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-- Reasons not to pay for music
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quote:

Originally posted by isoterra to rephrase, when downloading an mp3 you aren't depriving the original owner of it, therefore it != theft. just copyright theft

And then, only if you use that copy for your own financial gain. That's why this whole home-recording thing has been such a gray area topic since tape recorders.

By the way, what about pawn shops? Technically, what they do when someone sells them their old CDs is more illegal than a P2P server, as actual funds are being exchanged without a kick-back to the original artist.

Just a little opinion:

Maybe something has been very wrong since the beginning of its existance. And what legal or illegal, only depends, not being definite.

The whole industry was evolved thru the technology development in chronicle. From copying in notation and script, to anologue object. And remember the first very moment, when people were copying script were meant to ease the others. And some clever ones are clever enough to make it become an income source. Just the same theory behind the invention of explosive. And technology keep making better lives to the majority, while it does make someone lose their jobs. Just remember when fax machine is invented, and what happened to telegram.

Human being should move on doing sth more productive to the world than their own being.

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian Stealing means to take a physical object (a plasma TV for example) from it's rightful owner without permission.

Who say's stealing applies to physical stuff only?

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra to rephrase, when downloading an mp3 you aren't depriving the original owner of it, therefore it != theft. just copyright theft

thanks, that's what i ment to say. And i didn't say that it's ok, just that there's a difference

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra when downloading an mp3 you aren't depriving the original owner of it, therefore it != theft. just copyright theft

Indeed you are not stealing the master copy, but you are stealing an artists income right?

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij Indeed you are not stealing the master copy, but you are stealing an artists income right?

The better question is -

How far would of your career have gone without kids "stealing"/"downloading" your music?

Let's be real...before the age of the internet and file sharing DJs made a lot less than they do now...if they even made it....a part from the Oakenfolds, van Dykes, Frankie Knuckles and a handful of others. It's one thing if Lars Ulrich, Mic Fleetwood, Madonna or any other super pop artist complains about file sharing..but little guys (no offence) should see it as a blessing.

I bet in late 99, early 2000, you would not of even thought twice about someone downloading your music and distributing it amongst their friends...but now that you have climbed the ranks you want to close the door on one of the major components that made your career?

Same goes for Tiesto (if he ever whines)....i am sure we can ALL dig up quotes from him where he likes MP3s and people downloading his music.

I mean think about it Benno...without filesharing...do you really honestly think you would be as big as you are?

MP3s are here to stay and artists need to embrace it...because the snowball started its roll down the hill in the mid 90s.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 The better question is - How far would of your career have gone without kids "stealing"/"downloading" your music? Let's be real...before the age of the internet and file sharing DJs made a lot less than they do now...if they even made it....a part from the Oakenfolds, van Dykes, Frankie Knuckles and a handful of others. It's one thing if Lars Ulrich, Mic Fleetwood, Madonna or any other super pop artist complains about file sharing..but little guys (no offence) should see it as a blessing. I bet in late 99, early 2000, you would not of even thought twice about someone downloading your music and distributing it amongst their friends...but now that you have climbed the ranks you want to close the door on one of the major components that made your career? Same goes for Tiesto (if he ever whines)....i am sure we can ALL dig up quotes from him where he likes MP3s and people downloading his music. I mean think about it Benno...without filesharing...do you really honestly think you would be as big as you are? MP3s are here to stay and artists need to embrace it...because the snowball started its roll down the hill in the mid 90s.

First of all, I am not whining here, it's just that i like to know your opinions

I started before the age of file sharing and had succes without it!
And let me tell you, before cd copying and mp3'ing was invented, dance labels sold multiples of what they do now.

Of course i know it has had good side effects of making certain styles of music more known in other far places.
But I am interested in the question: do people think they are stealing or not?

