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quote:

Originally posted by d0uble h3lix lol, it actually was a real question btw. it sounded so right wing i thought you were being sarcastic. apparently i was wrong.. /

I understand Canadians do have a particular interest, and rightly so, in American elections. It is kind of difficult to understand the undercurrents of nationalism that we have if you havent lived here.

As far as Bush being an idiot...I mean you gotta admit he is smart in some way. If nothing else he was intelligent to get to know the right people to get him into office. First as a Governor, and then as the President. If he isn't brilliant at engineering and building dams, or military strategy and leading out troops, he is at least a cunning humanist. He understands motives and drives and knows how to utilize them. Thats what presidents do. He has generals to fight his wars, the judicial system and legislative branch to make and interpret law, and a treasury and people like Greenspan (who I hate) to run the economy and make suggestions.

He has a an idea of where America should go. Thats it. If you talk to most CEOs (ive met a lot) and presidents of companies you will find it is HARD to say exactly what they do. My father has been a president or CEO or founder of 5 or 6 companies. I still dont quite understand what he does other than say "Lets dominate the high-tech consulting field specializing in aeronautics and helpdesk applications"

Then the salesmen go out and sell and the developers and engineers acuate it.

GW isnt the guy out there shooting guns or teaching kids how to read.

So, just realize exactly what it means to be president/ Commander and Chief. Its having a vision... a dream. Too see a United America again, one with citizens proud of their government, their systems, their businesses, is all I want.

I want to see kids wearing slacks to church again instead of shorts and tee-shirts (because thats what their parents wear). I want to want to go to church again because its hard to find one that isnt full of whiny zealots playing emo. I want there to be moderate and independant thinkers again.

Will George W take us there? Hell no. I dont expect him to at all. I expect him to be the president who took a hell off a swipe at cleaning up the Middle East. Iraq...probably wont be the end. Lets be realistic. Hopefully he will communicate his vision to the people better in the future, and hopefully trust us enough to be able to decide on whats right for the country.

I want to be able to go to Europe again and this time not punch ******s in the face for getting on my case for my personal president that I wasnt old enough to vote for last time I went. I want America and its citizens to be respected as a top notch group of folks who fight the good fight again...and again...and again, until we aren't needed in that area any more.

Personally, I didnt see Kerry doing anything other than nothing along those lines. Hed finish up in Iraq, quietly take us out and give us 2-6 years of tranquility. We might get attacked again, our embassies may be bombed, but the days of war mongering would be over. America would go back to sleep. Then we would stagnate. The aforemenionted "forward thinkers" would gain more and more power and when the time came to do something, there would be nothing that could be done. We would be a bunch of snivelling cowards, itching to elect Hillary Clinton and "FOUR MORE YEARS!!" of quiet stagnation.

oh, right, it's pointless to quote orbax. for one, he's got me on ignore, second, it's pointless to quote orbax.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Wasnt really saying that. We just have a generation out right now that thinks tradition, of any kind, is for old people and retards. The labels of "forward thinking" or "modern" or "realistic" help justify the thought. In reality, I think that re-inventing the ethical and moral wheel every time you are faced with a decision is slowing down the progress of society today. The fact that 12 year olds dress as sluts and whores for Halloween instead of princesses shows a depressingly jaded world, one that has lost idealism and forgotten childhood and has "progressed" to the ranks of adults. We are living in a time where kids dont get to be kids, and neither do adults. In Plato's Republic there is a great line. It isnt old age that weighs so heavily on people, its their lives. Tell me what is 'forward' about 85% of middle schoolers saying that "Oral sex isnt sex". I think that throwing away the shackles of tradition and precedence have just left us adrift in an ocean of darkness. Hopefully it wont be too late to go pick up the old fart you threw overboard before realizing he was the only one who could navigate.

I think that what you say is in a way valid, and I certainly agree with holding on to some traditions and ideals from the past. However, I dont agree with what your saying about "re-inventing the wheel" slowing down the progress the society.

We live in a time where there are so many issues out there in our culture that are controversial, that I don't believe there is any other way except to "re-invent this wheel". Things are different than they were 30 years ago, and we really do need a leader to address this.

I think what you are saying about children and their childhoods definitely is something to be thought about. I agree with you that there is something wrong with little girls dressing like sluts, and middle schoolers not consider oral sex to be sex, but what does this say about our society in general? If little kids are showing these signs what does it say about the parents of this generation and the society that these children grow up in?

