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Posted by RJT on May-09-2008 16:49:

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I've only read the last two pages, but I'm with you on this one based on what I've seen.

The problem is that you don't get to make arguments like the one you're simplifying here by saying:

01. There are loads of kids stuck "in the system."

/:. Adoption is a bad practice that we should rethink.

It's very much like saying:

01. If you brush your teeth, you won't get cavities.

/:. The reason you get a cavity is because you haven't brushed your teeth.

In both cases you're only giving someone half the facts and offering a conclusion based on evidence that is suspect.

An important (and large) segment of kids who are "in the system" are being forgotten here, namely those who don't go "into the system" at birth.

Initially, all Theresa had to say was:

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa

I don't think highly of people who put their children up for adoption... to put it lightly.

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
Personally, I don't think any mother should give birth if they have no intention of keeping the child. I know that sounds horrible, and as much as I luv you Ange, that doesn't change my opinion.

I don't know much about how you were adopted, or at what age, but for the majority of children, if they are not adopted at a young age, many are left in the system.

If this practice were discontinued, there would be a lot less homeless and unloved children, and a lot less resources spent on taking care of them. Not to mention that a lot of them do not become upstanding citizens and then continue to use the system as adults.

You were lucky, but not all children that are put up for adoption get to be so lucky.

To me, giving your child up for adoption is ultimately a selfish thing. Anyone can try and provide a good life to their child.... those people couldn't be bothered. It isn't that hard to get a job, and there are plenty of "assistance" programs. It's a matter of not wanting to own up to their mistakes and change their lives to accommodate for it. Instead, they abandon their child for someone else to take care of.

My feeling is that if you make a mess, you better clean it up. Why should anyone else do that for you? And in the situation of adoption, why should a child be potentially put into a life of suffering? *Yes, I know not all of them suffer*.

Anyway, I can't find numbers right now, but the amount of children that go unadopted every year is sickening, and I think it needs to stop.

All of this amounts to nothing more than: "People who give children up for adoption are bad people who I have no respect for. Just look at all the kids who don't get adopted, they grow up to be complete shit (not to mention the ones who do)! Clearly adoption doesn't work!"

Which couldn't be further from the truth (unless someone here can provide me with solid evidence that the majority of children given up for adoption at birth wind up being raised to adulthood by the government).

So while maybe a generous reading of Theresa could leave you with the impression of "Adoption doesn't always work" - that's really not at all what she was saying. Not even close.

Posted by Lebezniatnikov on May-09-2008 22:30:

quote:
Originally posted by RJT

All of this amounts to nothing more than: "People who give children up for adoption are bad people who I have no respect for. Just look at all the kids who don't get adopted, they grow up to be complete shit (not to mention the ones who do)! Clearly adoption doesn't work!"

Which couldn't be further from the truth (unless someone here can provide me with solid evidence that the majority of children given up for adoption at birth wind up being raised to adulthood by the government).

So while maybe a generous reading of Theresa could leave you with the impression of "Adoption doesn't always work" - that's really not at all what she was saying. Not even close.

That's definitely not how I interpreted her argument. I see it as follows:

1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea.
2. Adoption, often propped up as a solution to the problem, does not always work out very well either. In fact, many times it can create emotional damage, etc.
3. Abortion can eliminate the problems raised by 1. and 2.

Depending on your view of abortion and the beginning of life, a good argument for option number 3 can be given. I haven't seen her call parents that give their child up for adoption bad people. She simply defended abortion as an act chosen out of love (in some cases).

Posted by Ian on May-09-2008 22:39:

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea.

You have no idea how many people do just that here. Most of them are teenage mums, who were born themselves to teenage mums, or dads who left early, little self respect, get pregnant, get given a house, money & lots of incentives, so it's encouraging them to breed like flies with no respect for anything. For example, my mums best friends daughter, 21, 2 kids by 2 dads, twice divorced, already engaged to a third person, more handouts than a big issue seller, wasting money that would be better spent on coathangers.

Posted by Silky Johnson on May-09-2008 22:41:

Posted by RJT on May-09-2008 23:03:

Posted by noikeee on May-10-2008 00:01:

quote:
Originally posted by Ian
my mums best friends daughter, 21, 2 kids by 2 dads, twice divorced, already engaged to a third person

I can't decide if that's sad or funny.

