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-- September 11th Attacks - Do You Think It Was a Conspiracy?
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN donny & me lumped into the same category?!?! shit, i wonder who's more offended?  |
*yawn*
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| Originally posted by me http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/...low_quality.wmv   |
it would be impossible for enough thermite to be hidden in the towers to make the molten iron supposedly still being found weeks later at ground zero. we are talking thousands of tonnes of thermite. just not possible. thermite is also not capable of bringing down buildings in the way the towers collapsed. impossible. think about it.
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN it would be impossible for enough thermite to be hidden in the towers to make the molten iron supposedly still being found weeks later at ground zero. we are talking thousands of tonnes of thermite. just not possible. thermite is also not capable of bringing down buildings in the way the towers collapsed. impossible. think about it. |
Physisist Steven Jones shows thermate in WTC dust from PNACitizen conference
Thermate (Aluminum + Sulfer + Iron Oxide) shown in large quantities in WTC dust. X-EDS (X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy) analysis shown with discussion of other WTC anomolies showing official story of WTC collapse is incorrect.
Steven Jones gave a lecture at University of Texas in Austin as part of the Project for the New American Citizen's conference called 'Rebuilding America's Senses (Exposing false-flag terrorism to prevent a new 9/11).
In this talk is a never-before released X-EDS (X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy) analysis of WTC dust taken from the scene showing conclusively the presence of thermate (a hotter reaction than thermite) in iron sphericals.
He shows the presence of Sulfer, Aluminium, and Iron in the exact concentrations used in Thermate reactions. This, according to Steven Jones, explains how molton steel was found in the debris since office debris and even JET-A fuel is not capable of melting steel.
He is able to scientifically rule out other possibilities (including the torches used at ground zero during cleanup) and even shows the orange glow of the dripping steel that was videotapes pouring out of the WTC towers just 5 minutes before their collapse.
This is POWERFUL evidence that thermate was used to bring down the towers during 9/11.
REOPEN the 9/11 investigation! Order the re-analysis of the WTC dust and do a check for thermite and thermate AS IS REQUIRED BY LAW (NFPA 921)
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
steven jones has NO credability as a scientist or researcher. he was a member of that famous group of US physicists who claimed to have discovered cold fusion.
im not even going to get into the whole thermate/thermite argument as it has been argued to death, and has been proven to be rediculous on numerous occasions. the columbs you so gracefully displayed in your post were cut by oxygen lance... thermate will not make a clean cut, and definatly not at a perfect 45 degree angle.
using steven jones as "evidence" to conspiracy theories would be like me using GW bush quotes for debunking conspiracy theories.....
i was hoping for a little better from you, that was a culrout post
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| Originally posted by colonelcrisp steven jones has NO credability as a scientist or researcher. he was a member of that famous group of US physicists who claimed to have discovered cold fusion. im not even going to get into the whole thermate/thermite argument as it has been argued to death, and has been proven to be rediculous on numerous occasions. the columbs you so gracefully displayed in your post were cut by oxygen lance... thermate will not make a clean cut, and definatly not at a perfect 45 degree angle. using steven jones as "evidence" to conspiracy theories would be like me using GW bush quotes for debunking conspiracy theories..... i was hoping for a little better from you, that was a culrout post |
Wow what a surprise, look at all the insults being slung around from the usual deniers! 
If you can't win resort to attacking the messenger instead of the message, how fuking pathetic.
