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-- Roll Call: TOTA Atheist Thread
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Agnostic with pagan tendencies - i.e. nothing is more divine than untainted nature.
wow. 
massive influx of agnostics! 
-jem-
Yeah I'm an agnostic too
This thread has amused me...
Many very young people that are 'bulletproof and invincible' and are their own 'higher power' have spouted off..
First of all, I highly doubt that every professed 'athiest' is truly a athiest....
Secondly, an agnostic is someone that believes in a higher power, but doesn't subscribe to any organized religion...not one that hasn't thought about it..
Just one simple question I have to ask....
Can anybody explain in scientific terms the thing that is 'Love'...
What makes you 'love' someone and not 'love' someone else...I am talking about the romantic/butterflies in your stomach/sick feeling when you just can't get enough of someone else.
AS for me, I lived many years being my own God...I was the center of the universe and it was all about me. As years have passed, many things that I cannot and don't wish to explain have happened in my life. I do not subscribe to any organized religion. My spiritual beliefs can be summarized in one statement...
"There is a GOD, and it isn't me"
Where GOD, can stand for Good Orderly Direction, or Higher Power or whatever the hell else you want to put in there...
I am not naive or arrogant enough to think that I have complete control over EVERY aspect of my life. Nor do I think that I don't have control over ANY aspect of my life. We all have choices and there are so many things that we have no control over.
I would be interested to hear Xavier's thoughts on a higher power before and after he went to the Doc's....
Well Agnostic really means that God could or exist but there's no real proof for his existance nor there is a proof for him not existing...so basically I'm one of those that say "maybe...but maybe not". So far I'm leaning more towards the maybe not...and it's not neccessarily because I feel invincible.
Sometimes the insanity of it all bothers me though...and i don't mean people who believe in god but those who say that anything and everything that happends to them is god's will (the ones that push to the rediculous extreme, beyond reason). Back in the old days, before science everything was attributed to god...the good things, and bad things, and the ugly things...today many people seem to still live by that notion. For example last night I was watching the show The Contender and the guy was praying to god the whole time before the fight saying that god will decide whether he wins or loses and he feels that god will be with him. The guy got knocked out, and all he had to say is that it was god's plan for him not to win. Like seriously, 
shit like that bothers me. No disrespect to anyone but COME ON!
*sigh* anyway...there ya go!
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| Originally posted by starsearcher Well Agnostic really means that God could or exist but there's no real proof for his existance nor there is a proof for him not existing...so basically I'm one of those that say "maybe...but maybe not". So far I'm leaning more towards the maybe not...and it's not neccessarily because I feel invincible. Sometimes the insanity of it all bothers me though...and i don't mean people who believe in god but those who say that anything and everything that happends to them is god's will (the ones that push to the rediculous extreme, beyond reason). Back in the old days, before science everything was attributed to god...the good things, and bad things, and the ugly things...today many people seem to still live by that notion. For example last night I was watching the show The Contender and the guy was praying to god the whole time before the fight saying that god will decide whether he wins or loses and he feels that god will be with him. The guy got knocked out, and all he had to say is that it was god's plan for him not to win. Like seriously, shit like that bothers me. No disrespect to anyone but COME ON!*sigh* anyway...there ya go! |
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister [quote] First of all, I highly doubt that every professed 'athiest' is truly a athiest.... |
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| Secondly, an agnostic is someone that believes in a higher power, but doesn't subscribe to any organized religion...not one that hasn't thought about it.. |
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister Yes...I do not agree with a zealot in any capacity...whether it is for religion or against it...Many people that 'fight' against the structure of organized religion or faith show the same bigotry...Call a spade a spade...what is the different between disrespecting someone because they believe in a supreme being that they call 'Jesus' and disrespecting someone because they don't? Starsearcher, not saying you are a member of the above group at all, just making a point to some other 'atheists' that have posted here. |
No worries didn't think you were...I'm definitely not an atheist because the place I grew up in - Israel - well there's definitely something spiritual about it. May it be god or something else I don't know, I still stick to my "maybe, maybe not" theory. 
