggestion I completely invented epic house, I'm going to copy-paste an email I received a couple of months back from that most precious of sources: someone who was there at the time.

quote:

Hi Jack I just thought I'd contact you to say how impressed I am, that you have done your best to promote the old epic house scene I found a number of your posts on various forums, and I just typed epic house 1995 into google, and a number of your posts came up - I intended to try to find some music that I was not aware of at the time, but instead, found some very interesting posts by you, instead. I think I saw you say that at the time it started, you were only 7. Suprised anybody still likes this style as most just laugh at it I remember being into handbag when it hit (I'm not original prog type eg leftfield, though I like some guerilla stuff - not all). In 1995, sashas remix of bt - embracing the sunshine made no25 in the charts and commerical djs like pete tong were playing his stuff. It could be argued that epic house started in 1994, as that sasha remix was on plate for a lot of that year, and heard it was played at babelious. the orig of course was deeper sunshine from 1993, and bt has the credit for inventing the scene, but I see it as, the scene was invented on the back of the remix. So bt provided the parts, and sasha did that remix - the scene to me, started becuase of a remix- I credit sasha more as the start of it, but without bts sounds, the track wouldnt have started the scene - So they both created it between them really. Have most of the records from that era. Then came the bt mix of grace, and others such as the marco polo northen exposure mix. blue amazon are among my fav artists, but I like stuff like the jayn hanna - lovelight blue wave dub, and their mix of balgoua boys - everlasting gobstopper. others I like are fade, and their mix of pendulum - I need you, and boston bees - raise yoru hads, are some of my favs. The scene continued to 1997, and then everybody stopped it, as they were being laughed at Those who say that epic house didnt exist (that I saw at a thread you are started), are talking rubbish. In 95 that bt track came, and then people like pete tong and that mixmag artlice were using terms like epic house - I remember it was mixmag who also invented the term prog house, years earlier. I used to read lots of copies of dj, and even remember a article where nick warren said that progressive house was finished with, and nobody did it any more - type of thing. plus lots of those dj and mixmags had record reviews and epic house as the term used by most djs - progressive was a word out of vogue, for at least 2 years, until slacker - scared came along. I used to listen to judge and the jury on kiss, and clearly remember epic house being used a lot - I remember there was one where horse - brothers in rhythm mix was played, and a panelist said this was epic house with a start, middle and end, and as they hadnt heard all of it, they wouldnt give any points. the same show had slacker -scared, and the same panelist said this was progressive house - he said 'a scene created by journolists, for journolists, what was it all about?' - this was refering to past tense. he was saying what was the all those years of progressive hose about?. Sure enough, it was slacer - scared that brought the prog stuff back, and from sasha and digs saying, they liked any record by bt, it turned to they liked any record by slacker. by mid 97, it was almost over - seem to recall blue amazon doing a festival with no other love. Seem to recall sasha had done the brixton acadamy , and the act before had loads of people there, but when sasha came , 90% walked out. people were fed up of listening to 4 records in a hour. I still have loads of stuff that is from 97, but there was no more to come, basicaly - the era finshed I really liked reading all your posts re this subject, and also would like the era back, but it wont happen I saw you did a review of a recent blue amazon thing called jackpot reunion, and you said that a track was obscurely called awfd - It was called this as it stands for another winner for dinner - this was the jackpot slogan, and if you look at any of your hackpots in your box, youll find that scribed on most of them. I had some contact with lee a few months back about working with him - He liked my music I write, but since then a number of emails passed between him and me, there has been no contact since If you require any tunes, I might have them (from that era) - Some of my stuff is for sale, and I have a fair amount

It's not a direct transition from Prog House -> Epic House -> Prog Trance, because a lot of progressive trance producers were German, or had never made prog house, and a lot of prog house producers never went on to make progressive trance (Leftfield, Spooky, Underworld, React 2 Rhythm etc.) However, a lot of British producers - and more importantly, DJs - who had championed progressive house ended up championing progressive trance a few years later, and epic house was the period of cross-over. The simplest way I can illustrate is like this:

1993 (Progressive house):


1995 (Epic house):


1997 (Progressive trance):

^damn that email was from Ish himself? epic ownage

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Probably because he's right, but not unconditionally. Epic house is a pet genre of Jack's, inspired by his love of two mid 90s progressive house albums that are similar in mood, theme and content: BT - Ima and Blue Amazon - The Javelin. I like these albums too. He has gone forth and through studious research, retconned several other tracks, artists and labels under this umbrella (most of them from Sasha & Digweed mixes), championing the genre through sheer persistence. While I am fairly ambivalent toward his efforts, I won't deny that within this makeshift genre one can find ample influences of both progressive house and progressive trance since all three were wholly owned subsidiaries of British club & rave culture at the time and most certainly influenced each other. This does not imply, however, that one came from the other as you asserted. Except "epic house" coming from both (but mostly progressive house). All three would be annihilated by the prog and anthem scene within a year anyway.

beating around the bush much?

well you two are in complete unison based on his post above. regardless if that three-way link was as smooth as butter, progressive house gave birth to progressive trance, end of story. your post agrees, and system j and his plethora of dickriders agree too.