Posted by RandomGirl on May-10-2008 01:11:

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
That's definitely not how I interpreted her argument. I see it as follows:

1. Raising a child without the means to do so or the proper care is a bad idea.
2. Adoption, often propped up as a solution to the problem, does not always work out very well either. In fact, many times it can create emotional damage, etc.
3. Abortion can eliminate the problems raised by 1. and 2.

Depending on your view of abortion and the beginning of life, a good argument for option number 3 can be given. I haven't seen her call parents that give their child up for adoption bad people. She simply defended abortion as an act chosen out of love (in some cases).

I appreciate that you can see where I am coming from.

quote:
Originally posted by jennypie
Yeah I definitely see that in her argument as well. I think it just got misconstrued when she got defensive is all.

Well, it has been the trend as of late, to take anything I say and turn it into "attack Theresa and make her feel stupid". It is never a logical debate of what I have said, just more of an accusatory bombardment, or an argument against something that was never said in the first place. A lot of the time I end up defending something that had nothing to do with the conversation to begin with.

It is hard not to get slightly side tracked when so many people start firing questions and accusations, and making claims on your character. Often times this is the reason I stop replying... there is a point where I figure - why should I bother?

A lot of people here seem to want to jump all over a misconceived statement, out of context, and twist it into something entirely irrelevant. Having 5 or 6 people telling me how stupid I am, and how shitty of a person I am, and simply saying that I may as well be considered mentally challenged makes it a little hard to have a normal conversation. How can you possibly have a normal conversation or argue a point when the person simply says "no, you're wrong and stupid", and leaves it at that? OR instead just misconstrues what you're saying, and puts words in your mouth? There is no logical way to argue that.

It is a good method however to get someone else to give up and make you feel like you were right and that you "win". There are plenty of people here who have the tendency of thriving off that.

I STILL haven't had anyone logically argue my original point against me in this thread. I almost wonder if some of the people who backed off realized that they made a hasty judgment but are too proud to admit it.

quote:
Originally posted by RJT

All of this amounts to nothing more than: "People who give children up for adoption are bad people who I have no respect for. Just look at all the kids who don't get adopted, they grow up to be complete shit (not to mention the ones who do)! Clearly adoption doesn't work!"

Which couldn't be further from the truth (unless someone here can provide me with solid evidence that the majority of children given up for adoption at birth wind up being raised to adulthood by the government).

So while maybe a generous reading of Theresa could leave you with the impression of "Adoption doesn't always work" - that's really not at all what she was saying. Not even close.

Rob, you're still trying to argue something or accuse me of saying something that was never implied.

I never said all people who give their children up are bad... in fact I explicitly said that I don't think that. I also said that there are a lot of children who are left unadopted, and don't lead the best of lives... I did not say they were shit, and I also explicitly said that not all have it bad. And again... I have said quite blatantly that for the way things are, adoption is a good thing, even though much of it isn't always positive.

I have provided a link in one of my posts that shows the stats regarding children being adopted, and unadopted. If you know how to read a chart or could be bothered, you would see that there is an incredible number of people who are raised by the government.

You're finally right on the last one... I wasn't simply stating "adoption doesn't always work", however it seems that you are having tremendous difficulty actually trying to figure out what I did say.

If you'd like, I could quote myself if that would make things easier for you to understand.

Posted by Ian on May-10-2008 09:47:

quote:
Originally posted by noikeee
I can't decide if that's sad or funny.

pretty much both

Posted by noikeee on May-10-2008 12:59:

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
Rob, you're still trying to argue something or accuse me of saying something that was never implied.

I never said all people who give their children up are bad... in fact I explicitly said that I don't think that. I also said that there are a lot of children who are left unadopted, and don't lead the best of lives... I did not say they were shit, and I also explicitly said that not all have it bad. And again... I have said quite blatantly that for the way things are, adoption is a good thing, even though much of it isn't always positive.

I have provided a link in one of my posts that shows the stats regarding children being adopted, and unadopted. If you know how to read a chart or could be bothered, you would see that there is an incredible number of people who are raised by the government.

You're finally right on the last one... I wasn't simply stating "adoption doesn't always work", however it seems that you are having tremendous difficulty actually trying to figure out what I did say.

If you'd like, I could quote myself if that would make things easier for you to understand.