And when life gives your lemons...you make lemonade...you live through it, and you become stronger...
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| Originally posted by Jem_hadar why do u not think that possibly I or others here may not actually be atheists. im curious to know. are u saying some ppl say it to be cool or its the "hip" thing to do.. or are u saying some ppl think they dont believe but in fact they do? there is no doubt in my mind that god does not exist, nor any other high power (unless this "high power" is a species of aliens that just happens to be so powerful that they could appear "godlike" in the eys of us) i certainly do not subscribe to the idea that a being somehow created the universe or the world or anything. No, thats not right. An agnostic is a person who feels that the existence of god can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence. |
Alright, let me put on my scientist cap for a second and give you the science behind "love". Ahem....
"Attraction" (aka the beginning of love) starts when your phermones interact with someone else's. Chemically, when you're a compatible match with someone, you just feel it - this tingle, heightened senses, and your pulse speeds up. This is due to this chemical reaction from your body to theirs. As for the butterflies, when you are attracted to someone, your body releases serotonin and another chemical which gives a feeling of elation as well as a "hungry" feeling in your stomach (hence, the butterflies). This explains why one person and not the other as far as attraction goes....love, however, why you love one person yet not another....perhaps because this attraction dosen't stick or isn't as deeply felt. *shrug* In my experience, the "attraction" phase when I first meet someone I've dated seriously is like a tidal wave - you feel all warm and gooey inside and it dosen't go away when you're with them - the "schoolgirl" syndrome. The butterflies never seem to stop and a mere touch can send me into orbit. That's the good stuff. As opposed to those I've just dated a few times which is more like a stiff breeze on the beach and a sense of wicked fun.
And Part two - Why I (a scientist) am Agnostic
Reason One:
I firmly believe there is something out there. If you doubt this, do me favor and try this experiment. Go out to the woods - somewhere remote where human beings do not dwell often. Find a nice, open valley or a good scenic spot and hunker down. Listen and look around you. Think of all the miracles that had to occur to get a single celled organism to branch out and become the uncountable multitudes of life you see teeming around you. One little cell (created by chance from primordial gases and atoms) and we have all this because of it. Science still cannot explain what sparked that change and, until they can, I believe something greater exists. Nature holds such a power within it - there is a presence there that creeps up on me when I'm in the deep woods or ocean that dosen't occur when I venture forth into a church. And if you've ever been on an Indian burial mound at night (I have) or to some of the more ancient graveyards (double me), you can feel it too.
Reason Two:
Fate exists. Too many times in my life has there been something more out there that just WHAM! and changes my life entirely. It might not be the best thing at first but it can lead to it. Coincidence I thought at first but nope, there is such a thing as fate. THe more you fight against it, the worse things can turn out - better to just nudge a little and let life take you where it will.
It also comes down to I guess what you feel is the point of life on this earth. Are we here to transcend to a higher plane of existence or are we just "here"? Is there a point to being good or bad if there's no hell? Most righteous religion followers I know are always trying to better both themselves and those around them - which isn't a bad thing.
I believe that we're here to learn and be the best we can be but, at the same time, I don't intend to spend my life in a cubicle. I don't care if I'm not the wealthiest person in the world as long as I know my life has been full and rich with good people, places, and times. Let people learn from you and you from them and making people smile is the thing I love to do best. Laughter is pure light in my mind.
