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all i have to say to u euro guys
stfu! until u come here and live amongst us even for a month u will never understand what were going through
u will never understand us so dont try and just leave us alone
we never asked for anything of u
not sympthy for sure coz we already know whats ur comment to that

Ahhh, I'm sick and tierd of reading / posting and arguing with u guys about the subject.

-peace out

quote:

Originally posted by DjChook Ahhh, I'm sick and tierd of reading / posting and arguing with u guys about the subject. -peace out

I Think I'll do the same

yeah, me too..

it's interesting how these threads turn out, they just prove that both sides have good points, and the argument rages on forever.

just like israel and palestine i guess..

*sigh*

Oh yeah, here it comes, those super-nationalist, god oh god...first of all, I say this: I can understand your opinion, I really can, and thats the sad part. Because its somehow human nature. I can also understand the Palistinian side. Some members of my country would say the same if it happens to them, it has nothing to do with nationality, its just a human thing. But its false, im sorry its, and its lead to no peace. You (as Israel) have two possibilities if you ever want to live in peace: 1. Two states with a straigt frontier line (no setllement points in palestinian territories!) and a "no-entry" for jews in Palestina as well as a "now entry" for Pali in Israel, two sovereign states with the same rights (as same right to use the water in the region!!) and hard frontiers. 2. Just clean Israel, wEst bank, Gaza from Palistinians and then make a stronge frontier and fight against the other arabs who will harm you! But if you consioder the later part a solution, now then its something not right with youer head.

so for you who thinks that Israel has nothing to do with the conflict: Please explain why there are enforced and suvented settlement in the palistinian regions which are secured by the israeli army, I want an answer to that question!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Blik I believe that there must be a reason that the Middle-East hates Isra�l and supports the Palestinians, and it is not because America supports Isra�l... and that movie is just plain dumb

Maybe because most of the middle east countries are of the same religion as the palestine's and feel they are being taken advantage of..maybe because israel was able to form a state...unlike palestine..

.

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quote:

Originally posted by cweb Oh yeah, here it comes, those super-nationalist, god oh god...first of all, I say this: I can understand your opinion, I really can, and thats the sad part. Because its somehow human nature. I can also understand the Palistinian side. Some members of my country would say the same if it happens to them, it has nothing to do with nationality, its just a human thing. But its false, im sorry its, and its lead to no peace. You (as Israel) have two possibilities if you ever want to live in peace: 1. Two states with a straigt frontier line (no setllement points in palestinian territories!) and a "no-entry" for jews in Palestina as well as a "now entry" for Pali in Israel, two sovereign states with the same rights (as same right to use the water in the region!!) and hard frontiers. 2. Just clean Israel, wEst bank, Gaza from Palistinians and then make a stronge frontier and fight against the other arabs who will harm you! But if you consioder the later part a solution, now then its something not right with youer head.

I dont doubt everyone belives that eventually there will be two countries side by side, thats obvious. There was a chance for that to happen as well. but it will not happen agian until the palestinian authority is responsible enough to enforce measures so that no terrorism will be launched agianst israel - that is a pre-cursor to all negotations. so far they have failed to show such responsibility. i hope you can see through all the examples given (direct indoctranation of hate vs. media propoganda, killing of innocent lives vs. hendrence on lives - ie curfews, and many more) that israel does deserve the upper hand. they are not EQUALLY desrving of blame, one side desrves harsher blame then the other. terrosism is rampant and the IDF is in there now inorder to ensure defense for the average israeli civilian, as someone said they could easily over-run and do as they please in the terratories, they dont, proving that their intentions are only to defend israel, a right granted to every country in the world. only under new palestinian leadership which will stop those fantaicals who seek to destroy the entire nation of israel (and yes they exsist in higher numbers then one would like to admit) and do everything to eradicate terroristic ways will peace finally be attainable. and this is where i hold every palestinian accountable, they should not allow their own government to be corrupt and use unjust (terror) means to achive their goal, they should rise up the authority and seek on that is willing and striving for TRUE peace, not one played out on the streets.

a couple side notes...
*earlier i said ossama is praticaly dead, i mean in all reality he is as good as dead. there are covert operations seeking him out where he would be spending most his energy just on hiding. if he were planning something now, intellegence would be all over any communtations they are up to. they've baiscly got the ghost man with a strangle hold.
*johnsmith, it may be hard to belive but ya the media in israel isnt as baised as you would think, it does not feed hate or any nonsense like that. there are many views being brought up in the media, most of whom i dont not agree with (left ideology). It is free to report objectivaly, unlike the media in palestian which is controlled by the authority and terror organizations. that is a big distinction to make when trying to decide with side is deserving of more blame.

btw geutag I hope you serve our country to the best of your ability, i am proud of you!

