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quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard That is an entirely different thing. Good try though.

What is your assertion then? Can you or can you not be held responsible for what you ask others to do?

What is the difference between commands in writing and commands in speech?

quote:

Originally posted by Znack What is the difference between commands in writing and commands in speech?

For instance, your mother could communicate that she is a whore easily on paper with no breakdown in communications at all. She couldn't tell you herself because of the cocks in her mouth.

Get it?

quote:

Originally posted by Znack What is your assertion then? Can you or can you not be held responsible for what you ask others to do? What is the difference between commands in writing and commands in speech?

You actually think in fallacies of composition, don't you?

my phallus is pretty composed as well.

My girlfriend still won't let me root my droid.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Let's try another drastic misinterpretation of a famous piece of work, so that you can start making distinctions about where blame may be assessed and where it shouldn't. Charles Manson believed "Helter Skelter" was a call to start a race war. He then ordered his followers to "Get witchy with it" when, in two separate home invasions, they slaughtered white families and attempted to stage the crimes as though black people had done them. By your logic, the Beatles should have been brought up on murder charges.

Here we are talking again about the difference between normative and descriptive. It is actually quite simple: It is the same as the difference between giving an order and saying "this could be done."

When a general tells his soldiers' It is possible to kill people ", he is not responsible if they kill someone. If the same general says "Go out and kill people", he is responsible.

An author of a book (or song) about a murder is not responsible of the fact that some people are copying it - or even misinterpret it as an order, but an author of a book that tells readers what to do and where the author is aware that people will take it at face value, he is indeed responsible.

The Bible is not a historical narrative., At least not only. It is a collection of commands to the readers and the authors knew very well that it would be understood in this way, it was their intention.

I dislike all religions equally.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack What is your assertion then? Can you or can you not be held responsible for what you ask others to do? What is the difference between commands in writing and commands in speech?

The difference is not in the method but in the nature. A general gives commands and his subordinates are obligated to follow them; there is no such obligation with regard to the reader of a book. There is no master servant arrangement between a author and reader.

I'm going to drop this discussion now as I'm now entirely satisfied that you have been soundly defeated and you're down to grasping at straws that aren't even there. Maybe Eddy will keep going with you since he has more of an appitite for such arguments, I; however, don't wish to watch you flounder any further.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard The difference is not in the method but in the nature. A general gives commands and his subordinates are obligated to follow them; there is no such obligation with regard to the reader of a book. There is no master servant arrangement between a author and reader. I'm going to drop this discussion now as I'm now entirely satisfied that you have been soundly defeated and you're down to grasping at straws that aren't even there. Maybe Eddy will keep going with you since he has more of an appitite for such arguments, I; however, don't wish to watch you flounder any further.

But its incorrect. A soldier is free to refuse to obey orders, but he will in most cases, be punished for it. Like many Christians are "free" to disobey the Bible, but they think they will be punished for it. In every practical sense, they are forced to do so. That's what they believe themselves.

But alright, despite all your arguments have been refuted and all your claims have been proven wrong, I have been "defeated". Just your choice of words says everything I need to know.

Have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack Here we are talking again about the difference between normative and descriptive. It is actually quite simple: It is the same as the difference between giving an order and saying "this could be done." When a general tells his soldiers' It is possible to kill people ", he is not responsible if they kill someone. If the same general says "Go out and kill people", he is responsible. An author of a book (or song) about a murder is not responsible of the fact that some people are copying it - or even misinterpret it as an order, but an author of a book that tells readers what to do and where the author is aware that people will take it at face value, he is indeed responsible. The Bible is not a historical narrative., At least not only. It is a collection of commands to the readers and the authors knew very well that it would be understood in this way, it was their intention.

A comparison of military doctrine (i.e. a superior officer giving otherwise unjust or unlawful orders) to the Bible just doesn't hold water, particularly when you consider recent Judge Advocate General rulings which have ostensibly held subordinates to account for "following orders" (See: Abu Ghraib).

While I am no religious scholar, let alone any kind of anthropologist, I think it would be impossible for one of the Bible's authors to peer into the future and have any idea how his words, no doubt tortured through serial translation, would be construed, let alone the implications they would hold, today. Therefore, your second point fails.