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister Don't take offense my man.... I don't want to call anybody out specifically, but you cannot be a athiest AND believe in Fate..... Atheism by definition is "That philosophy regards the world as it actually is, views it in the light of the data provided by progressive science and social experience. Atheistic materialism is the logical outcome of scientific knowledge gained over the centuries." So every action, every single thing that happens in life should be able to be explained by a scientific theory a reaction to stimulus. Not saying that someone cannot believe this way, but other posts by people claiming to be 'atheists' have supported a higher plane of conciousness. Atheism does not at all support this. Atheism is a belief that we are just animals, yes, animals with some intellect, but animals nonetheless. Everything is related to instinct (neural pathways in our brains slowly formed over centuries) or reaction to stimulus. Not saying that is wrong either. But if someone is going to claim to be a orange, then friggin be a orange, seeds and all.... Now I am not trying to convince anybody of anything...I believe in tolorance of anybody's beliefs...just pointing out a couple of glaring inconsistencies(sp?) that I saw... Let the debate rage on! |
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| Originally posted by Jem_hadar i believe everything happens as a result of everything else. when said event happens, it will influence something else... and thats why whut happens happens. we were not fated or destined to become this or to do that |
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| Originally posted by SurrJRS Causality. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Chaos theory is more fun though. |
~Jem~
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| Originally posted by Cyrus King Please read the wikipedia link i posted up and then see what is thought of the man. There were many gullible people in the 50's, and prior to that. THe majority of the people back then couldnt fathom the fact that we were from the same lineage as apes. Out of all the explanations that can be used to describe how casey came up with his answers (whether right or wrong) is the SOLE one that he was "gifted" with powers???? Give me a break I cant even beelive that you would make the assumption that she is actually "gifted" with powers that would "shatter" our beleif system. This woman is a fuckin joke. I watch montel williams when shes on it just to LAUGH at her and her generalized answers. For example. A woman (a stupid one like the rest of the audience was) asked a question about her father who used to be a teacher. "What was he doing in heaven"?.. she asked. Sylvia's answer was "hes up their teaching the children that come into heaven" AHHAHAHHHAHAHA... What a CROCK OF SHIIIIIIIIIIIIITE!!!!!!! Or how about this one "Sylvia.. i was driving my car one day and a bullet flew into the back area of my car where my daughter was sitting. It should have hit her head but it didnt. Later that day.. my little daughter said she saw something when the window shattered.. she said she saw an....." And before the woman could finish her comment Sylvia says "An angel" And the woman starts to get teary eyed and says "yes.... an angel.... thank you " AHHAHHAHAHAHHAH.... honestly... humans are so dumb. No wonder religion has survived so long. |
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| Originally posted by kabelicious Alright, let me put on my scientist cap for a second and give you the science behind "love". Ahem.... "Attraction" (aka the beginning of love) starts when your phermones interact with someone else's. Chemically, when you're a compatible match with someone, you just feel it - this tingle, heightened senses, and your pulse speeds up. This is due to this chemical reaction from your body to theirs. As for the butterflies, when you are attracted to someone, your body releases serotonin and another chemical which gives a feeling of elation as well as a "hungry" feeling in your stomach (hence, the butterflies). This explains why one person and not the other as far as attraction goes....love, however, why you love one person yet not another....perhaps because this attraction dosen't stick or isn't as deeply felt. *shrug* In my experience, the "attraction" phase when I first meet someone I've dated seriously is like a tidal wave - you feel all warm and gooey inside and it dosen't go away when you're with them - the "schoolgirl" syndrome. The butterflies never seem to stop and a mere touch can send me into orbit. That's the good stuff. As opposed to those I've just dated a few times which is more like a stiff breeze on the beach and a sense of wicked fun. And Part two - Why I (a scientist) am Agnostic Reason One: I firmly believe there is something out there. If you doubt this, do me favor and try this experiment. Go out to the woods - somewhere remote where human beings do not dwell often. Find a nice, open valley or a good scenic spot and hunker down. Listen and look around you. Think of all the miracles that had to occur to get a single celled organism to branch out and become the uncountable multitudes of life you see teeming around you. One little cell (created by chance from primordial gases and atoms) and we have all this because of it. Science still cannot explain what