Any of you interested in knowing to which extent Israel's media is impartial... check out israel's 3rd biggest daily newspaper haaretz
www.haaretz.co.il (also available in its english version)

Critisizm is positive by the way, as long as its productive and not just for the sake of "bashing" a certain side.

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quote:

Originally posted by guetag it's not maybe

then what is it..

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Yet heres the laugh, any palestinian who was driven out of their home in 1948 has no right of return. They arent called refugees for nothing. They were driven out of their land by force. THis is a fact. Those that deny the truth of what actually happened to the Arabs are applying the same logic as the neo Nazis who deny there was a holocaust. In all the negotiations between the Arabs and Israelis the one thing that was never on the cards, a right of return for the displaced peoples of 1948. And why might that be? Because to accept a right of return of the palestinians is to accept that a fundamental crime was committed against the arabs in the name of Zionism.

agian, where do you come up with these lies, no one was forced to move, indeed there are 1 million arabs now living in israel proper that decided not to move. Had the arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent Arab state would now exsist beside israel. the responsibility of the refugee problem rests with the arabs.

quote:

And then people on this board have the audacity to condemn palestinians for being indoctrinated into believing that martydom is glorious.

thats the thing that most pisses me off about foriegn opinion (in gerenal). Blowing up yourself in the middle of a crowded shopping mall is never accepted, rationalized or justified. i dont care how freaking pissed you are or how many generations you've been caring this hate, nothing should ever come to outright terrorism.

quote:

I would do WHATEVER it takes to get the land back

thats what im talking about, for all i care your peice of land is waiting for you in hell

hehe couldnt resist, excuse me guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy ... thats what im talking about, for all i care your peice of land is waiting for you in hell hehe couldnt resist, excuse me guys.

does all this bickering even help anyone, anywhere, with ANYthing? its just the 2 extremes refusing to acknowledge each other. there are a few decent debates, but they will never end...especially with cheez ball remarks like above...

way to keep the 'flames' burning|

Izzy do you condemn the jews who made terrorists acts against germany in WW2 (such as derailing trains) ? i bet you don't condemn and you'll never condemn them , but surely you don't care about the others or "how freaking pissed you are or how many generations you've been caring this hate, nothing should ever come to outright terrorism" , it's "only the palestinians after all, for all you care their peice of land is waiting for them in hell" ... see this is very outrageous , it shows as well that there's a big majority in israel that doesn't want peace whose only wish is to "throw these arabs in the sea" ...

Taha, do we really need indirect comparions with the Nazi Regime... ?

Is this an ethic discussion here? Under the topic: When is violence (and in its organized form: Terrorism) justified ? Sounds interesting. Well, I think we all agree that violence should be the last resort in solving conflicts. The Palestinians claim that they're deprived of their right for an independent State Palestine ? The Israeli semi-occupation (or, when loooking at the control of the population itself, not the lands: the life under a corrupt regime, using donations rather for military than for economic purposes) is the Palestinian People's confict. Has a diplomatic way to solve it been offered? Yes, see Camp David talks, July 2000, and later...Januray 2001, Taba. But then again, every1 who's been following the developments know this. Israel has made it clear again and again that it does acknwoledge the Palestinian desire for independence and self government and that it will do its best to reach an agreement on that issue- PROVIDED(!) that Terrorism wil be 1, condemned, 2, ceased 3, fought againt, 4, earased. So in fact its the opposite of what you're trying to state. Terrorism is not a consequence of non-existing efforts for a peaceful solution, but is the the biggest obstacle on the way to the latter.

