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quote:

Originally posted by occrider Sigh ... Nessa, Nessa, Nessa. If you could understand the point MisterOpus is saying you would realise that he's not saying that God is against you. He just proved, with your unwitting help, that by taking those passages from Leviticus and by taking your passage from Psalms that the bible has CONTRADICTIONS. It cannot be made any clearer than that. If you are hurt by MisterOpus's references from the bible, why are you taking offense to him? He's only quoting the good book therefore you should take offense to the bible, the bible ... the bible! THE BIBLE! THHHHEEEEE BBBIIIIBBLLLEEE! BIIIIIBBBLLLLLEEEEE!!! Hopefully that's enough repetitions.

Let me kindly say,Just shut the heck up. Ok? I don't want to hear anything from you right now. Yea, I'm probably going to apologize for this later,but right now I frankly don't care. Do you understand anything? Because it sure doesn't seem like it right now, Drop this debate crap for one minute and think about someones feelings. Did you really think that him and you posting those verses and both of you mocking them was going to be fun for me? Of course not, but to go in and start in on my health.You have NO idea how hard this is for me right now, It's taken 2 Years of my life away. 2 years I'll NEVER get back. I can't do anything, I'm trapped right now until this illness is cured,and you know the problem about that? There is no cure.
I said so many times not to get personal,now didn't I? I said it for a reason.

I'm not offended by the Bible,I'm offended that someone would do something like that. You want some more salt to rub in that wound? Do you?
Until you understand how it is to be ill this long,or even to be ill with something like this, You need to keep your mouth completely shut about it. Because you have NO idea, you just have NO idea.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Let me kindly say,Just shut the heck up. Ok? I don't want to hear anything from you right now. Yea, I'm probably going to apologize for this later,but right now I frankly don't care. Do you understand anything? Because it sure doesn't seem like it right now, Drop this debate crap for one minute and think about someones feelings. Did you really think that him and you posting those verses and both of you mocking them was going to be fun for me? Of course not, but to go in and start in on my health.You have NO idea how hard this is for me right now, It's taken 2 Years of my life away. 2 years I'll NEVER get back. I can't do anything, I'm trapped right now until this illness is cured,and you know the problem about that? There is no cure. I said so many times not to get personal,now didn't I? I said it for a reason. I'm not offended by the Bible,I'm offended that someone would do something like that. You want some more salt to rub in that wound? Do you? Until you understand how it is to be ill this long,or even to be ill with something like this, You need to keep your mouth completely shut about it. Because you have NO idea, you just have NO idea.

When all else fails...change the topic.

Thats basically what you are doing...theve proved you wrong countless times, and you fail to understand that the Bible is filled with contradictions.

P.S....God DOESNT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King When all else fails...change the topic. Thats basically what you are doing...theve proved you wrong countless times, and you fail to understand that the Bible is filled with contradictions. P.S....God DOESNT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!

What a loser..

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King When all else fails...change the topic. Thats basically what you are doing...theve proved you wrong countless times, and you fail to understand that the Bible is filled with contradictions. P.S....God DOESNT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!

Blasphemy, everyone knows his holineness lord cookie monster will return

Edit: Nellie edited her post, the original: "you are a sore loser" addressed to Cyrus

so Nellie is this the 14th debate you have won on the internet?

So all this is turning out to be is mocking God. Yea,that's trampling all over the first amendment, I don't pick on your beliefs,so I'll ask you,Don't pick on mine.

this is like a bad Real World where someone is accused of racism so they say they were raped...damn thats confusing|

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Let me kindly say,Just shut the heck up. Ok? I don't want to hear anything from you right now. Yea, I'm probably going to apologize for this later,but right now I frankly don't care. Do you understand anything? Because it sure doesn't seem like it right now, Drop this debate crap for one minute and think about someones feelings. Did you really think that him and you posting those verses and both of you mocking them was going to be fun for me? Of course not, but to go in and start in on my health.You have NO idea how hard this is for me right now, It's taken 2 Years of my life away. 2 years I'll NEVER get back. I can't do anything, I'm trapped right now until this illness is cured,and you know the problem about that? There is no cure. I said so many times not to get personal,now didn't I? I said it for a reason. I'm not offended by the Bible,I'm offended that someone would do something like that. You want some more salt to rub in that wound? Do you? Until you understand how it is to be ill this long,or even to be ill with something like this, You need to keep your mouth completely shut about it. Because you have NO idea, you just have NO idea.