However, I don't think the solution to this problem is to adhere to ideas of old, and take the conservative way out by, for example, telling these children that the only safe sex is no sex. Perhaps the reason these children are the way they are is because people are telling them not to do things, and of course, kids being kids, they think "hey lets do what were not supposed to."

You brought up some interesting points, but I don't think that we're going to mend society by trying to look to the past for a solution.

I don't believe Orbax was saying we need to "adhere" to the past to effectively progress in the future. It just seems as though we've definitely moved far away from who we used to identify ourselves as - in terms of National identity. America was founded through ideals - strong, independent, people can take care of themselves in a nation where the Government doesn't intervene with people's lives, but is there to care for the people when the need arises. That's why the Government started off much smaller - people could just take care of themselves. True, the world and our society has changed much over these years, and there are certain guidelines we can no longer follow in the traditional manner, but the ideals that this nation were founded on are just universal morals and statutes for decency towards citizens. We can no longer live in the past anymore, but to merely ignore it because it's old is simply retarded - there are fundamentals in this world, whether you want to admit it or not, and to just abandon those for the sake of progression would be a weakness.

I have to agree with Orbax. We have to move forward, but not at the cost of sacrificing all of our ethics and morals. If things in this country continue to become more and more liberal, everything becomes okay and acceptable. There are some really tough issues, abortion and homosexual marriage, and there are some others that aren't as complex. Drugs are more acceptable now than they were. I'm not saying I haven't done any, but it's not a good thing that we become more and more desensitized to everything. I agree that Bush might not have explained his motives well in entering Iraq, and may not have had full support or even close. However, I believe it's a means to an end. Clinton was too concerned being a politician and pleasing everyone to put his foot down. I want a president that is willing to make the hard decisions.

And DoubleHelix - Interdependant? I would say that Canada is a lot more dependant on us than we are they.

quote:

Originally posted by whiskers people are choosing their "moral standpoints" to be the model for the rest of the country. the problem is that kerry's supporters' moral standpoints are "you are allowed to have any standpoints you wish" and bush's supporters' standpoints are "you are allowed to have only the standpoints we tell you are right, such as anti-gay marriage laws and anti-abortion laws because we don't like them, so we won't give you a choice"

I don't remember why I used to dislike you, but now I quite like the way you think

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. I don't understand how 50% of America has failed to see that Bush is a moron, i really don't. The rest of the world knows it, but i guess Bush's campaign of "security" (read: Fear) worked wonders.

yip:


http://www.betavote.com

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. I don't understand how 50% of America has failed to see that Bush is a moron, i really don't. The rest of the world knows it, but i guess Bush's campaign of "security" (read: Fear) worked wonders.

Funny how the rest of the world isn't here and really doesn't know shit about our country, besides what their biased media tells them, and tries to spout of like an authority on our politics.

quote:

Originally posted by sym

You have no idea how much contempt I have for the Parents of Generations next. The baby boomers were taught by the WWII generation. An arguably badass group. The ruled with an iron fist and it produced the CEOs and Presidents of today.

Now the Baby Boomers took a look at the beatings and the abuse and said "Never to my kids" and then raised them with NO kind of rules whatsoever.

I see so many kids these days that piss me off and you just look at them and think "One good smack upside the head would fucking FIX this kid"

Besides the lack of real repercussion for misdeeds (a rewarding, really. The kids get attention when they are being bad and ignored otherwise, a blatant look away from the psychological standard of positive re-enforcement) the parents raise them with no moral basis. They give them the freedom to do whatever they want.

but in all reality that is like dumping your kid off naked in the woods and tell them that youll see em at home in 18 years. We are living in some pretty amazing times. Subjects that were ignored or didnt exist before are now in the open and WE are the generations to decide on them.

But the kids have no reference. They are sitting there with nothing to relate to being told to make judgments on no other basis than "dont judge". No wonder kids are so fucked up these days.

All Im saying is that at home kids need to be taught some basics in ethics. Work, business, friendship. Trust and betrayal. How to deal with tough situations when someone asks you to do something that is wrong. Letting them know whats wrong. Teach em how to be a gentleman, or a lady. A sense of propriety.

I dont think we need to teach them to have Tea Time at 2:30 and the proper edicate for brunch.

Give them enough to get through the first 18 years of life without making a mess of themselves. The studies that have beenc oming out for the last 10 years have all shown that kids have no self image. No identity. They are trying to find themselves through dressing a certain way or watching certain TV shows and listening to certain music instead of having a firm idea of who they are.

