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Why would crappy bedroom producers, digital labels etc only be affecting trance. Why aren't we seeing oversaturation in other EDM genres. Most of us tend to agree that trance isn't the most popular genre it used to be. If this is the case then surely there are more bedroom producers making house/techno than trance, more digital labels pushing these other genres so why is it only trance that is suffereng from this..???

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Originally posted by G-Con Why would crappy bedroom producers, digital labels etc only be affecting trance.

Yes, exactly.

This



is what kills importance of the musical element and creativity in trance as we know it.

Tiesto playing at Disneyland, during the Olympic Games ceremony, remixing Pirates of The Carribean in the awful way, making huge spectacular solo "concerts" etc.

I�m not bashing Tiesto, but he�s a symbol of emptiness of today�s trance. He stands in the front line with two strong weapons in his hands - marketing & hype, makes himself a pop idol and puts the musical substance behind.

We can�t be surprised that the creativity in the music production stagnates, because the so-called trance elites of the past went pop.

If I had too choose one future hero and saviour, I would probably say Sander van Doorn (he�s not 100% trance but what the heck, I don�t think 100% trance can save it). But yeah, it�s only me.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 Im thinking that our little music niche is working much in the same way a dancefloor does, nobody gets into the music when the floor is empty. We have a chicken and the egg issue to deal with before trance can get good again, we need hype to attract talented musicians, we need talented musicians to generate hype, much in the same way you need a crowd to get people to dance.

if nobody goes to the dancefloor when it's empty, than it stays empty: this is not the case.
and we don't need hype to attract talented musicians... the musicians attracted by hype are not the kind of musicians we're looking for in the first place, they're the kind that overaturates the market as it is. if anything, we need less hype.

Ehm guys... please look beyond your own backyard
In eastern europe trance parties are BOOMING, attracting big crowds, the asot 250 party in Holland filled the club at 9 o clock already , in Belgium id&t has an uber strong trance line up for tomorrowland this year (an event which attracts thousands of people) and the market in Asia is slowly opening up as well...
Cd's like in search of sunrise (you can say about it what you want but it isn't filled with commercial dance) are selling amazingly well, even with todays mp3 sharing problems...

In short, please stfu, trance is still going strong, maybe not in the usa, but be honest, it never was really big over there compared to europe. ( and still I'm reading a lot of reports about amazing trance parties in the usa so I guess some people just don't want to see the positive things still happening )

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Originally posted by paulandrews Yes, exactly. This is what kills importance of the musical element and creativity in trance as we know it. Tiesto playing at Disneyland, during the Olympic Games ceremony, remixing Pirates of The Carribean in the awful way, making huge spectacular solo "concerts" etc. I�m not bashing Tiesto, but he�s a symbol of emptiness of today�s trance. He stands in the front line with two strong weapons in his hands - marketing & hype, makes himself a pop idol and puts the musical substance behind. We can�t be surprised that the creativity in the music production stagnates, because the so-called trance elites of the past went pop. If I had too choose one future hero and saviour, I would probably say Sander van Doorn (he�s not 100% trance but what the heck, I don�t think 100% trance can save it). But yeah, it�s only me.

Not convinced by this response. Not saying your wrong but the way a lot of people on here have been bashing crappy bedroom productions and digital labels for signing these productions, I still don't see why this is only a problem in trance...

I dunno, I guess when I got into this stuff I kinda had to accept that it wasn't the cool thing to be listening to, I think alot of us had a similar situation, in that we enjoyed this music regardless of its "coolness" status, we accept alienating ourselves from the in-crowd because we are passionate about this noise. I guess I think that people who are brave enough to attempt such alienation shouldn't have to be so controled by the things that the cooler ppl say. I dunno, it just sucks alot that industry trends are keeping people who might otherwise be making great new trance tunes from doing so because of the way so many people react when they hear that T word. I think we could have better music out there if there weren't so many people afriad to be into trance because it isn't cool.

The most obvious difference I notice between 2006 and 1999, is that in 1999 trance was cool and now it isn't. Clubbers are a vain and sheepish lot, they care more about hype and whether their friends are going to the party than any "substance" in the music, your nights are failing because you aren't cool anymore, whether the decline in coolnes was caused by problems in the music is a whole separate topic though, the producers among us seem to disagree with that idea.

It looks like different ppl are wanting different things, nemesis wants more hype, psy-t wants less. There seems to be a need for a "prestigous trance pool", some sort of selection which contains a higher quality of tracks. Has anybody found any labels, DJ's, producers, shops, or anything which we can use as a starting point to create such a pool? I don't have much of an ear for production values, I tend to lean more towards appreciating the imagination in a tune in spite of crappy sound quality, so I doubt I can be of much help since nobody else likes the ameteurish crap I'm into.

