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Alright back to the original topic we go.


I just cant believe how on earth the polls show a head to head battle between the parties.I mean FFS those people down there really dont care about having another 4 years of the same shit or worse?

To Purchase

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Originally posted by Knox To Purchase

LOL the Sarahnator!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Alright back to the original topic we go. I just cant believe how on earth the polls show a head to head battle between the parties.I mean FFS those people down there really dont care about having another 4 years of the same shit or worse?

call me cynical but I really think that Obama's race is going to hurt him with a lot of "average" Americans. I've already seen a few brief reports addressing the race issue on Anderson Cooper 360 (fairly unbiased reporting in my opinion) and they interviewed Democrat organisers in Ohio areas that supported Hillary strongly...they said that over half of the people they phone believe that Obama is Muslim.

I mean, really, how can you expect him to get a message through to people like that? I'm starting to suspect that the Republicans can smear and distract their way to a slim victory once again. I hope the Democratic strategists are getting some kind of counter attack ready.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I mean, really, how can you expect him to get a message through to people like that? I'm starting to suspect that the Republicans can smear and distract their way to a slim victory once again. I hope the Democratic strategists are getting some kind of counter attack ready.

Most American democrats don't trust Obama. Some unfortunately because of who he is as a person and some because of his policies.
I'm a democrat and I don't like him. Why does he seem to think that taxing big corporations is going to help the little people?

Taxing Corporations = consumers paying higher prices or workers getting their wages cut. The corporations aren't going to reduce their profits because the government has decided to tax them.

Obama says that if he gets elected everyone is going to prosper...how will Americans prosper when they're paying more for products or getting their wages cut due to high taxes on these companies?

Also you can't just install a government run medical system in a country that's never had it. People think taxes won't go up with Obama but how can you have a government run medical system without the funds? I seriously doubt the government has enough money now.

Neither candidate are what the economy in the US needs right now.

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Originally posted by KaiLee Neither candidate are what the economy in the US needs right now.

Exactly my thought. Regardless of who gets elected it will be 'more of the same', as in, inability to properly budget a country. Plus none of them have brought up the issue of the federal reserve which is scary considering how integral it was to sad state of current economic affairs.

Need some more money? No problem. Hey China, wanna give us another loan? Sure! Boys, start those presses!

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Originally posted by Orko Need some more money? No problem. Hey China, wanna give us another loan? Sure! Boys, start those presses!

Gotta love how the US is borrowing loans from a government they "don't agree with" Economics > Politics these days sadly enough.

How does Obama expect to start up a government run medical program for all citizens when the country has such a huge deficit to begin with? If people don't think taxes will be raised well that's just silly.


Is anyone else watching the Presidential Forum on National Service?

I only got to hear Obama's part but I have to say I liked how he would have reacted to 9-11 if he were President then. He didn't do as badly as I thought he would have in a one on one interview. Were the questions given to the candidates before? Probably so but either way he did a nice job from what I heard.

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Originally posted by KaiLee Gotta love how the US is borrowing loans from a government they "don't agree with"

Don't worry, they won't pay it back.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Don't worry, they won't pay it back.

I guess they were following the old rule of "never borrow money from friends"

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Originally posted by KaiLee Most American democrats don't trust Obama. Some unfortunately because of who he is as a person and some because of his policies. I'm a democrat and I don't like him. Why does he seem to think that taxing big corporations is going to help the little people? Taxing Corporations = consumers paying higher prices or workers getting their wages cut. The corporations aren't going to reduce their profits because the government has decided to tax them. Obama says that if he gets elected everyone is going to prosper...how will Americans prosper when they're paying more for products or getting their wages cut due to high taxes on these companies? Also you can't just install a government run medical system in a country that's never had it. People think taxes won't go up with Obama but how can you have a government run medical system without the funds? I seriously doubt the government has enough money now. Neither candidate are what the economy in the US needs right now.