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 The better question is - How far would of your career have gone without kids "stealing"/"downloading" your music? Let's be real...before the age of the internet and file sharing DJs made a lot less than they do now...if they even made it....a part from the Oakenfolds, van Dykes, Frankie Knuckles and a handful of others. It's one thing if Lars Ulrich, Mic Fleetwood, Madonna or any other super pop artist complains about file sharing..but little guys (no offence) should see it as a blessing. I bet in late 99, early 2000, you would not of even thought twice about someone downloading your music and distributing it amongst their friends...but now that you have climbed the ranks you want to close the door on one of the major components that made your career? Same goes for Tiesto (if he ever whines)....i am sure we can ALL dig up quotes from him where he likes MP3s and people downloading his music. I mean think about it Benno...without filesharing...do you really honestly think you would be as big as you are? MP3s are here to stay and artists need to embrace it...because the snowball started its roll down the hill in the mid 90s.

There are still too many cheap ass' out there that don't put anymoney into the scene. I know people that wine about every $20 event being to expensive to go out.

Im sure there are tons of people on here that havnt spent more then $100 on music this year. Id guess ive spent around 10K on stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij But I am interested in the question: do people think they are stealing or not?

in my opinion ...
napster generation, no.
kazaa generation, they have an idea.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 The better question is - How far would of your career have gone without kids "stealing"/"downloading" your music? Let's be real...before the age of the internet and file sharing DJs made a lot less than they do now...if they even made it....a part from the Oakenfolds, van Dykes, Frankie Knuckles and a handful of others. It's one thing if Lars Ulrich, Mic Fleetwood, Madonna or any other super pop artist complains about file sharing..but little guys (no offence) should see it as a blessing. I bet in late 99, early 2000, you would not of even thought twice about someone downloading your music and distributing it amongst their friends...but now that you have climbed the ranks you want to close the door on one of the major components that made your career? Same goes for Tiesto (if he ever whines)....i am sure we can ALL dig up quotes from him where he likes MP3s and people downloading his music. I mean think about it Benno...without filesharing...do you really honestly think you would be as big as you are? MP3s are here to stay and artists need to embrace it...because the snowball started its roll down the hill in the mid 90s.

in his personal defence, benno was making money & doing ok for himself back then, with stuff under the quest, kamaya painters, benicio & much more.

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij First of all, I am not whining here, it's just that i like to know your opinions I started before the age of file sharing and had succes without it! And let me tell you, before cd copying and mp3'ing was invented, dance labels sold multiples of what they do now.

Of course i know it has had good side effects of making certain styles of music more known in other far places.
But I am interested in the question: do people think they are stealing or not? [/QUOTE]



OK i will answer you...yes i am stealing. Do i care? Well i don;t even think about it....because, like most people, i dont see it as stealing - even though it technically is...i guess because we arent shoplifting it, know what i mean?

You said you had success before it...i am sure you did...but I asked if you thought you would be as big as you are TODAY without filesharing? You can;t deny it has made you a whole lot MORE succesful.

Without the era of filesharing most people in NYC, if not all, would never of heard of you....nor would they of heard of Phynn, Ralphie B and the list can go on and on. Tiesto would not be on his pathetic In Concert tours and NYC would be stuck with cheesy shit still. Granted you would have the random person in a music store pick up your CD and maybe tell 4 friends about you in NYC but that doesnt really cut it right? However with filesharing i bet i can ask 6 out of 10 people in a club who Rank 1 is and they could tell me...why is that?

quote:

Originally posted by Ian^ in his personal defence, benno was making money & doing ok for himself back then, with stuff under the quest, kamaya painters, benicio & much more.

I know he had success...but not like he does now...and a lot can be thanked to filesharing. How many people do you hoesntly think would of bought Symsonic without filesharing? That CD was on every forum, people waiting for it...people hearing about it through forums...and lets be REAL here...trance forums started off partly because of filesharing.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 OK i will answer you...yes i am stealing. Do i care? Well i don;t even think about it....because, like most people, i dont see it as stealing

How contradicting....

quote:

You said you had success before it...i am sure you did...but I asked if you thought you would be as big as you are TODAY without filesharing? You can;t deny it has made you a whole lot MORE succesful.

That's a question i can't answer, but you can't either! It has been there so we can't know what if there had't been there... perhaps i was even more popular lol!

quote:

Without the era of filesharing most people in NYC, if not all, would never of heard of you....nor would they of heard of Phynn, Ralphie B and the list can go on and on. Tiesto would not be on his pathetic In Concert tours and NYC would be stuck with cheesy shit still. Granted you would have the random person in a music store pick up your CD and maybe tell 4 friends about you in NYC but that doesnt really cut it right? However with filesharing i bet i can ask 6 out of 10 people in a club who Rank 1 is and they could tell me...why is that?