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Physisist Steven Jones shows thermate in WTC dust from PNACitizen conference Thermate (Aluminum + Sulfer + Iron Oxide) shown in large quantities in WTC dust. X-EDS (X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy) analysis shown with discussion of other WTC anomolies showing official story of WTC collapse is incorrect. Steven Jones gave a lecture at University of Texas in Austin as part of the Project for the New American Citizen's conference called 'Rebuilding America's Senses (Exposing false-flag terrorism to prevent a new 9/11). In this talk is a never-before released X-EDS (X-Ray Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy) analysis of WTC dust taken from the scene showing conclusively the presence of thermate (a hotter reaction than thermite) in iron sphericals. He shows the presence of Sulfer, Aluminium, and Iron in the exact concentrations used in Thermate reactions. This, according to Steven Jones, explains how molton steel was found in the debris since office debris and even JET-A fuel is not capable of melting steel. He is able to scientifically rule out other possibilities (including the torches used at ground zero during cleanup) and even shows the orange glow of the dripping steel that was videotapes pouring out of the WTC towers just 5 minutes before their collapse. This is POWERFUL evidence that thermate was used to bring down the towers during 9/11. REOPEN the 9/11 investigation! Order the re-analysis of the WTC dust and do a check for thermite and thermate AS IS REQUIRED BY LAW (NFPA 921) [[ LINK REMOVED ]] |
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Eye-witness accounts of the presence of molten metal at high temperatures in the basement rubble of the Twin Towers and WTC7 have led Jones to speculate that the industrial compound thermite was responsible, and is hence evidence for the CD theory. Jones: �I maintain that these observations are consistent with the use of high-temperature cutter-charges such as thermite, HMX or RDX or some combination thereof, routinely used to melt/cut/demolish steel.� But thermite is an incendiary, a vastly different product to HMX and RDX which are military explosives like TNT that can be used in civilian demolition projects. Thermite is a slow-burning product in comparison, does not explode, and, as far as I can determine, is never used in demolition of buildings. It can be used to melt horizontal pieces of steel, because it produces molten iron at up to 2,500 degrees centigrade, which flows onto the target and melts it. It cannot be used to melt vertical structures, because the molten iron simply flows past the target. Thermite is used to quietly destroy military equipment such as artillery (by inserting it down an up-pointing barrel), but more regularly in construction, for example, to weld rails together. Hence the CD theory is not supported by the quantities of molten metal, because thermite in its conventional form is useless in demolition: it is slow-burning, with unpredictable time to melt, and can only be used in direct contact with horizontal unclad steel beams / components. (The horizontal steel members in the Twin Towers were covered by at least 4 inches of concrete.) Prototype thermite cutter torches have been developed which could cut steel at any angle, but they work by producing as stream of high-velocity, high-temperature combustion products. Any iron produced by such a cutter would be dispersed as as droplets and would only in exceptional circumstances pool into any significant quantities of molten iron. It is more likely that a film of iron particles, mixed with aluminium oxide particles, would be deposited on nearby surfaces. However this is speculation on my part as I cannot find any reference to commercially available thermite cutter torches. If anyone can provide information on such devices I would be pleased to hear from them. Nano-thermites, mentioned by Jones, are also ruled out because they operate more like an explosive, and so would disperse iron particles as I suggest above. The thermite lance, a variant that uses a long iron tube with aluminium rods running through it, is ruled out as far as I can tell because it would require an operative. HMX or RDX on the other hand, which can be used in demolition (though TNT seems to be more common), would not melt steel, because the high energy content of the material is released in very short timescales, designed, not to melt the target, but to fracture it. Jones: �Observe the grayish-white plumes trailing upward from white "blobs" at the left-most extremities of the upper structure. (The lower structure is mostly obscured by dust.) It is possible that thermite cut through structural steel and that what we now observe is white-hot iron from the reaction adhering to the severed ends of the steel, with grayish-white aluminum oxide still streaming away from the reaction sites. The observations are consistent with the use of thermite or one of its variants.� In the photograph provided there is only one white blob on the left-most extremity of the upper structure. Grayish white plumes seem to come from the whole structure, not the blob, and could be any kind of ash or powder. There is no significant resemblance either to the plumes emitted from the bag of thermite in Jones�s accompanying photo. Indeed the plumes in the WTC photo are indistinguishable from the billowing clouds of dust and debris around them. More easily visible, and the subject of debate, is the stream of what looks like molten metal running from WTC 2 just below the impact zone. Jones: �Who can deny that liquid, molten metal existed at the WTC disaster? The yellow color implies a molten-metal temperature of approximately 1000 oC, evidently above that which the dark-smoke hydrocarbon fires in the Towers could produce. If aluminum (e.g., from the plane) had melted, it would melt and flow away from the heat source at its melting point of about 650 oC and thus would not reach the yellow color observed for this molten metal. Thus, molten aluminum is already ruled out with high probability.