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Originally posted by Estuera Ehm guys... please look beyond your own backyard In central & eastern europe trance parties are BOOMING, attracting big crowds

fixed



This is true though, month or two back, we had two huge arena parties within 7 days here in Prague.

The first one was with AvB, Marco V, Markus Schulz, Matthew Dekay... (7 000-8 000 people)

The second one was with PvD, Steve Angello, Lucca (ok not that trancey) (maybe more than 10 000 people)

Other problem is, as it was mentioned a few times already, that the club scene (which reflects the true state a bit more imo) is starving. 20 000 people come to see PvD or Armin but almost noone comes to hear trance to the club where the local djs spin and it�s almost impossible to make a regular trance night here. Clubs are mostly full of house. According to what I�ve read, this is a global problem.

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Originally posted by paulandrews fixed This is true though, month or two back, we had two huge arena parties within 7 days here in Prague. The first one was with AvB, Marco V, Markus Schulz, Matthew Dekay... (7 000-8 000 people) The second one was with PvD, Steve Angello, Lucca (ok not that trancey) (maybe more than 10 000 people) Other problem is, as it was mentioned a few times already, that the club scene (which reflects the true state a bit more imo) is starving. 20 000 people come to see PvD or Armin but almost noone comes to hear trance to the club where the local djs spin and it�s almost impossible to make a regular trance night here. Clubs are mostly full of house. According to what I�ve read, this is a global problem.

Good point. In the UK house clubs are ten a penny and very much what pulls the crowds. I don't think i know of a small trance club. If you want to hear trance, then you go to one of the bigger places. And they will only pull a crowd if they have one of the big names on the line up. It does seem that a trance night without big name DJ's just wouldn't last.

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 Has anybody found any labels, DJ's, producers, shops, or anything which we can use as a starting point to create such a pool?

labels: Spinnin, Intuition

The ASOT and generic-VST-trance haters should forget that tunes from these labels get played every thursday night and do not connect it with the show so blindly.

These are delivering quality imo.

Someone post more, I would like to know about some.

and who will be the arbiter deciding whose recomendations to take to heart and whose to ignore?


fact is, i'm not among the people complaining because 1. i listen to a lot of genres, 2. i have no problem seperating the gold from the crap. hence i'm not sure why to bother unless i know for certain that people give a shit (implying i'm not looking for the same assistance you recommend we give each other).

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 It looks like different ppl are wanting different things, nemesis wants more hype, psy-t wants less.

reading his last post, i'm clueless as to where you derived that from.

he said it right here :

"or when there's a sparse crowd to come out to see them when they do get in there due to the lack of hype/excitement about it, then you're in trouble."

I thought it was kinda obvious he was complaining about a lack of support, excitement, or "hype" for trance in many places around the world, and the lack of good music which perpetuates that lack of hype.

I think I'm in the same boat as you in not needing somebody else to tell me what is quality and what isn't (prolly because my sense of quality unusual, you prolly havea different reason). Personally I don't agree with this whole need to exclude people and create an elite pool of trance records. I am kinda giving dj nemisis the benefit of the doubt here because I really like his sets, and cuz alpha one was some of the first trance I got interested in. He seems to think that "figuring how to better support the great stuff and the pros who have stood the test of time refining their talents through experience " is what we need to do in order to improve the quality of trance out there, he has good taste so I figure even if I don't agree there is no harm in trying to do this.

The idea I'm having is trying to get this dialog going so we can determine who are these talented pros and who are the oversaturaters, and figure out a good way to separate them and tell them apart. I figured if enough people gain an understanding of who is quality and how to find them, then the "good stuff" could stick out from the crap a bit better. I too often have disagreements over this whole quality thing so I doubt I can be very helpful with this effort, but the least I can do is try to talk about it some more. I think alot of people are doing the same thing on this site, constantly recomending, bashing, arguing over who is the best and which tracks deserve glory. There are lotsa people here that seem to be running missionary campaigns to get ppl to convert their tastes and I think it's kinda stupid, but maybe they are just trying to have this dialog to improve the average quality of tunes in the pool. I guess my issue is that I dont think the ends (more recognition of quality music) justify the means (constant ridicule for those among us who just aren't into that stuff and prefer the "crap").

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 he said it right here : "or when there's a sparse crowd to come out to see them when they do get in there due to the lack of hype/excitement about it, then you're in trouble." I thought it was kinda obvious he was complaining about a lack of support, excitement, or "hype" for trance in many places around the world, and the lack of good music which perpetuates that lack of hype.

those are two different kinds of "hype"

So you think we don't need any more of that buzzword trendy tiesto kind of hype, but need more of that support/enthusiasm for music kind of hype.