Democrats don't trust Obama? you mean the more than 18 million who voted for him in the primaries and the estimated 80% of Hillary supporters (also 18 something million) that have now gone over to Obama's side? Ok...

Ok, here's a few contradictions. Obama is a Democrat. Democrats tend to spend more on the country's infrastructure. So, stating that you're a Democrat and then criticising Obama for wanting government to do more (which does cost money) doesn't make sense. How can he be a Democrat if he does not espouse entrenched Democrat values? Besides, Hillary Clinton was way more to the left than Obama. She would have spent more than double what Obama plans to spend on national healthcare.

Also, what exactly are you basing this typical Republican fear mongering that raising taxes on corporations is an evil sin? Clinton raised them significantly on the richer classes (why do you think the conservative base hates him so much to this day?) and on corporations, and then presided over the best period of economic growth in the United States since the 1950s. Bill Clinton was a so called "left wing Democrat" who taxed more and spent more, but managed to bring unforseen success to the American economy. Look at what has happened to that booming economy since Bush took over and started cutting spending on everything (except the armed forces of course). This trust (or is it fear?) in the corporate world really scares me. Why so much trust in the energy, oil and insurance industries, for example? They have been FUCKING us ALL, north and south of the border, for DECADES! All of them have been posting RECORD PROFITS when everyone else has been forced to cut back. It's about time they start paying a higher percetage. What are they going to do? Ship jobs out? Ok ship them out and lose all federal tax breaks, which then go to companies who ACTUALLY KEEP jobs in our country. Think about it!

Historically, Democrats have done a MUCH SUPERIOR job at running the American economy when in power in the 20th Century. FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Carter and Clinton are testaments to this, while the American economy went into near recession under Reagan, Bush Senior and now again with Bush Junior. Republican trickle down economics DOES NOT WORK. Why is this not clear?

I suspect that you dont' really understand what Democratic (and left leaning) values are actually about, or else you would put your trust in Obama over McCain. McCain has no appeal to Democrats who actually believe in and understand their Party's principles.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Also, what exactly are you basing this typical Republican fear mongering that raising taxes on corporations is an evil sin? Clinton raised them significantly on the richer classes (why do you think the conservative base hates him so much to this day?) Ω

Clinton also did this on a lower cost of living and when gas with 90 cents a gallon in the US (my parents moved to North Carolina in 96 and gas was that price).
What Clinton did was excellent but he also did these things on a little bit better situation economically. If Obama gets elected I really hope he can change the country like he speaks of.
Same with McCain! America needs someone in the middle of these two at the moment....they're both too extreme of a jump for the fragility of the US right now.

Raising any taxes right now in the US is a STUPID idea.

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Originally posted by KaiLee Clinton also did this on a lower cost of living and when gas with 90 cents a gallon in the US (my parents moved to North Carolina in 96 and gas was that price). What Clinton did was excellent but he also did these things on a little bit better situation economically. If Obama gets elected I really hope he can change the country like he speaks of. Same with McCain! America needs someone in the middle of these two at the moment....they're both too extreme of a jump for the fragility of the US right now. Raising any taxes right now in the US is a STUPID idea.

You're basing this on what, exactly?

Have you actually looked at Obama's tax plan? I'll break it down for you.

The only people's taxes who will go up are those who make over $250,000 annually. How many of us here make that? How many Americans make that per year? About five percent, to be exact. Do you know how much people's taxes will go up who make between 250,000 and 600,000 per year? About twelve dollars.

The BIG difference are the top 1% earners....those priveledged few who are greedy and don't feel the need to assist their fellow citizens in any way through paying taxes on a progressive tax code. They stand to be significantly taxed, an increase of something like 50 to 100 grand a year in taxes. But you konw what...those people can fucking afford it. They've been getting tax breaks for the last eight years and it hasn't stimulated much economic growth. Instead, people can't afford their homes, they're losing their jobs, have no healthcare and are racking up more and more debt as gas, food and energy rise uncontrollably. Yet Bush and McCain think it's ok to keep spending billions of dollars on their failed foreign policy.