Look Nessa, I apologize if you were hurt by my remarks, but I'm going to be extremely blunt with you. First of all, neither MisterOpus nor myself were arguing to spitefully hurt you. If that was the master plan all along we could have resorted to attacks flamming you personally, calling you a moron, calling your beleifs rediculous, etc.... and if what you think has been going on was just that, than you couldn't be farther from the truth. It was stated numerous times that if you have your own personal beliefs, it was respected so long as you kept them to yourself or wished no desire to argue about them. Instead, you come into this thread, proclaim Marco-evolution is false and continued argument, after argument, after argument, until finally, you become hurt that we're questioning one of your rationalizations to support your arguments, and then you insinuate that the whole plan all along was to get you, we're insensitive, etc. That would be like me, going into a church, and screaming at the top of my lungs that I don't beleive in God, and then expect everybody to respect my beliefs and not argue with me. Secondly, this is a debate forum, if you didn't expect for people to have the same persistence to stay in the argument until the bitter end then I have no idea what you were thinking coming here to begin with. If you didn't want to argue, why did you post? If you didn't expect us to begin questioning all of your arguments why did you continue the discussion over and over again? I'm simply perplexed by your behaviour ...

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 So all this is turning out to be is mocking God. Yea,that's trampling all over the first amendment, I don't pick on your beliefs,so I'll ask you,Don't pick on mine.

The first amendment is the freedom of speech, not to respect one's beliefs.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Look Nessa, I apologize if you were hurt by my remarks, but I'm going to be extremely blunt with you. First of all, neither MisterOpus nor myself were arguing to spitefully hurt you. If that was the master plan all along we could have resorted to attacks flamming you personally, calling you a moron, calling your beleifs rediculous, etc.... and if what you think has been going on was just that, than you couldn't be farther from the truth. It was stated numerous times that if you have your own personal beliefs, it was respected so long as you kept them to yourself or wished no desire to argue about them. Instead, you come into this thread, proclaim Marco-evolution is false and continued argument, after argument, after argument, until finally, you become hurt that we're questioning one of your rationalizations to support your arguments, and then you insinuate that the whole plan all along was to get you, we're insensitive, etc. That would be like me, going into a church, and screaming at the top of my lungs that I don't beleive in God, and then expect everybody to respect my beliefs and not argue with me. Secondly, this is a debate forum, if you didn't expect for people to have the same persistence to stay in the argument until the bitter end then I have no idea what you were thinking coming here to begin with. If you didn't want to argue, why did you post? If you didn't expect us to begin questioning all of your arguments why did you continue the discussion over and over again? I'm simply perplexed by your behaviour ...

I didn't think it was intentional. Of course I didn't think you were coming here to personally attack me,or anyone else for that fact,that's what bothered me about that post.

No, it's not the debate about macro evolution or even religious debates that bothered me. Really, Debates are debates,they don't personally bother me. I came here to debate, and that's what we've been doing so far.

It's just when people start on the topic of illness,especially when they are speaking about the illness I have. That hurts.
( I do hope you understand what I'm saying.)

quote:

Originally posted by occrider The first amendment is the freedom of speech, not to respect one's beliefs.

That's not the part of the first amendment I was referring to.

Boy am I glad I stayed out of this one!

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 That's not the part of the first amendment I was referring to.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So which part of it were you referring to?