� To rule out aluminium so quickly is poor science, because we don�t know what the temperatures were in the impact zone, while we do know that many metric tonnes of aluminium constituting the plane were in the area just above the outflow of molten metal. Of course, the alternative hypothesis, that the molten metal was iron or steel, should be also considered carefully. The argument of Jones is that if the molten metal were steel, then it would support the CD theory. But the link between molten steel and controlled demolition is non-existent, as thermite is not used in controlled demolition. Hence Jones requires a variation on controlled demolition: controlled demolition plus the use gratuitous and incompetent use of thermite. We have to believe that the conspirators had researched controlled demolition so badly as to decide on the use of thermite. Now, Jones estimates that �Roughly 2,000 pounds of RDX-grade linear-shaped charges� would be sufficient to bring the building down, and such a quantity of explosive might conceivably have been hidden in each of the towers. But the quantity of thermite required to produce this stream of molten metal is much greater. 107 Kg of thermite is required to produce 54 Kg of molten iron, and the stream of molten metal flowing from the impact zone (if iron) has been estimated at thousands of kilograms. Even if the stream is only 1,000 kg of iron, then 2,000 kg, or two metric tonnes, of thermite would be required. But the CD hypothesis implies much more than this. For a start the thermite would have been distributed over the proposed target floor for initial collapse, so it would be very difficult for the molten iron products to pool in one place and pour out. Secondly, the CD hypothesis agrees that the floor(s) of impact of the plane could not have been exactly predicted, so every, say, 5 floors, another couple of metric tonnes of thermite would be required. (Jones: �� to make it appear that the planes somehow initiated the collapse; cutter-charges could have been pre-placed at numerous spots in the building, since one would not know exactly where the planes would enter.�) Even if only the top half of the building were so prepared, then we would anticipate 2 metric tonnes x 11 locations or 22 tonnes. If the mass of stream of molten metal were estimated at more like 10,000 kg of iron then the figure goes up to 220 tonnes of thermite. We have to believe (a) that the conspirators were ignorant enough to attempt to use thermite, and (b) could insinuate between 22 and 220 tonnes of thermite, plus charges, plus radio firing systems, into each tower. If in addition, thermite is required by the CD hypothesis to account for the molten steel in the basement after collapse, then we have to add an addition two tonnes of thermite for every tonne of molten iron. The problem for the CD theory is in fact that no reliable estimates exist of the amount of molten metal, if any, in the basements. To sum up, it is a tough job to for the CD hypothesis to account for the stream of molten metal as iron produced from thermite reaction because (a) the choice of thermite requires the conspirators to be incompetent, (b) pooling of the molten iron would require the odd concentration of thermite on a given floor in one location, and (c) the quantity needed (22-220 tonnes) would be hard to smuggle in and hide in the building. This quantity increases by two tonnes per every tonne of molten steel estimated to be in the basements. The IF hypothesis suggests that the molten metal is aluminium (and other alloys used in plane construction), and that it pooled in that location because that is where the plane was. As Jones rightly point out however, the IF hypothesis would require the molten aluminium (and alloys) to attain temperatures several hundred degrees above melting point. The IF hypothesis also requires that the molten steel in the basement have been heated by a combination of fire and mgh energy, so much rests on estimates of those factors. I want to add a hypothesis that may yet explain the high temperatures, and would need to be disproved by the CD theorists: that some of the aluminium in the planes was ignited on impact. I return to this issue later on. |
That paper is amazing
and lol @
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| Secondly, the CD hypothesis agrees that the floor(s) of impact of the plane could not have been exactly predicted, so every, say, 5 floors, another couple of metric tonnes of thermite would be required. (Jones: �� to make it appear that the planes somehow initiated the collapse; cutter-charges could have been pre-placed at numerous spots in the building, since one would not know exactly where the planes would enter.�) |
But that paper makes no mention at all of the possibility of them using a multi-component thermite-incendiary composition.
I think a couple of people up the road from me have a patent on something similar.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6766744.html
It definitely looks to me like there was molten metal dripping from the WTC building. What's it look like to you?