I'm guessing you are working or middle class like the majority of us here, or else why would you be a self proclaimed Democrat? If you are, then you stand to personally gain MORE with Obama's tax plan than you do with McCain's, yet you think they're both wrong and won't vote? That's precisely what will land you (are you American or not?) and the United States with a McCain presidency.

Obama isn't perfect, but at least he cares about real people. McCain's attempt to do so is laughably bad.

I don't understand the idea of lowering taxes when the government is bleeding billions of dollars each month on the war alone. Doesn't the government need tax dollars to operate? The whole idea of running a campaign on lowering taxes when we have the largest federal deficit in history is rediculous.

At least Barack Obama is smart enough to realize that the middle class needs to keep more of their income over the top 5% of this nation. If the top 5% has a problem with paying a little extra then they can really go fuck themselves. It's as simple as that.

Barack Obama came from the same beginnings as a lot of people in this country who are trying to do better than the previous generation. He's young, brilliant and in touch with what America needs right now.

John McCain on the other hand is a product of his military family. He enlisted because it was his legacy. Post-military he went to Washington. Then along that journey he met and married Cindy, a woman worth $100M. Something tells me he really doesn't have a clue what America needs right now. Look where tough foreign policy has gotten us over the past 8 years.

And Sarah Palin (to get back on topic) is a dumb bitch from podunk Alaska who should have respecfully declined the offer to be vice president and not put this country in greater risk. Lord knows we don't need any rifle-toting, anti-abortion, god-first, hick governors from ALASKA (can we say that again) ALASKA being the vice president, and potential president of this country. Bush sounded like a dumb ass with his Texan accent, now we have this bitch with her Fargo accent talking about being tough on Russia! If you're scared raise your hand.

But Barack Obama will win. The novelty of Mrs. Palin will wear off and people will realize that McCain and Dumb-bitch really are more of the same and you can't stop a revolution.

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Originally posted by DannyPINK I don't understand the idea of lowering taxes when the government is bleeding billions of dollars each month on the war alone. Doesn't the government need tax dollars to operate? The whole idea of running a campaign on lowering taxes when we have the largest federal deficit in history is rediculous. At least Barack Obama is smart enough to realize that the middle class needs to keep more of their income over the top 5% of this nation. If the top 5% has a problem with paying a little extra then they can really go fuck themselves. It's as simple as that.

This is really the simple truth. In a way, it is almost like a class struggle. Why the Republicans have been able to convince so many Americans that they are the "party of the people", I have a hard time in understanding....better able to connect on a more cultural level I suppose, despite the idiotic policies that produce situations like the present one.

The Democrats are the the party for the average, working or middle class citizen in the United States. If you look at your life right now and examine which party can help you the MOST, Obama's ideas should win you over. The election has to be about the issues!

I had to laugh when McCain couldn't answer a reporter's question about how many houses he had.

Re. Taxes: Unfortunately tax relief has an immediate, quantifiable benefit to Americans, and that gets votes rather than a policy that takes your money and promises to spend it on certain social benefits that can't really be measured. A tax cut is money in pocket and boy do americans need it right now.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The only people's taxes who will go up are those who make over $250,000 annually. How many of us here make that? How many Americans make that per year? About five percent, to be exact. Do you know how much people's taxes will go up who make between 250,000 and 600,000 per year? About twelve dollars. The BIG difference are the top 1% earners....those priveledged few who are greedy and don't feel the need to assist their fellow citizens in any way through paying taxes on a progressive tax code.

So you are saying that just because people earn more money they should have to pay more taxes? People who earn more are less entitled to keep their money? A lot of 'rich' people saved, went to college, and got training to earn that extra bit. They WORKED for it. Just the same a lot of poor people are working to earn their smaller wages. Nobody is less entitled to their money, just because they had the opportunity or foresight to get an education and increase their earning potential.