I ant this too, less vain fed hype, more genuine love of music hype, but how do we make that happen? Surely with so many of us on this site we can come up with osme sort of plot to make things at least a little bit better.

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 Surely with so many of us on this site we can come up with osme sort of plot to make things at least a little bit better.

^And this is what all of you guys have to realize. Believe me I haven't spent the time posting all I have in the many pages of this thread because I have nothing better to do or am frustrated with nowhere to DJ at One month from now I'm playing the biggest DJ booking of my life so I'm quite stoked in fact, though I wouldn't have that if I was still playing trance.

The biggest mistake ANY of you guys could make is to think that you can't make much of a difference or help tip the scale in the opposite direction. It always starts with one person, followed by more people taking interest and getting focussed in the same way and jumping on board and the more people who do, the more who will follow suit. I'll mention it til your ears bleed the fact that this board was able to nearly land Mikey Mike into top 100 mixmag DJs. If you don't think that even half that amount of focus could make a huge impact with something a lot more useful like supporting and saving the music you love, you are greatly mistaken.

Estuera I am not sure how long you've been around for, but I do believe you aren't seeing the bigger picture from your comfy chair in the asot circle in your OWN backyard!
If you go to the part of the world where trance has always been the most popular, and make references to companies like ID&T and the people in the topmost circle of trance there, OF COURSE you are going to find that they are not doing badly. They will be the last ones to sink and everyone else (local & up and coming djs/producers) and every other place will be the ones that will go down first.

You might think that uk/europe is the center of the world, but there's a whole big world out there that does make a big difference. If trance completely dies out in those places and the clubs & events stop causing the fanbase to further vanish it certainly won't be anything to celebrate REGARDLESS of what's going on in the uk. You know those uk artists have always enjoyed being able to go overseas and play in the USA or Canada or many other places.. as well as appreciating the album sales that come from the fanbase there.


It's easy to understand what's gone on with the oversaturating aspect. Look at what's happened. The amateurs have been given a HUGE[ boost over the last few years and now it's easier than ever for them to be able to get into producing music without nearly the commitment it used to take. It's also easier than ever for them to get their stuff released or start up their own label if no one else will release their stuff.

So here we have this massive boost that the amateurs have been given, but without any kind of extra support towards the pros and those with well developed talent then what you have is something that has been put off balance. The whole trance ecosystem is undoubtedly off balance right now and falling in many places. How long til it reaches your front door?

Anyone who truly understands knows how essential it is to have balance. Lose balance and you will fall.

quote:

Originally posted by Estuera Ehm guys... please look beyond your own backyard In eastern europe trance parties are BOOMING, attracting big crowds, the asot 250 party in Holland filled the club at 9 o clock already , in Belgium id&t has an uber strong trance line up for tomorrowland this year (an event which attracts thousands of people) and the market in Asia is slowly opening up as well... Cd's like in search of sunrise (you can say about it what you want but it isn't filled with commercial dance) are selling amazingly well, even with todays mp3 sharing problems... In short, please stfu, trance is still going strong, maybe not in the usa, but be honest, it never was really big over there compared to europe. ( and still I'm reading a lot of reports about amazing trance parties in the usa so I guess some people just don't want to see the positive things still happening )

I TOTALLY agree with you, I have the same impression looking at the eastern Europe countries. Many don't see that Trance took over from Hardcore and Happy Hardcore in Holland. That's why there is a harder Sensation Black and a softer Sensation White. (although the Hardcore/rave scene still exists). In Belgium it always was a bit harder because of the excellent Bonzaii stuff. It's not for nothing Belgium had the biggest clubs in Europe
But this weekend we will see again how strong the scene is in Berlin

my perspective

Back in the day, like around 1996-2000ish you could easily spot people that were doing mdma. They would be much sweatier, energetic, and their mood was infectious, they could actually make people around them not on the stuff become more enthusiastic. All it took was one or two times doing the stuff dancing your ass off in a club, and you would never forget it. You could relive the experience again and again just by having a few drinks or if the music is good enough, not even any drinks. There was an old saying about E, when you get the message, hang up the phone.

Within the past few years, mdma is impossible to find. Everything sold as ecstasy is MDA, which is totally different. MDA is like a lazy version of mdma. It doesn't encourage you to get up and move and sweat, instead you're more prone to sinking in the couch. When you dance on it, you're more in the mood to just bop around side to side at a slower tempo.