Same video but stabilized:
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X But that paper makes no mention at all of the possibility of them using a multi-component thermite-incendiary composition. I think a couple of people up the road from me have a patent on something similar. http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6766744.html |
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| Originally posted by Sunsnail That paper is amazing and lol @ |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X It definitely looks to me like there was molten metal dripping from the WTC building. What's it look like to you? Same video but stabilized: |
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A mole of Fe weighs 54 g. For every mole of Fe produced by thermite, one mole of Al and 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 is needed. 2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe One mole of Al weighs 27 g. 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 80 g. Therefore, (27 + 80) g = 107 g of Al and Fe2O3 is needed to produce 54 g of Fe. That means the mass of the reactants to that of Fe produced is a ratio of 107/54 = 2. The mass of thermite reactants (Al, Fe2O3) is twice that of the molten iron produced. Comparing the weight of molten aluminum droplets compared with iron: Iron is 7.9 g/cc. Aluminum is 2.64 g/cc. Fe is denser than Al by a factor of 3. For the same volume of droplets, Fe would have three times the mass as Al. To produce the iron from thermite requires a reactant mass that is a factor of 2 more than the iron produced. Also, Fe is 3 times as dense as Al. So, it would take 2*3 = 6 times as much mass to produce the same volume of molten iron droplets from thermite compared with molten aluminum droplets. Example: Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass. Suppose 10 tons of molten aluminum fell from the south tower, about 1/8th of that available from the airplane. If it had been molten iron produced from thermite, 60 tons of thermite reactants would have to have been stored in Fuji Bank to produce the same volume spilling out of the south tower. The section of floor would have to hold all of that plus the aircraft. *Amount of aluminum can be ascertained by counting the droplets and measuring their size compared to the known size of the window. It's not easy to get a good number on this. It's based on the number of slugs seen in video stills, their size relative to the window width which was about 22 inches, and the density of aluminum, assuming this was aluminum. <http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm> The weight of a gallon of aluminum is about 22.5 pounds. A hundred of these would already be 2250 lbs. A gallon size is not unlike the size of the slugs that were pouring out the window. Look at them relative to the window size. They look small at first, but when you realize how big the towers were, the slugs were fairly large. It must have been in the thousands of pounds. Some of the video stills show what look like 50 to 100 slugs in just one frame. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN let's stop inventing bombs to fill theoretical holes shall we? the simple point is thermite is not used in demolitions. i would also like to know how the TONNES of thermite was attached to the core columns, given that these were reinforced with 4 inch concrete. its an incendiary device, not an explosive capable of demolitions. and we're still forgetting the kilometres of fuse wire, and how exactly the government was able to plant explosives, when a job of this scale would have taken MONTHS of FULL-TIME prep. still ridiculous. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X That's probably why the bomb-sniffing dogs were pulled, why they powered down the South Tower (for an alleged cabling upgrade) and held evacuation drills just prior to 9/11. The power down would have disabled the security cameras, ID systems, etc. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X but I didn't invent them. Someone else did http://www.patentec.com/data/class/defs/149/0.html |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN *sighs* trancer, i remember you being far more committed than just re-hashing tired arguments. anywayz.... first things first. without knowing what that metal is, you have no reason to assume it is anything related to thermite. secondly, could you please explain to me how the thermite in the immediate areas of the crash site did not immediately ignite, given that thermite is ignited by heat? and i would like to know (as already mentioned) how the tonnes of thermite was secretly employed into the building, given the sheer size of that amount of substance, and the months and months it would have required? how exactly did they manage to get the thermite to cut columns HORIZONTALLY? thermite doesn't work that way. here's a little bit of maths for you. http://debunking911.com/thermite.htm there is no reason to believe that metal is anything but molten aluminium from the aircraft. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN since NONE of the powerdowns lasted several months, they didnt really allow enough time to plant explosives now did they? |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and theyre still not capable of bringing down buildings. |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X So then how do you think that they "pulled" WTC 7? Did the Big bad Wolf come and blow it down for them or something? |
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X and you know this to be a fact, right? Do you have some sort of DoD clearance that allows you access to all their prototypical weapons, incindiary devices, etc., that you know this? |
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The thermite wouldn't have only needed to make a clean cut like the photo above, it would have also needed to cut sideways. Not an easy feat for thermite. You see, it's a powder which burns chaotically. Maybe with some device but no working device has been proven to me to work to cut a vertical column. You can direct it with a canister <http://www.itep.ws/pdf/FOI_Rapport.pdf> but that method wouldn't work to cut a column. The canister only makes a small hole. Nano-thermite has been talked about but its uses fall far short of cutting these massive columns. It's in its research stage. They include possible uses for welding molecular devices <http://www.newscientisttech.com/art...ar-devices.html> and possible use as a heat signature flare decoy <http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/avail...5032005-162438/>. Then there is a patent of a device which has been brought up but as of yet, there is no evidence the idea went any further. Does it even work? Even if it did, they are "Ganged" together to make the cut. You would still need these boxes all over the columns. Once again the answer to this from the "scholars" is "rationalized technology". They need this technology to exist so it exists. There is some secret super thermite which can be placed in a canister which can survive 1,100 degree C so the primary charge doesn't go off. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you didn't answer my question. tsk tsk. |
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