Finally, while I really do respect the atheist point of view, at least where its true skeptical intellectual integrity is concerned, I haven't read any recent "God/anti-God" threads in the COR where atheists haven't continually painted religious people as dead-behind-the-eyes imbeciles whose faith is only symptomatic of their delusional magical thinking if not an absurdly sycophantic adherence to the arcane doctrines associated with it. Here you are attempting to find fault with the Bible by tenuously attaching the motivations for all manner of crime and pogrom as though what is necessary for man to commit evil is belief that he is justified through God's own will.

It's unfortunate that, while many atrocities have been committed with justification dispensed from those who filter scripture to suit their purpose, there are more pressing motivations for such perversions to take form in the first place. Without the Bible ever having existed, it's still likely that Fox News would still be suckering the gullible malcontents and their ossified confirmation bias with the verses of Ayn Rand. And your own course of action presents its quasi-biblical justification, as well.

What else is it, other than a pious lie (one must assume you mean well), that you would tell yourself to allow you to reduce your opponent down to a fundamentalist idiot in a gambit that practically screams with an ironic entitlement. Atheists, after-all, don't believe in imaginary beings nor do they adhere to cursed verses of scripture. Anyone who does should expect to find themselves measured only by the most mediocre yardstick you can imagine so that all of what they say may be similarly lampooned.

For those who place such faith in logic, one would assume that logic would suffice to justify your faith. Instead, when logic either fails on its own or (and more often based on what I've read in these parts) completely eludes your command, you resort to a series of logical fallacies including a veiled ad hominem in which the wisdom of using a Bible is questioned with a sharp-shooter's logical fallacy that counts only the misses.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker A comparison of military doctrine (i.e. a superior officer giving otherwise unjust or unlawful orders) to the Bible just doesn't hold water.

Unsubstantiated claim. Explain.

quote:

I think it would be impossible for one of the Bible's authors to peer into the future and have any idea how his words, no doubt tortured through serial translation, would be construed, let alone the implications they would hold, today.

I have never claimed that.

quote:

Here you are attempting to find fault with the Bible by tenuously attaching the motivations for all manner of crime and pogrom .

No i am not.

quote:

Without the Bible ever having existed, it's still likely that Fox News would still be suckering the gullible malcontents and their ossified confirmation bias with the verses of Ayn Rand.

Relevance?

quote:

What else is it, other than a pious lie (one must assume you mean well), that you would tell yourself to allow you to reduce your opponent down to a fundamentalist idiot.

I do not understand what you're trying to say here. Even if your claims about my opinions about the Bible were true, which they'r not, how would it in any way "reduce my opponent"?

quote:

Atheists, after-all, don't believe in imaginary beings nor do they adhere to cursed verses of scripture. Anyone who does should expect to find themselves measured only by the most mediocre yardstick.

Again, i do not understand at all what you are saying. Are you saying that I "adhere to" verses in the Bible? Or are you talking here about Christians?

quote:

For those who place such faith in logic, one would assume that logic would suffice to justify your faith.

Since I only have used logical arguments, and none of you have been able to argue logically against them, then your assumption has to be assumed to be correct.

quote:

you resort to a series of logical fallacies

Mention them.

quote:

including a veiled ad hominem.

Wrong again.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker

Fantastic post. Seriously. Especially this:

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker I haven't read any recent "God/anti-God" threads in the COR where atheists haven't continually painted religious people as dead-behind-the-eyes imbeciles whose faith is only symptomatic of their delusional magical thinking if not an absurdly sycophantic adherence to the arcane doctrines associated with it. Here you are attempting to find fault with the Bible by tenuously attaching the motivations for all manner of crime and pogrom as though what is necessary for man to commit evil is belief that he is justified through God's own will.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker A comparison of military doctrine (i.e. a superior officer giving otherwise unjust or unlawful orders) to the Bible just doesn't hold water, particularly when you consider recent Judge Advocate General rulings which have ostensibly held subordinates to account for "following orders" (See: Abu Ghraib). While I am no religious scholar, let alone any kind of anthropologist, I think it would be impossible for one of the Bible's authors to peer into the future and have any idea how his words, no doubt tortured through serial translation, would be construed, let alone the implications they would hold, today. Therefore, your second point fails. Finally, while I really do respect the atheist point of view, at least where its true skeptical intellectual integrity is concerned, I haven't read any recent "God/anti-God" threads in the COR where atheists haven't continually painted religious people as dead-behind-the-eyes imbeciles whose faith is only symptomatic of their delusional magical thinking if not an absurdly sycophantic adherence to the arcane doctrines associated with it. Here you are attempting to find fault with the Bible by tenuously attaching the motivations for all manner of crime and pogrom as though what is necessary for man to commit evil is belief that he is justified through God's own will. It's unfortunate that, while many atrocities have been committed with justification dispensed from those who filter scripture to suit their purpose, there are more pressing motivations for such perversions to take form in the first place. Without the Bible ever having existed, it's still likely that Fox News would still be suckering the gullible malcontents and their ossified confirmation bias with the verses of Ayn Rand. And your own course of action presents its quasi-biblical justification, as well. What else is it, other than a pious lie (one must assume you mean well), that you would tell yourself to allow you to reduce your opponent down to a fundamentalist idiot in a gambit that practically screams with an ironic entitlement. Atheists, after-all, don't believe in imaginary beings nor do they adhere to cursed verses of scripture. Anyone who does should expect to find themselves measured only by the most mediocre yardstick you can imagine so that all of what they say may be similarly lampooned. For those who place such faith in logic, one would assume that logic would suffice to justify your faith. Instead, when logic either fails on its own or (and more often based on what I've read in these parts) completely eludes your command, you resort to a series of logical fallacies including a veiled ad hominem in which the wisdom of using a Bible is questioned with a sharp-shooter's logical fallacy that counts only the misses.

quote:

Originally posted by Lews what a condescending douchebag

he gave one of, if not the realist description of evil in people.
let's say he took all the thoughts that a person has ever thought of and presented them on an overhead or some type of screen in front of a group of people. while the scenes are being shown, the group would be so horrified while the person would run out of that room and never show his face again. why? because he has thought things so wicked and so perverse that if his own friend saw the overhead, his friend would never be that person's friend again.


his point is, God is good, and men are evil. that's why I believe in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. there's just no remedy for my sins other than him.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack Cherry-pick, parse & dither.

I shouldn't have to explain the features of your own metaphor and your lack of understanding about how my points apply to your arguments does more to contradict your own arguments than it does to counter mine.

EDIT:
holy fuck, if that still frame isn't the most annoying one of recent history, I'm not sure what is. gets more annoying in motion though.

quote:

Originally posted by psymon.d EDIT: holy fuck, if that still frame isn't the most annoying one of recent history, I'm not sure what is. gets more annoying in motion though.

These videos are just ridiculous. Dawkins wouldn't be able to hold his own against serious scholars and intelligent christians, not people like this way-out airhead woman.

EDIT: and that camera work is abysmal.

Amen brother!

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ serious scholars and intelligent christians

where have they been hiding out these days?

quote:

Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ Dawkins wouldn't be able to hold his own against serious scholars and intelligent christians, not people like this way-out airhead woman.

Not that this sentence makes much sense, but do you have anything to back up the first part of it with?

quote:

Originally posted by psymon.d where have they been hiding out these days?

You can often catch such debates on BBC Radio 4.

I really recommend authors like Paul Davies et al. Be wary of books by Christian 'Scientists' though. Some of them are just absurd and downright embarassing.

quote:

Originally posted by Redd Not that this sentence makes much sense, but do you have anything to back up the first part of it with?

I really can't be bothered to type up paragraphs from his books, but you can be assured that he churns out the same, repetitive BS in every, single, book. Read one, you've read 'em all. When you compare his works to those of the calibre that Dawkins would have himself believe he IS, the woeful ineptness and bigotry of his work is revealed, especially in TBWM. He's a one-trick pony, and setting up for a debate against some dumb blonde bimbo is nothing short of a unfair argument. It's ridiculous at best.

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