This argument seems to have gone to all kinds of nonsense by both parts, but I'll remind you of what actually started all this reaction by RJT and others:

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
I don't think highly of people who put their children up for adoption... to put it lightly.

Then a couple posts later, the same position but slightly "softened"..

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
I am sure there are a lot of people who have put their children up for adoption that weren't entirely bad people. However, I highly doubt that they make up the majority, and therefore, my general opinion regarding those people is not a particularly good one.

And so on, and so on. You basically started this discussion with an extreme position on the issue, then gradually started "softing it up", and now you deny you were ever extreme on it.

Posted by RJT on May-10-2008 16:27:

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa

Rob, you're still trying to argue something or accuse me of saying something that was never implied.

Read the posts I quoted and try to tell me that.

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
I never said all people who give their children up are bad... in fact I explicitly said that I don't think that. I also said that there are a lot of children who are left unadopted, and don't lead the best of lives... I did not say they were shit, and I also explicitly said that not all have it bad. And again... I have said quite blatantly that for the way things are, adoption is a good thing, even though much of it isn't always positive.

No, you're backpedaling now because people jumped on your shit. Again, read the posts that started all of this over again.

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
I have provided a link in one of my posts that shows the stats regarding children being adopted, and unadopted. If you know how to read a chart or could be bothered, you would see that there is an incredible number of people who are raised by the government.

You provided one link to a chart regarding overall adoption statistics, you didn't address the contextual issues I raised with you in the least. You're using one bit of information to support a point that it just doesn't logically support. Sorry, it isn't my fault that you honestly don't have a clue how to argue for your own position.

quote:
Originally posted by Theresa
You're finally right on the last one... I wasn't simply stating "adoption doesn't always work", however it seems that you are having tremendous difficulty actually trying to figure out what I did say.

If you'd like, I could quote myself if that would make things easier for you to understand.

I already did quote you, and it seems the only person struggling here to "get it" is you. You've also repeatedly failed to address a single question or issue I posed to you, and have really said nothing meaningful other than that you think I'm a "big meanie."

quote:
Originally posted by noikeee

And so on, and so on. You basically started this discussion with an extreme position on the issue, then gradually started "softing it up", and now you deny you were ever extreme on it.

Which is always how it goes - the same exact thing occurred in the pot thread, and the same thing will happen in the future.

Posted by Axer on Jun-20-2008 03:11:

I want to adopt a little

Posted by Silky Johnson on Jun-20-2008 03:16:

Why the FUCK would you bump this thread??

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jun-20-2008 03:21:

quote:
Originally posted by Axer
I want to adopt a little

a little what?

Posted by l�cid on Jun-20-2008 03:22:

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
a little what?

midget.

Posted by gehzumteufel on Jun-20-2008 03:24:

niglet

Posted by Axer on Jun-20-2008 03:41:

Posted by nrjizer on Jun-20-2008 04:27:

A friend of mine once had a pig as a pet growing up. Fucking thing weighed well over 300lbs, and it would eat absolutely anything it could get it's mouth on (including bacon and pork rinds). It never roamed far, so they just let it live in their yard. It even survived being outside during a rather strong tornado (I think a tree fell on its doghouse too... still couldn't off that big mother******).

Posted by iammesol on Jun-20-2008 04:28:

Wow, you really do live in Bumfuck, Tom

Posted by nrjizer on Jun-20-2008 04:28:

Actually, the funny thing is that this took place in a rather affluent white yuppie suburb of Atlanta.

Posted by tubularbills on Jun-20-2008 04:29:

so...........i might adopt a dog tomorrow

Posted by iammesol on Jun-20-2008 04:29:

Welcome to the South.

Posted by tubularbills on Jun-20-2008 04:30:

quote:
Originally posted by iammesol
Welcome to the South.

I'M LEAVING THE SOUTH I'M SO SAD

Posted by iammesol on Jun-20-2008 04:32:

quote:
Originally posted by tubularbills
I'M LEAVING THE SOUTH I'M SO SAD

What? I'm sorry. I can't understand your northern accent

Posted by tubularbills on Jun-20-2008 05:07:

quote:
Originally posted by iammesol
What? I'm sorry. I can't understand your northern accent

ima levin da souf ima sad

Posted by RJT on Jun-20-2008 05:08:

lol, I remember this thread.

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