sparked that change and, until they can, I believe something greater exists. Nature holds such a power within it - there is a presence there that creeps up on me when I'm in the deep woods or ocean that dosen't occur when I venture forth into a church. And if you've ever been on an Indian burial mound at night (I have) or to some of the more ancient graveyards (double me), you can feel it too. Reason Two: Fate exists. Too many times in my life has there been something more out there that just WHAM! and changes my life entirely. It might not be the best thing at first but it can lead to it. Coincidence I thought at first but nope, there is such a thing as fate. THe more you fight against it, the worse things can turn out - better to just nudge a little and let life take you where it will. It also comes down to I guess what you feel is the point of life on this earth. Are we here to transcend to a higher plane of existence or are we just "here"? Is there a point to being good or bad if there's no hell? Most righteous religion followers I know are always trying to better both themselves and those around them - which isn't a bad thing. I believe that we're here to learn and be the best we can be but, at the same time, I don't intend to spend my life in a cubicle. I don't care if I'm not the wealthiest person in the world as long as I know my life has been full and rich with good people, places, and times. Let people learn from you and you from them and making people smile is the thing I love to do best. Laughter is pure light in my mind. |
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| Originally posted by Jem_hadar whuts the chaos theroy again? That Baki (trancechaos) controls everything in the known 'verse ? |
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| Originally posted by Chris T. Dot You didn't answer my question. Would you or would you not go yourself and see whether she was for real or not? I personally believe u wouldn't because if she was for real, which you at the moment can't disprove, it would shatter your current view. The one thing I really don't like about you Cyrus is the fact that you believe you're right on EVERYTHING and that anyone who disagrees with you is less of an intellect or a moron. Until you can disprove any of these examples I formerly listed, stop ridiculing them as frauds. Look at the universe and see just how complex it is and you really believe that this all happened by chance? By everything just magically falling into place? To believe in the Big Bang Theory is just as crazy as believing in a God then. Please show me how you can turn nothing into something. Please Cyrus. Maybe you know something we all don't and hold the key the life. |
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I'm not going to argue anymore on this issue. I don't really care what anyone believes in. But I just as I see faults within traditional religious belief systems I see many faults in atheist belief systems as well. When it all comes down to it, everyone chooses what they believe in, hopefully based on things they've seen in the world and their own research and not based on being born into a system of belief and blindly accepting it. But in the end, it all about having faith. |
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| Originally posted by fiya if you don't believe in God, how can someone else be God? ie. armin.
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| Originally posted by SurrJRS But Armin IS GOD!! What Jem said it correct... look up the word hyperbole and you will understand! |
There is a very basic principle that I think many of you are missing, and it's a principle upon which much of our anthropological knowledge is based.
It's called the ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE.
The anthropic principle essentially states this: "things are the way they are because if they weren't the way they are, we wouldn't be here to question their existance."
Another way of summing it up is by saying, "if things were different, humans wouldn't exist, so that's why things are the way they are."
For example, it can be used to answer the question "why do we live in a three-dimensional universe?" Of course, intelligent life couldn't function as we know it in two dimensions (try to consider circulation and digestion in a two-dimensional creature!). As well, most physicists agree that in four or greater dimensions, atoms would be so unstable that they would often randomly collapse on themselves, destroying any chances of complicated molecules forming. Thus, three dimensions is the only number of dimensions in which intelligent life can exist, and therefore, that's why we live in a three-dimensional universe (since in any other universe, we wouldn't be here to question it!)
So when somebody asks "why did all of this wonderful life evolve on Earth?", the answer can be explained by the Anthropic Principle. The answer is simply that if life had not evolved on Earth, then we wouldn't be here to question it! Life is a prerequisite for humanity, and thus our existance is dependant on it.
Anybody who knows quantum mechanics understands the seemingly random nature of the universe. If an extremely large number of monkeys started hammering random keys on typewriters, eventually one of them would type out one of Shakespeare's works. It's inevitable, given enough time (or enough monkeys!).