Greedy people? The majority of rich people I have met have been extremely kind and generous people. And, you are forgetting that they are ALREADY paying more in that progressive tax system. Some of those rich elite pay more in taxes than most people even make in a year. How is that not fair? They are carrying their load.

Before you start spewing out your leftist/rightist/liberal/conservo labels, I voted liberal last time, and my family has spent most of their lives in poverty, here and in India. But, now that my family members are making more, in a higher tax bracket, I feel they should be allowed to keep it. They worked their asses off for that income range, so it was money well earned.

As for Clinton being an economic savior, and Bush's being the bad news bears; do you at all look at economic cycles? Clinton was not the guru you think he was. He pretty much inherited an economy that was bound to rebound. After a recession, where does the country go? UP! I agree that Bush Jr. has farther spent the country into a recession that was bound to happen. But, just do not chalk it up to one government's policies vs the next. The economy and their forces are too big, and too international to be so wholly affected by the sitting party's economic policies.

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Originally posted by Skipper I had to laugh when McCain couldn't answer a reporter's question about how many houses he had. Re. Taxes: Unfortunately tax relief has an immediate, quantifiable benefit to Americans, and that gets votes rather than a policy that takes your money and promises to spend it on certain social benefits that can't really be measured. A tax cut is money in pocket and boy do americans need it right now.

but Obama's approach to taxes actually gives working and middle classes a tax cut three times the size what John McCain proposes.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The only people's taxes who will go up are those who make over $250,000 annually. How many of us here make that? How many Americans make that per year? About five percent, to be exact. Do you know how much people's taxes will go up who make between 250,000 and 600,000 per year? About twelve dollars.

Source? 42 million bucks is not enough to make an election issue, especially when a good chunk of America's wealthy are republicans...that number seems far too low.

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Originally posted by Orko So you are saying that just because people earn more money they should have to pay more taxes? People who earn more are less entitled to keep their money? A lot of 'rich' people saved, went to college, and got training to earn that extra bit. They WORKED for it. Just the same a lot of poor people are working to earn their smaller wages. Nobody is less entitled to their money, just because they had the opportunity or foresight to get an education and increase their earning potential. Greedy people? The majority of rich people I have met have been extremely kind and generous people. And, you are forgetting that they are ALREADY paying more in that progressive tax system. Some of those rich elite pay more in taxes than most people even make in a year. How is that not fair? They are carrying their load. Before you start spewing out your leftist/rightist/liberal/conservo labels, I voted liberal last time, and my family has spent most of their lives in poverty, here and in India. But, now that my family members are making more, in a higher tax bracket, I feel they should be allowed to keep it. They worked their asses off for that income range, so it was money well earned. As for Clinton being an economic savior, and Bush's being the bad news bears; do you at all look at economic cycles? Clinton was not the guru you think he was. He pretty much inherited an economy that was bound to rebound. After a recession, where does the country go? UP! I agree that Bush Jr. has farther spent the country into a recession that was bound to happen. But, just do not chalk it up to one government's policies vs the next. The economy and their forces are too big, and too international to be so wholly affected by the sitting party's economic policies.

yes, I am saying that people who make upwards of half to 1 million dollars a year should pay more taxes. Why? Because they can afford it. So basically what you're saying is that your parents became millionaires so they shouldn't have to pay taxes...? Your family made it big so fuck the rest of the people still struggling to get by in every day life eh? Hmmm....well I'm happy that you've "risen" in society beyond us common folk and lived the canadian dream or whatever it is you're going on about. It really does all boil down to greed in the end anyway.

And just so you know, I too have worked hard over the last ten years to get where I am. I have three degrees and will probably top out at just under a six figure salary by the time I'm settled. Respectable, upper middle salary class I suppose. But I will never abandon my principles in order for a difference of a few thousand dollars in tax...I really doubt I will.