Matt, I've unblocked you because you insist on talking on my behalf, and I can still see all your bloody posts quoted anyway. And straight away - no that email was not from Ishkur, you fuckwit. It doesn't read anything like Ishkur in any way. It was from some random clubber who emailed me a few months back, someone who was there in the mid '90s. I posted it to definitively end this lingering suspicion that the term "epic house" was some minor little term I've picked up and inflated into a genre all on my own.

The best definition of "progressive" I've ever heard was actually on Ishkur's forum, but it wasn't from Ishkur, it was from a guy called Commander Deathguts. No idea if he posts on TA under an alias, but here it is:

quote:

Progressive is a scene rather than a sound. When it started, it involved taking the mainstream house sound of the time (lots of pianos and strings and vocals) and splicing in influences from dub, techno and the first trance records coming out of Germany - hence it was 'progressive' in the sense that it built on house with new accoutrements, just as 'progressive rock' took influences from folk, jazz, classical and early electronic music in the 1970s. The classic progressive DJs have maintained an impressive level of cohesion over the years as a group of individual artists and 'progressive', taking out the bullshit, has generally meant whatever Sasha, Digweed et al were playing at the time. In order, roughly speaking, this is - 'classic' progressive house, trance, darker techier trance, really dark tribal house, melodic twinkly house and breaks, electro-house, minimal techno. Given the incestuous nature of the scene, these have generally been distinguishable from the more 'orthodox' incarnations of their respective styles - the dark tribal stuff generally eschewed the camp tone of the tribal records popular on the New York gay scene, for example, and the 'minimal' stuff around at the moment tends to be highly melodic and twinkly as opposed to the burble-burble-click Hawtin sound. But there's nothing really to link it all together except a certain lineage.

quote:

Originally posted by Mattinsanity ahhh no wonder you've been mad at me since your first post. you were fasting from this site but I sucked you in this debacle. my bad you 33 year old mothercanucker. listen to it again nigga obviously this doesn't sound like a shokk or alphazone track, but that's because early hard trance sounded different. I don't give a fuck what anyone says - this sounds like some bootleg hard trance labeled as progressive trance. and LMAO @ THE ANTICLIMAX AT 4:36. evolution made some stompers but they also made some shitty tracks.

Seriously you stupid gook. How does that track remotely sound like anything by Shokk?

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 Seriously you stupid gook.

Honestly, I don't like the guy, either, but I limit that to his intellectual merit. This is just ugly and uncalled for.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Honestly, I don't like the guy, either, but I limit that to his intellectual merit. This is just ugly and uncalled for.

being called gook is nicer than nigga

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 being called gook is nicer than nigga

But he's not even Vietnamese and it's just so derogatory. Most Koreans make perfect fucking sense.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Honestly, I don't like the guy, either, but I limit that to his intellectual merit. This is just ugly and uncalled for.

LOL exactly. reading is essential.

and Rebel, you can use those racist words, but I honestly don't care. north korea is a fucking disgrace to koreans, and I'd get kicked out of south korea just for being black washed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mattinsanity LOL exactly. reading is essential. and Rebel, you can use those racist words, but I honestly don't care. north korea is a fucking disgrace to koreans, and I'd get kicked out of south korea just for being black washed.

So using "nigga" is not racist in any way? You can shove that mentality up your filthy ass.

^surprisingly enough, it isn't especially in 2011. the term ****** is the racist word. non-blacks use the word nigga to each other all the time now. would they say it to blacks themselves? of course not, but in a casual setting, non-blacks say nigga to other non-blacks.

and that word is censored, if you take out the A from nigg and add ER.

and if everyone wants to see me banned, I'll first have to threaten to cause bodily harm to someone in real life. that's how I got axed before.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker But he's not even Vietnamese and it's just so derogatory. Most Koreans make perfect fucking sense.

I don't know how this happened, but gook actually refers to Koreans. Hanguk and all.

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 I don't know how this happened, but gook actually refers to Koreans. Hanguk and all.

Don't you EVER fucking correct me in an open forum, again!