I think it's the DJ's that make music popular not the file sharers if you ask me. DJ's are the people that play the music they think there audience will like they travel the world, just like mp3's do.

And one other thing: how can file sharing make me big if all those sharers hadn't support me by buying my records? I think i would deliver the post by now if they all "just made me big"..

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 I know he had success...but not like he does now...and a lot can be thanked to filesharing. How many people do you hoesntly think would of bought Symsonic without filesharing?

Can't tell, you think it would be less, I could say it could be even more, because the guys that downloaded it for free did not buy one.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 i bet i can ask 6 out of 10 people in a club who Rank 1 is and they could tell me...why is that?

because Airwave has been on every "classic" compilation since 1999 and will continue to be for the rest of benno's life j/k.

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij How contradicting.... That's a question i can't answer, but you can't either! It has been there so we can't know what if there had't been there... perhaps i was even more popular lol! I think it's the DJ's that make music popular not the file sharers if you ask me. DJ's are the people that play the music they think there audience will like they travel the world, just like mp3's do. And one other thing: how can file sharing make me big if all those sharers hadn't support me by buying my records? I think i would deliver the post by now if they all "just made me big"..

Djs only play in like 20 (more like 5-6) cities in the US. I know some people on here that havn't seen any big djs.

i think the point to consider here is that you've produced one of the biggest selling, most heard and meorable records at the height of trance's populairty. Because of that, you don't need as much promotion as someone starting out or less successfull. Rank 1 would survive without filesharing, others wouldnt.

Take a scenario where Airwave never existed. Do you think that all your follow up singles and album would of sold as many as they did if it wasnt for Airwave's success. I'd never heard of you till Airwave and then afterwards i backtracked your discog and found your kamaya painters material etc. Image and reputation are everything.

Strayign off the point a little but just throughing in another angle

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij How contradicting....

what i meant was YES technically it is stealing by law...but i, like most people, dont feel like we are stealing when we do it...perhaps because we are in our homes and not in a store and dont have anything tangable in our hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij And one other thing: how can file sharing make me big if all those sharers hadn't support me by buying my records? I think i would deliver the post by now if they all "just made me big"..

Think of it as advertising....i bought SYmsonic....not because i heard some random DJ play tunes from it in a club...but because i downloaded Black Snow and wanted more sounds from you guys.

For you to sit there and honestly say that trance, techno and even house would be where it is today, as big as it has become, without filesharing is patently absurd. Sorry...i respect you as an artist...but i think you are fooling yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by sandstorm03 Djs only play in like 20 (more like 5-6) cities in the US. I know some people on here that haven't seen any big djs.

But do you think a lot of people buy trance in the US?

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij I think it's the DJ's that make music popular not the file sharers if you ask me. DJ's are the people that play the music they think there audience will like they travel the world, just like mp3's do.

but in many respects, it's the file-sharing that has made the djs much more popular (and many will readily admit to that fact), so the calculus seems to be that file sharing is far more beneficial to djs than it is to producers.

solution for benno = get rank 1 on the road more often

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij But do you think a lot of people buy trance in the US?

I know the record shop in Boston carries trance because they say it sells, and they make more of a profit then their other records.

Ive bought 300 records this year? Like 1/2 of what i made went to music.

I know a lot of people now are starting to use Itunes & digital stores but obviously the majority just download.

Obviously though for the most part, the answer is that people will not buy music or movies if they don't have to in the us.

quote:

Originally posted by Benno de Goeij But do you think a lot of people buy trance in the US?

They do now...more than they used to.

ANd not for nothing...but the majority of people i download from are Europeans...not Americans or Canadians....go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by Konijn but in many respects, it's the file-sharing that has made the djs much more popular (and many will readily admit to that fact), so the calculus seems to be that file sharing is far more beneficial to djs than it is to producers. solution for benno = get rank 1 on the road more often

passport issues... atleast for many djs that want to playin in the states...

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 They do now...more than they used to. ANd not for nothing...but the majority of people i download from are Europeans...not Americans or Canadians....go figure.

what about your massive 50 cent collection?

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