Besides, under Obama's plan in the US, someone like me would stand to get a bigger tax cut ANYWAY so I'm not sure where you were going with all of this in relation to the American election.


So wait a second here...you're saying that it was just coincidence that Reagan presided over a recession (it was all Carter's fault?) and then Bush couldn't do anything with Reagan's mess, but when Clinton took over, the problem fixed itself, but now has gone bad again on its own? Hmmm.....

He did not say that wealthy should pay NO taxes, he said they should pay the same taxes as everyone else. (I assume on a % basis)

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Originally posted by Skipper Source? 42 million bucks is not enough to make an election issue, especially when a good chunk of America's wealthy are republicans...that number seems far too low.

both Obama and McCain's tax plans were broken down last night on Anderson Cooper 360 on CNN. I'm sure you can google it and something will come up. The only income level REALLY affected in the US by a tax increase were those who made over $600,000 a year, while, of course, those people stood to have a HUGE amount of tax cut under McCain's plan.

Working/middle classes who earned under $250,000 stood to have a tax break of about $500 to $1000 compared to McCain's cut of just over 300 dollars.

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Originally posted by Skipper He did not say that wealthy should pay NO taxes, he said they should pay the same taxes as everyone else.

oh come on, a flat tax? Didn't Preston Manning propose that back in the 1990s?

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Originally posted by Skipper Source? 42 million bucks is not enough to make an election issue, especially when a good chunk of America's wealthy are republicans...that number seems far too low.

I really have no idea what you're talking about here.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I really have no idea what you're talking about here.

350million americans x 1% x 12 bucks each tax increase = 42M

Why even bother raising taxes and making it an election issue for such a small amt of money?

And I beileve Orko was talking about paying the same % of taxes, not the same $.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 yes, I am saying that people who make upwards of half to 1 million dollars a year should pay more taxes. Why? Because they can afford it. So basically what you're saying is that your parents became millionaires so they shouldn't have to pay taxes...? Your family made it big so fuck the rest of the people still struggling to get by in every day life eh? Hmmm....well I'm happy that you've "risen" in society beyond us common folk and lived the canadian dream or whatever it is you're going on about. It really does all boil down to greed in the end anyway. So wait a second here...you're saying that it was just coincidence that Reagan presided over a recession (it was all Carter's fault?) and then Bush couldn't do anything with Reagan's mess, but when Clinton took over, the problem fixed itself, but not has gone back again on its own? Hmmm.....

Nope, sorry. My family members not rich, we just are not poor anymore (middle class). I said nothing about being rich, just about breaking into a new tax bracket. But what I am saying is that they are no less entitled to keep their money. Very simple. If somebody has found a more efficient and effective way of sustaining them selves, they should not be peanalised for it. That is the whole idea behind a capitalist society. People who find the more efficient way are rewarded.

For the economic cycles, it is not automatic. Read what I said:

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I agree that Bush Jr. has farther spent the country into a recession that was bound to happen. But, just do not chalk it up to one government's policies vs the next. The economy and their forces are too big, and too international to be so wholly affected by the sitting party's economic policies.

I said the exact opposite of what you are accusing me of. It is not one thing. It is many things. The government can in fact work with or work against market forces, for good and bad. Don't be so quick to blame JUST the party, or to promote JUST the party. Look at the economy as a whole, and look at other market forces. You know..like a d.com bubble crash? Or the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 80's. The local government is not 100% responsible for the current state of economic affairs.

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He did not say that wealthy should pay NO taxes, he said they should pay the same taxes as everyone else. (I assume on a % basis)

I'm not even saying that. I was just refuting the position that the rich should automatically pay more because others cannot afford to live. As if, it is the rich people's fault for being rich. Fuck that. I do agree with the progressive tax system. I just hate when people stipulate that all rich people are greedy and should have their money taxed to hell.

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I have three degrees and will probably top out at just under a six figure salary by the time I'm settled.

While we are at it. Three degrees and you will top out there? lol

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