MrS

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Let me kindly say,Just shut the heck up. Ok? I don't want to hear anything from you right now. Yea, I'm probably going to apologize for this later,but right now I frankly don't care. Do you understand anything? Because it sure doesn't seem like it right now, Drop this debate crap for one minute and think about someones feelings. Did you really think that him and you posting those verses and both of you mocking them was going to be fun for me? Of course not, but to go in and start in on my health.You have NO idea how hard this is for me right now, It's taken 2 Years of my life away. 2 years I'll NEVER get back. I can't do anything, I'm trapped right now until this illness is cured,and you know the problem about that? There is no cure. I said so many times not to get personal,now didn't I? I said it for a reason. I'm not offended by the Bible,I'm offended that someone would do something like that. You want some more salt to rub in that wound? Do you? Until you understand how it is to be ill this long,or even to be ill with something like this, You need to keep your mouth completely shut about it. Because you have NO idea, you just have NO idea.

I still love you.


But you have to understand that imposing your beliefs on other people through the mechanisms of government is wrong, and unAmerican.

You respect my right to believe as I wish, and I respect yours.

Deal?

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 It's just when people start on the topic of illness,especially when they are speaking about the illness I have. That hurts. ( I do hope you understand what I'm saying.)

I so wanna give up .... sooooo wanna give up.

Nessa, he wasn't speaking ill about your illness. He was saying don't place blind faith in everything the bible says, especially literal interpretations. In as much as it says homosexuals should be put to death, it also says those who have "blemishes" or infirmaties are somehow "less" than those who have none. This is especially applicable to you, in as much as the other passages are applicable to homosexuals. As a matter of fact YOU quoted the bible saying homosexuality made those people inferior, just like MisterOpus quoted the bible saying that those who are ill are inferior. And YES there are plenty of homosexuals that visit this forum that would take offense. Yet the difference, Nessa, was that MisterOpus was doing it to make a point rather than really believing in it, and you had the audacity to be offended by behaviour that can be likend to your own. I'm sorry but the hypocracy of the whole situation doesn't really engender much sympathy in me.

Now, Nessa, I am sorry for your illness, but you have to accept that the bible was written by men who were influenced by the social standards of their time. So yes, people at the time thought sick people were less worthy, and it reflected itself in the bible. Now, nobody is attacking your beliefs as a christian, but you must accept that the bible doesn't make any sense if it is taken literally, especially the old testament. People did once take it literally, but science has proven so many of their beliefs were wrong. Like the firmament god created to seperate high waters from low waters. Well, since the sky looked blue, someone got the idea that above the sky there is a huge body of water surrounding the earth, and that the sky is a solid transparent shell.

And let me ask you another thing. How do you know the bible is true yet you know that Kuran isn't? What makes you think Jesus is real god, but Muhammed was just a guy who wanted power and added a bunch false information in the bible? What makes you think that the jews are doing a blasphemy by taking out the whole new testament out of the bible? Well, I'll tell you what. Your upbringing and lack of education in history of religion. If you admit that the bible is not a 100% certain historical document, it will not make you a less of a christian. It is simply something you must adopt in order for things to make sense. You keep saying that people who took away something from the bible will loose god's blessing. But people did do that at the Council of Nicaea. They decided what goes in and what goes out. And prior to that, the bible was not a unified book. It was a colection of religious scriptures. You may say that nothing has been taken out, but not everything has been put in either. On the other hand, Muhammed added a whole bunch of new ideas to the bible, so would you say he lost god's blessings too? Billions of people followed his new version. Did he lie? If he did, all the muslims are infidels who follow false prophets. Did god really speak to him? Then christianity is a false religion. You must realize that things are not that black and white as they seem to you.

On another note, I'm sorry if I am too inquisitive, but I'm just wondering what's that illness you have?

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 If you admit that the bible is not a 100% certain historical document, it will not make you a less of a christian.

Actually - in defence of the Bible for a second - many parts of the Bible are actually historically accurate and, in some parts, constitute the best written record we currently possess of a number of historical events.