Just thought this might interest some of you Israeli radicals.
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=846
Is he an anti-semite too?
And here is the definition of the word semite:
'A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.'
The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.
And who ever is going in the army to 'protect their nation', i hope you have fun murdering innocent palestinian boys who go out of their houses to get water.

quote:

Originally posted by MoSH_MaN So chill plz and don't flame us! all you Anti-Semi

Your post indicates that your temper makes you unfit for parttaking in discussions on complicated subjects such as this, and most of your claims don't deserve time spent answering/countering them. The quoted statement, however, really infuriates me. It is *so* stupid to use power words such as this to insult people who are critical of the way the Israeli government is handling the Palestine vs. Israel issue. Anti-semitism is something entirely different and something very awful, and if you use it carelessly for this and that, you will eventually water down every bit of meaning from it, effectively rendering the attrocities of the past seem as minor issues to future generations.

It's the same as calling an employer who has fired a black person a racist. Perhaps it is initially satisfying, as it liberates you from considering if the guy has a point/good reason, but it leaves you with little trenchancy when debating about ku-klux-klan.

Concerning: anti-semitism, anti-judaism, anti-zionism, Israel critcism.

Firstly, Im not a big fan of the whole "semite" definition. Im not sure, but as far as I remember it were the Nazis who invented their sick ideology of ppl belonging to certain "tribes", Arians on the one hand, Semites (including Jews and Arabs)on the other hand for example. The word anti-semitism is as old as those ideologies are. It's describing the hatred of Jews (and them only) not out of religious reasons (anti-judaism: as it has been before, see "they were crucifying Jesus" accusations) but out of racist ones. The Jews as a "worse people". Anyway...thats the historical aspect of it..

Zionism is basically the ideology and political movement aiming for an independent Jewish state. Why? The growing anti-semitism at the turn of the cenury in Europe (where assimilation surprisingly lead to a reverse effect!) and the never ending wish to return to the historic and spiritual homeland in israel.
The question is: Is some1 who openly denies this right for Jewish independence a Jew-Hater? Of course if he at the same time accept other nations, admitting that he distuigishes between an English desire for self-gobvernment and a Jewish one.

What is an Israel- critic then? You'll be shocked..but..he's an Israel critic in the same way as he is for example and USA or Zimbabwe critic. Israel must be seen and judged as any other country on the planet but unfortunately that isn't the case. Many ppl dont take their time and deal with the conflict's history but immediately side with the underdog and bash one-sidedly---> destructive criticsm. In most of the cases its the intellectual laziness and not the anti-semitic background which leads to such biased unprofound attitudes.

Conclusion... Feel free to crisice every1 and everything but THINK before you do it.

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 Izzy do you condemn the jews who made terrorists acts against germany in WW2 (such as derailing trains) ? i bet you don't condemn and you'll never condemn them , but surely you don't care about the others or "how freaking pissed you are or how many generations you've been caring this hate, nothing should ever come to outright terrorism" , it's "only the palestinians after all, for all you care their peice of land is waiting for them in hell" ... see this is very outrageous , it shows as well that there's a big majority in israel that doesn't want peace whose only wish is to "throw these arabs in the sea" ...

maybe there was a missunderstanding, yes i belive someone who does "whatever" it takes to achieve thier goal desrves to go to hell, a palestinian or anyone that matter (baruch goldstien - an israeli, saddam, ossama) who commits inhuman acts of terrorism deserves nothing of this world. there are more civil ways to go about doing business. i did not mean or say that the palestinians land is waiting for them in hell but rather those few individuals who do "whatever" it takes need to go there. and yes there is a disctinct difference in your case. jews were derailing tracks, but i wouldnt call it terrorism, they were committing acts of war with the intent of stopping the war machine of the nazi empire. to bring down shipments of soldiers, arms and weapons - not innocent civilians

I have two words for those who deny the truth of what happened in 1948


DEIR YASSIN

quote:

Originally posted by rupert I have two words for those who deny the truth of what happened in 1948 DEIR YASSIN

do you even know what were talking about?

just something to Izzy:

I agree with you that the suicide bombings have to stop and are cancer for negotiations. Now please explain the jewish settlements in Gaza/Westbank to me!

quote:

Originally posted by cweb Now please explain the jewish settlements in Gaza/Westbank to me!

Would u believe if i say "move them out".

There r not representive of Israel, Israel didn't put them there to make the palestiniens ppl angry...

Most of them r there becuase of religious.

I think that if the palastinies (sorry for my bad typing - its late)
would have come to israel with prove or facts, that they r willing to behave as humans, and not try to kill our women / children, or just citizens.

I believe that its not that of a problem to move the settlements in the palastiens cities.

But u have to remember one thing,

Its basicly Israeli teritory...

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