We, as humans, don't know how many other universes there are, or even how many planets there are with the potential to create intelligent life. It is true, however, that SOME PROBABILITY EXISTS that self-replicating molecules formed out of our primordial ooze and created the first life. It doesn't matter how small the probability is; what matters is that it is NOT ZERO (and quantum mechanics prooves that this probability exists). Given enough time (or enough planets that have the potential for intelligent life to be created), IT'S INEVITABLE THAT INTELLIGENT LIFE WILL EVOLVE, with no deity or supernatural being required.
Now that is by no means a proof that a god didn't create us, but it is a proof that left to its own devices, the universe would eventually produce intelligent life on its own - no god required.
So why are we here to question our existance? We are the Shakespearean play that was hammered out by a monkey. We are the probability fluke that was inevitable from the creation of the universe. At least that's what I believe. I'm not saying it's impossible that a god created us; I'm just justifying my beliefs and the beliefs of others.
This may be long
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| [i][b] You see.. science uses something called "evidence" to help explain its theories. Religion just states supernatural bullshit that people still beleive to this day. Science has more validation than religion. Religion is just.. you know what.. i cant take religion anymore. I still cant fathom how people in the year 2005 can beleive and follow these absurd ancient cult books. |
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister Don't take offense my man.... I don't want to call anybody out specifically, but you cannot be a athiest AND believe in Fate..... |
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister Atheism by definition is "That philosophy regards the world as it actually is, views it in the light of the data provided by progressive science and social experience. Atheistic materialism is the logical outcome of scientific knowledge gained over the centuries." So every action, every single thing that happens in life should be able to be explained by a scientific theory a reaction to stimulus. Not saying that someone cannot believe this way, but other posts by people claiming to be 'atheists' have supported a higher plane of conciousness. Atheism does not at all support this. Atheism is a belief that we are just animals, yes, animals with some intellect, but animals nonetheless. Everything is related to instinct (neural pathways in our brains slowly formed over centuries) or reaction to stimulus. |
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| Originally posted by Spankmeister Not saying that is wrong either. But if someone is going to claim to be a orange, then friggin be a orange, seeds and all.... Now I am not trying to convince anybody of anything...I believe in tolorance of anybody's beliefs...just pointing out a couple of glaring inconsistencies(sp?) that I saw... Let the debate rage on! |
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| Originally posted by LittlePoonzgirl This may be long FYI: Our current scientific models are quite flawed. Read the Holographic Universe...actually you may discount all the PHDs and MDs who worked on that due to their abstract theory. Science can really only disprove at best and isn't really all that good at it either. Why do you think Einstien was disturbed by such phenomenon as nonlocally interconnected particles. Science requires almost as much faith as religion. Keep in mind that science has also proved a probability that something you see doesn't actually exist when you go to touch it. Have you studied further than Newtonian physics? Religion is very much what people make of it. There are many different religions that all work very differently. Absurd ancient cult books...hmmm... ancient is an issue due to how well the information was recorded and now how it is translated. Cult books? I'm sure 100s of years from now people will question how we could believe such flawed scientific theories also written in books and followed by groups of people. In adition, some 'supernatural bullshit' may actually be 'proved' by science in the future. The more I study science the more I realize how much it can't explain. Too many in that community sweep things under the carpet when it doesn't fit into a current model. Or come up with random mathematics to prove whatever they want such as with string theory. Just remember, if you want prove it's a particle, it's a particle; if you want to prove its wave, then it's a wave. |