I'm not well trained enough to tell you which parts precisely are historically accurate and which parts aren't, but generally speaking the accounts of historical events that supposedly take place before the Babylonian sacking of Jeruselum (in about 650 BC) are innaccurate and these innaccuracies can and have been demonstrated with recent achaeological evidence (or lack thereof). The reason is that the Bible was first written by Jewish refugees in Babylon and their accounts of events predating the fall of Jeruselum are based solely on myths passed down orally over the span of many generations. So, basically Genesis, Exodus, Joshua and some of the "historical books" (Samuel, Kings etc.) are full of nothing but fictional events.

The history of the Jewish people as presented in both Testements from this date, however, is generally quite accurate (excluding all the stuff about gods, angels and magic tricks of course).

^^
Well, I never said the bible does not have any historical references whatsoever. Infact, I do realize that some of its contents are relatively good historical documents. I was, however, implying that although some parts of it are most likely a correct represenation of the historical occurances, there are many parts that aren't.

Basically what you said, throw out all the stuff about god, angels, magic, and the first few books and you'll get a relatively good historical document

Oh crap, I forgot about the little thing called freedom of speech. And the amendment is freedom of religion (practice), not freedom of people trash talking your God. I would be nicer, but not knowing about the constitution

edit: Wow, that came late. Maybe I should check the page numbers next time. That was to the last comment on the other page.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider I so wanna give up .... sooooo wanna give up. Nessa, he wasn't speaking ill about your illness. He was saying don't place blind faith in everything the bible says, especially literal interpretations. In as much as it says homosexuals should be put to death, it also says those who have "blemishes" or infirmaties are somehow "less" than those who have none. This is especially applicable to you, in as much as the other passages are applicable to homosexuals. As a matter of fact YOU quoted the bible saying homosexuality made those people inferior, just like MisterOpus quoted the bible saying that those who are ill are inferior. And YES there are plenty of homosexuals that visit this forum that would take offense. Yet the difference, Nessa, was that MisterOpus was doing it to make a point rather than really believing in it, and you had the audacity to be offended by behaviour that can be likend to your own. I'm sorry but the hypocracy of the whole situation doesn't really engender much sympathy in me.

Occrider spoke well for my case, so I won't add much else. I will only say that I meant no harm to you in regards to your illness when referring to the Leviticus passages. The entire point of my post was to demonstrate exactly what Occ has described. If you take one quote out of the entire book of Leviticus to demonstrate your point of view, then you must take the rest of those laws laid down to the followers of Moses as well, and many of those laws are quite unpleasant and pretty out there by today's standards (including the one on disabilities). IOW, you need to be careful what you pick and choose out of the Bible to assert your views. Many o' Christians have a tendency to do this, and fail to understand the full context of those passages from which they decisively pluck out for their own affirmations.

Again, I believe you missed my point entirely. Nevertheless, I am truly sorry you have been offended. Just please understand that was not my intention when I was making my previous point on Leviticus passages.

DAmn this thread! Damn this thread straight to hell (or to kingdom of Hades or whatever you might believe in). I haven't gotten anything done at all today. I've just farted around this thread the whole day.

But boy was it a learning experience!

Today I have picked up that in the first thousands of years God was an extremely grumpy person with all his "smithe thee" attitude. Then he most probably was a drunk as well.

Here's why:
He threw out the first woman he created who then fornicated with a shitloads of deamons or something. He got furiated with her but apparently let her go on with her misdemeanor if, and only if, he could kill 100 of her deamon spawns each day and render her powerless against children who had their, somewhat excessive, skin removed around their willies. Other people and women was still fair game. Sounds like a drunken joke to me.

Then he got in a better mood. Why? He got laid. He obviously had a son which means he had to get laid. Maybe not in the phsyical hard core sense we indulge in our selves but maybe in one of those clean divine ways or something.

/end of crappy joke

Seriously, it's been a very interesting thread. Kudos to everybody involved, you know who you are


Oops, and now my working day has ended. See you all tomorrow

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Now, Nessa, I am sorry for your illness, but you have to accept that the bible was written by men who were influenced by the social standards of their time. So yes, people at the time thought sick people were less worthy, and it reflected itself in the bible. Now, nobody is attacking your beliefs as a christian, but you must accept that the bible doesn't make any sense if it is taken literally, especially the old testament. People did once take it literally, but science has proven so many of their beliefs were wrong. Like the firmament god created to seperate high waters from low waters. Well, since the sky looked blue, someone got the idea that above the sky there is a huge body of water surrounding the earth, and that the sky is a solid transparent shell.