This is just part of it, but I think this is why house has taken over in small clubs/small dancefloors. House works well with people on mda. You don't move around as much, so girls can wear high heels. And you dont sweat as much, so girls dont melt their makeup. In comes the bling bling. On mda, if you put on higher tempo trance, its so intense it just blasts you and you want to just sit and absorb the sounds. You will dance to it for a while but you'll get dizzy and sit down.

The other part of it is trance works better with a big crowd/arena. House works better for smaller places, hence the name. That's why you don't see small trance parties or trance nights in small clubs. That's also why you don't see electro being played in front of a crowd of 20,000. Could you imagine electro being played at the olympics? Or when the volvo boat race kicked off in Holland? People would be like w ... t ... f is ... this crap?

In my years of clubbing in Tampa and when I lived in San Fran, I've never seen small trance nights at small clubs. Are you guys saying back in the infamous year of 1999 all you'd hear is trance? Opening trance sets at 10pm in small clubs, big clubs, trance all night long? Wow. I never saw such a thing. I can't imagine. Maybe I've been ignorant or don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe its just the area of the US I've grown up clubbing to. I'm 30 btw.

What I have noticed in the past, is trance would come on later in the night. Clubs would have house djs play the earlier timeslots, and then trance would come on later. More people were rolling their face off on MDMA. What I have noticed recently now, is HOUSE HOUSE HOUSE, all night long. NOBODY on mdma. And alot of high-heels and sunglasses.

I guess I'm in the minority that thinks trance has improved. I think it started getting really great at 2002 on. Tracks like solarcoaster, perfect silence, obsession, monkey forest, mindcircus. I listen to so many trance sets, and the ones from the older era, were all too trancy, they would definitely put you into a trance allright, a zombie mode. ASOT is like this too. It sounds nice and all but its not for dancing, its more for geeks at computer jobs to listen to in the background at work.

The days of baggy pants, backpacks and candy are GONE. That was a 60's hippy culture, kids that were goofy/picked on in school had a place to be accepted. But at the same time, it was music and culture that practically required mdma to appreciate/understand. It's an evolution, when something new comes out, people overdo it to death. When electric guitars came out, everyone overdid it like crazy because it was the new thing. Eventually keyboards and other sounds trickled in to rock. When mdma came out, people overdid it like crazy with raves and such where you have to be on mdma to enjoy it. Now house and other sounds are trickling into trance to where you can appreciate it as a normal form of music, and raves disappear (but law enforcement has a part in that too). So when something new comes out, people overdo it and then it balances out, that's what's happening to trance. It's becoming more like classical music, and Mozart, Beethoven etc are considered the greatest musical composers of all time. It's becoming such great music, that it can be played at the olympics and huge public gatherings, and people of all ages and cultures can appreciate it. 10 years ago, I never would imagine this happening, with this subculture music, that was for so long frowned upon for its association with unacceptable behavior/drugs, to be taken seriously on a global scale. God bless trance and may it continue on in the direction it's going.

We learned it all from MDA.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews labels: Spinnin, Intuition The ASOT and generic-VST-trance haters should forget that tunes from these labels get played every thursday night and do not connect it with the show so blindly. These are delivering quality imo. Someone post more, I would like to know about some.

Intuition is probably the worst new label to come out. It's all orchestra trance with no energy.

Re: my perspective

I agree with U stev�sto.

Trance has always, and still does, give the listener the most innate, unique and unbelievable feeling, and as far as Im concerned, If producers produce it, and still produce it well, Trance will never die, it will just go through the manifestations of a genre that are necessary for any type of music, from pop through to classical. Dont immediately claim that Trance is dead when it is undergoing a process of change, instead embrace it for what it is and go along for the ride, TRANCE FOREVER

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Originally posted by ders07 Trance has always, and still does, give the listener the most innate, unique and unbelievable feeling, and as far as Im concerned, If producers produce it, and still produce it well, Trance will never die, it will just go through the manifestations of a genre that are necessary for any type of music, from pop through to classical. Dont immediately claim that Trance is dead when it is undergoing a process of change, instead embrace it for what it is and go along for the ride, TRANCE FOREVER

plur dude, PLUR

That's one long sentence.

quote:

Originally posted by ders07 Trance has always, and still does, give the listener the most innate, unique and unbelievable feeling, and as far as Im concerned, If producers produce it, and still produce it well, Trance will never die, it will just go through the manifestations of a genre that are necessary for any type of music, from pop through to classical. Dont immediately claim that Trance is dead when it is undergoing a process of change, instead embrace it for what it is and go along for the ride, TRANCE FOREVER

great sentiment. However you could either be passive and go along for the ride and enjoy the old "ignorance is bliss" ideology naively riding right into the ocean, or maybe take a closer look at the road signs and try to TURN THE BUS AROUND!

Ignorance is bliss, but only til reality smacks you upside the head!

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