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| Originally posted by LittlePoonzgirl This may be long FYI: Our current scientific models are quite flawed. Read the Holographic Universe...actually you may discount all the PHDs and MDs who worked on that due to their abstract theory. Science can really only disprove at best and isn't really all that good at it either. Why do you think Einstien was disturbed by such phenomenon as nonlocally interconnected particles. Science requires almost as much faith as religion. Keep in mind that science has also proved a probability that something you see doesn't actually exist when you go to touch it. Have you studied further than Newtonian physics? Religion is very much what people make of it. There are many different religions that all work very differently. Absurd ancient cult books...hmmm... ancient is an issue due to how well the information was recorded and now how it is translated. Cult books? I'm sure 100s of years from now people will question how we could believe such flawed scientific theories also written in books and followed by groups of people. In adition, some 'supernatural bullshit' may actually be 'proved' by science in the future. The more I study science the more I realize how much it can't explain. Too many in that community sweep things under the carpet when it doesn't fit into a current model. Or come up with random mathematics to prove whatever they want such as with string theory. Just remember, if you want prove it's a particle, it's a particle; if you want to prove its wave, then it's a wave. |
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| Originally posted by DJ_Elyot There is a very basic principle that I think many of you are missing, and it's a principle upon which much of our anthropological knowledge is based. It's called the ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE. The anthropic principle essentially states this: "things are the way they are because if they weren't the way they are, we wouldn't be here to question their existance." Another way of summing it up is by saying, "if things were different, humans wouldn't exist, so that's why things are the way they are." For example, it can be used to answer the question "why do we live in a three-dimensional universe?" Of course, intelligent life couldn't function as we know it in two dimensions (try to consider circulation and digestion in a two-dimensional creature!). As well, most physicists agree that in four or greater dimensions, atoms would be so unstable that they would often randomly collapse on themselves, destroying any chances of complicated molecules forming. Thus, three dimensions is the only number of dimensions in which intelligent life can exist, and therefore, that's why we live in a three-dimensional universe (since in any other universe, we wouldn't be here to question it!) So when somebody asks "why did all of this wonderful life evolve on Earth?", the answer can be explained by the Anthropic Principle. The answer is simply that if life had not evolved on Earth, then we wouldn't be here to question it! Life is a prerequisite for humanity, and thus our existance is dependant on it. Anybody who knows quantum mechanics understands the seemingly random nature of the universe. If an extremely large number of monkeys started hammering random keys on typewriters, eventually one of them would type out one of Shakespeare's works. It's inevitable, given enough time (or enough monkeys!). We, as humans, don't know how many other universes there are, or even how many planets there are with the potential to create intelligent life. It is true, however, that SOME PROBABILITY EXISTS that self-replicating molecules formed out of our primordial ooze and created the first life. It doesn't matter how small the probability is; what matters is that it is NOT ZERO (and quantum mechanics prooves that this probability exists). Given enough time (or enough planets that have the potential for intelligent life to be created), IT'S INEVITABLE THAT INTELLIGENT LIFE WILL EVOLVE, with no deity or supernatural being required. Now that is by no means a proof that a god didn't create us, but it is a proof that left to its own devices, the universe would eventually produce intelligent life on its own - no god required. So why are we here to question our existance? We are the Shakespearean play that was hammered out by a monkey. We are the probability fluke that was inevitable from the creation of the universe. At least that's what I believe. I'm not saying it's impossible that a god created us; I'm just justifying my beliefs and the beliefs of others. |
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| Originally posted by DJ_Elyot I've said it before, but I'll say it again. ATHEISM IS STRICTLY A BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO GOD. Nothing more, and nothing less. It is the opposite of THEISM which is the belief in the existance of one or more gods. Atheism says nothing about fate, ESP, psychic abilities, karma, or any phenomena other than there being no god. Buddhism is in fact an atheist religion! I hope this clears things up a little. Again, you're making general statements about one very specific form of atheism. I don't think Buddhism agrees with you, but it is atheist. Atheists can in fact believe in a higher plane of consciousness. They just don't believe in god. The "glaring inconsistencies" that you see are really based on the fact that atheists can have different beliefs. My beliefs certainly don't agree with the beliefs of a Zen Buddhist; we both simply share the belief that there is no god. Assuming all atheists believe in scientific, determinist philosophy is like assuming all theists believe in Jesus, the apocalypse, etc. Not all theists share the same beliefs, so you shouldn't assume that all atheists share the same beliefs. Atheism is not a religion; it is a classification of numerous belief systems, just as theism is. ~ Elyot |
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