If you think about what makes a person it isnt someone who likes rock climbing or snowboards every winter. The people you decide on are people who like meeting challenges head on, are always there for a friend. Dont back down in tough situations and honor their word.

You could give a shit what they do.

So yeah, im talking pretty basic values here, but its something that seems to be missing. Dont let me get into what culture seems to be influencing youth today because its the worst culture in America and seems to be the most influential.

Bah.

On issues like sex. I am conservative on that thinking that you should love someone you are having sex with. But im not for waiting for marriage. It just needs to not be a cheap taudry thing that is as disposable as the condom you should be using.

Drugs...Ive done em. Was fun. Probably do em again. Moderation and not getting into a culture of hanging out in low class areas or doing it too much. Realize its illegal and makes it hard to get jobs though.

People just have no balance to their lives. There isnt anything to check the explosion of new things new drugs new images new everything. They have no way to put boundaries on what is possible. They dont see the need to. They see people like us TAs talking about E and how much fun it is then without researching it go take the first 4 pills someone sells them.

Its just a very ignorant yet well endowed group of people moving through. And they are getting fucked and they wont know it till they are 40.

Kerry really won?

>>>>LINK<<<<

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess Kerry really won? >>>>LINK<<<<

Here we go again.

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess Kerry really won? >>>>LINK<<<<

NO. sorry.

And to whoever said MTV was what was influencing these kids and making them dress bad and act socially immoral was right. But guess what, MTV echoes a lot of the policies and ideals of a liberal government (ie: Democrats, more specifically Kerry). Pro-choice encourages sexual immorality. And that's just scraping the surface. Think about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dirk W. NO. sorry. And to whoever said MTV was what was influencing these kids and making them dress bad and act socially immoral was right. But guess what, MTV echoes a lot of the policies and ideals of a liberal government (ie: Democrats, more specifically Kerry). Pro-choice encourages sexual immorality. And that's just scraping the surface. Think about it.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Dirk W. Pro-choice encourages sexual immorality..

does that mean your against all forms of contraception?

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess Kerry really won? >>>>LINK<<<<

By that logic, Bush won New Mexico and a few other states in 2000.

quote:

Originally posted by Nite-Mer Here we go again.

oh hell i know.

i doesn't bother me. what is should do is bother the americans because it just makes them look so bad. can't decide on a president, and can't stand behind their leader.

it just makes them look really bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael19 does that mean your against all forms of contraception?

theres a plus and minus side for contraception. I am by no means an angel so I will lay this on the table now.

With that said....

Contraception does not explicitly promote sexual immorality as does abortion (I believe abortion is immoral to begin with - not looking for an argument, just stating an opinion). On the contrary, contraception actually encourages responsible behavior and can and should be used in (married) relationships to avoid any unwanted pregnancies.

bush can fuck off with all that macedonia bullshit
its part of greece u dumbfucks!

quote:

Originally posted by StereoPrincess oh hell i know. i doesn't bother me. what is should do is bother the americans because it just makes them look so bad. can't decide on a president, and can't stand behind their leader. it just makes them look really bad.

I agree, but that's also why I wouldn't have bitched and moaned if Kerry was elected. It wouldn't have been my choice, but I would have to live with it and move forward. Too many cry babies here, and the rest of the world for that matter. Ironic how people that don't even live here are crying and whining. Move on and make do with what you have. I'm not flaming anyone in particular, btw, just a general observation.

consolation:


http://www.sorryeverybody.com/

quote:

Originally posted by fitom tiel consolation: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/

I'm sorry that these sorry sons of bitches feel they need to say they're sorry for their sorry president who won the largest sorry amount of sorry popular votes out of any sorry president in the sorry history of this sorry country.

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast I'm sorry that these sorry sons of bitches feel they need to say they're sorry for their sorry president who won the largest sorry amount of sorry popular votes out of any sorry president in the sorry history of this sorry country.

I finally agree with you 100% on something.

quote:

Originally posted by Dirk W. theres a plus and minus side for contraception. I am by no means an angel so I will lay this on the table now. With that said.... Contraception does not explicitly promote sexual immorality as does abortion (I believe abortion is immoral to begin with - not looking for an argument, just stating an opinion). On the contrary, contraception actually encourages responsible behavior and can and should be used in (married) relationships to avoid any unwanted pregnancies.

you cant say contraception doesnt promote sexual immorality but abortion does, surely they either both do or dont?

Also, do you think the morning after pill is a form of abortion and shouldnt be allowed?

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