Really,I don't need pity. That won't get me anywhere. :/ No,no I mentioned before you aren't attacking my beliefs. It's just when people take the subject of illness,especially referring to mine, that just kills me because it's a really sensitive subject right now.

quote:

And let me ask you another thing. How do you know the bible is true yet you know that Kuran isn't? What makes you think Jesus is real god, but Muhammed was just a guy who wanted power and added a bunch false information in the bible? What makes you think that the jews are doing a blasphemy by taking out the whole new testament out of the bible? Well, I'll tell you what. Your upbringing and lack of education in history of religion. If you admit that the bible is not a 100% certain historical document, it will not make you a less of a christian. It is simply something you must adopt in order for things to make sense. You keep saying that people who took away something from the bible will loose god's blessing. But people did do that at the Council of Nicaea. They decided what goes in and what goes out. And prior to that, the bible was not a unified book. It was a colection of religious scriptures. You may say that nothing has been taken out, but not everything has been put in either. On the other hand, Muhammed added a whole bunch of new ideas to the bible, so would you say he lost god's blessings too? Billions of people followed his new version. Did he lie? If he did, all the muslims are infidels who follow false prophets. Did god really speak to him? Then christianity is a false religion. You must realize that things are not that black and white as they seem to you.

I don't know a whole lot about the Kuran(sp?) I don't think I've made any remarks saying the Kuran isn't true..I don't believe Jesus is the real God, I believe Jesus is the real God's son.

On the other hand,what makes people think the Bible is wrong the Kuran is correct? Or, why do muslims believe Jesus wasn't the son of God,but only a prophet? I have no idea as to why. But, they do. I'm not going to tell them they can't believe it.

quote:

On another note, I'm sorry if I am too inquisitive, but I'm just wondering what's that illness you have?

It's a stomach and a bladder disorder due to my back,and they are thinking a few other factors,but they still don't know exactly what I have,and how to treat/cure it..:/

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Occrider spoke well for my case, so I won't add much else. I will only say that I meant no harm to you in regards to your illness when referring to the Leviticus passages. The entire point of my post was to demonstrate exactly what Occ has described. If you take one quote out of the entire book of Leviticus to demonstrate your point of view, then you must take the rest of those laws laid down to the followers of Moses as well, and many of those laws are quite unpleasant and pretty out there by today's standards (including the one on disabilities). IOW, you need to be careful what you pick and choose out of the Bible to assert your views. Many o' Christians have a tendency to do this, and fail to understand the full context of those passages from which they decisively pluck out for their own affirmations.

I didn't think you meant to harm me, just please bare in mind that speaking about an illness is an extremely touchy subject for me.
You posted the link,that said God is pretty much neutral about sexuality, and I just posted it so you could see he isn't.

quote:

Again, I believe you missed my point entirely. Nevertheless, I am truly sorry you have been offended. Just please understand that was not my intention when I was making my previous point on Leviticus passages.

Yes, I understand.

quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. So which part of it were you referring to? MrS

With freedom of speech,comes responsibility. It's not responsible to be knocking ones belief,so to say. That would be what I was referring to.

Nellie read this: http://www.meta-library.net/intro/evolu-body.html

it's about evolution and god, that it doesn't need to contradict each other.... not much text either...

quote:

Recently, the Vatican Observatory in conjunction with the Berkeley-based Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences held a conference on the issue of evolution to which they invited theologians, philosophers, and scientists from around the world. Here, Christian participants overwhelming agreed that evolution was not in conflict with Christian faith, and that on the contrary it could be seen as the way in which God goes about being creative within the world. For these believers, an understanding of the processes of evolution could indeed enhance their faith.

This thread needs to die

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