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J 1997 (Progressive trance):

I'm not really going to contribute much to this thread with this post except to say, fuck me that is an awesome remix

Lemon8 had something to say about this...

quote:

And remember; Progressive is a term invented by DJ mag. It�s never been a �sound. Progressive used to be about taking all styles from the history of house music and mix it all together. It is about diversity. I still do that in my sets and in the 8-Track Mind show. Why limit yourself? That�s regressive. Not progressive. There�s a lot to say about it though. The term �progressive� has been hijacked by trance too which gave it a bad rep. As soon as there was �progressive trance� � which is a contradiction in terms- people in progressive moved away from it.

and ironically, it was posted right here in the MD

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...&s#.UlWFFBCJoSk

Stop bumping this shit failed agenda in a desperate plea for attention, you lonely shit cunt.

Wow, what a sweet provocative comment in order to get a rise out of me. How fucking ironic to say I'm a loner when you need someone to argue with online.

Your 'progressive trance' mixes are hot overrated garbage by the way. I was lenient enough to not thrash it to death in my review.

No authoritative figure in EDM has EVER coined the phrase progressive trance. Prove me wrong you money back guaranteed prog elitist piece of shit.

quote:

Originally posted by 2techs No authoritative figure in EDM has EVER coined the phrase progressive trance. Prove me wrong you money back guaranteed prog elitist piece of shit.

This is from the January 1996 edition of Muzik Magazine. You know where to find it. Now shut the fuck up.

That's OBVIOUSLY epic house you dipshit. You even included that record in your EPIC HOUSE mix you fucking walking contradiction. Unbelievable.

I've always said epic house is a sub-genre of progressive that bridges progressive house and trance. As I said in my epic house thread:

quote:

This was the sub-genre that bridged the gap between the progressive house of the early 90s and the progressive trance of the late 90s, and is both housey and trancey in equal measures.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=0#.UlcDxFO2H_E

And clearly, music journalists in 1995 were calling it progressive trance.

The problem you have here is you're too dim to understand that these genre tags are not and never were scientific, and are ultimately just words people use to group music. The boundaries overlap, and the progressive/trance boundary has overlapped a lot over history, so a great many records could be considered progressive house, progressive trance, epic house or trance.

When people first get into this scene, they hear all these colourful genre terms being thrown around by grizzled veterans and they think the key to being knowledgeable about electronic music is mastering the genre terms. I've long since come to realise that those with real knowledge play around with the terminology to describe what they want.

By January 1996, the term Epic House had already been coined and BT was the leading man in the subgenre. I'm sure Muzik Magazine is a credible business, but whoever wrote that brief review lost some points by failing to mention Epic House to describe a 1995 BT record. The question I'm asking is if Dom Philips had anything to do with the creation or approval of the term progressive trance. He coined progressive house and friggin owned that term, so it makes sense if he would use the term progressive trance himself. If not, then I question the credibility behind the anonymous writer who coined progressive trance.

This is what Dom Philips said about GU 009:

"When Sasha finishes one of his special sets, people are liable to get emotional. You could call it trance. I call it magic.

he doesn't call it progressive trance - he just calls it trance, and this is supposedly the era that progressive trance was prevalent in the scene.

You're a fucking idiot. You just ignore everything that gets explained to you and replace it with inane shit like this. You'll quote some random TA from 11 years ago as your proof, and then question a fucking professional music magazine with 60,000 monthly readers as a "credible source". There's no point arguing with you. I could scan in the entire chapter from Simon Reynolds' book Energy Flash where he talks about "progressive trance" and you'll insist that Dom Phillips is apparently the only man allowed to invent the term.

Oh, and you can't even hear the trainwrecks in your own shittily recorded mixes, you fucking clown. Lord knows what disorder you're suffering from, but I don't know why we have to be your carers.

Of course I'm going to question a magazine who incorrectly describes a record. That was quite embarrassing for a professional magazine. You bash the tag epic trance and somehow give progressive trance a free pass like that tag isn't equally monkey crap in comparison. LOL @ Netherworld, Flaming June, and other standard trance tracks being considered PrOGreSsiVe TrAnCe.

I'm confident in my mixing abilities these days so I could give a rats ass if you allude to when I was just starting out.
Where were you to give a complete review for my '1997 progressive trance mix' earlier this year btw? You seemed to be MIA, fucking hater.

You're a piece of shit of a human being, honestly. Most of your activity consists of hijacking and insulting threads with your bitter, unnecessary bullshit, and I can't count how many times you've done that in my threads. Please fuck off.

Gold

Blah blah, every other post from Matt is either progressive trance this or progressive house that. Change the fucking channel already.

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