Federal Election 2008 Thread - TranceAddict Forums

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Posted by The Highroller on Oct-03-2008 14:59:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
because when international affairs are conducted in english, he's going to struggle communicating.

Again, you are exaggerating. Although he has a moderate accent, he can still communicate clearly. I find it hard to believe that you or any other English speaker would have trouble understanding the point he is trying to get across.

quote:
because 2 of the most powerful nations in the world -US and Britain - are obviously english.

There are certainly other leaders in the world who speak English as a second language communicate effectively to other leaders in English. This is not a valid reason for concluding that he isn't a good leader.

Posted by Knox on Oct-03-2008 15:06:

quote:
Originally posted by The Highroller

There are certainly other leaders in the world who speak English as a second language communicate effectively to other leaders in English. This is not a valid reason for concluding that he isn't a good leader.

+1

beat me to the post.

Posted by malek on Oct-03-2008 16:31:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
because when international affairs are conducted in english, he's going to struggle communicating.
because 2 of the most powerful nations in the world -US and Britain - are obviously english.

And Chr�tien was much better?

What does the poor poor poor 95% of the rest of the world with their thick accents when they conduct international politics and buisness?

Let's all talk english, hoist the US flag and get it over with

Posted by DigiNut on Oct-03-2008 16:41:

quote:
Originally posted by The Highroller
This is not a valid reason for concluding that he isn't a good leader.

It's not as insignificant as you make it out to be, either. He might have all the right ideas on how to run the country (not that he does), but the PM also has to represent our country internationally as well as unify the rank and file. Any perceived communication difficulties are a serious weakness here.

It may be just that - a perception - but the effects are real. It's often the case that the glib have their way over the truly competent but less clear-spoken.

I personally didn't realize just how hard it really is to function with non-native and more specifically non-fluent English speakers until I had to work with them. I think I can comfortably say that I'm a clear communicator, and when I'm dealing with people who aren't, no matter how intelligent and experienced I know they are, I still have to go over the same damn thing four times before we're on the same page, and even then I sometimes find out afterward that something was totally misinterpreted.

I'm not thinking of one specific person or experience, it's a trend. And I'm not saying there aren't exceptions (lord knows there are plenty of English speakers who are awful communicators - just read any online forum to see that), but the majority of my most frustrating experiences are with people who just haven't quite mastered the language and its subtleties and idioms.

And if that's how it is at work or on errands with the occasional dialogue, think of how it would be in political office with constant dialogue. More than half of what a PM does is just speak. If that part of the job isn't completely effortless for him, he's going to have a really hard time with the rest.

Just my opinion though. It's not as though Dion's speech is the only thing one can fault him on anyway.

Posted by MarkT on Oct-03-2008 17:06:

I don't think it's terribly relevant.

many foreign leaders don't have impeccable English accents as well, (with English perhaps not even being their first language).

It's not like Dion is alone, lol...he has a rather substantial staff

Posted by StereoPrincess on Oct-03-2008 17:12:

quote:
Originally posted by The Highroller
How does his ability to speak English affect his ability to represent the country?

There is too much exaggeration on how bad it is.

i agree. many world leaders speak French.

Posted by StereoPrincess on Oct-03-2008 17:15:

I also wanted to add that i didn't like the round table thing.

looked weird. i didn't think it was conducive to discussion. it was conducive to yelling at each other.

Posted by Skipper on Oct-03-2008 17:18:

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Any perceived communication difficulties are a serious weakness here.

It may be just that - a perception - but the effects are real. It's

Word.
Besides maybe China, the world's most powerful countries and in particularly, the country we need to work with the most, all have leaders whose first language is english.

Perhaps I am associating his general demeanor - which I find weak and somewhat pathetic - with the language barrier. Or perhaps the language barrier just makes him more annoying. Either way, I don't think he comes off as a top politician.

Last night he just seemed like he was trying to be overly aggro and it was laughable.

Posted by The Highroller on Oct-03-2008 17:30:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
Word.
Besides maybe China, the world's most powerful countries and in particularly, the country we need to work with the most, all have leaders whose first language is english.

Perhaps I am associating his general demeanor - which I find weak and somewhat pathetic - with the language barrier. Or perhaps the language barrier just makes him more annoying. Either way, I don't think he comes off as a top politician.

Last night he just seemed like he was trying to be overly aggro and it was laughable.

I personally don't feel he comes off as a top politician either, but I really don't think the (lack of a) language barrier would make any difference. All he has is an accent. From when I've heard him speak, he very rarely makes any grammatical mistakes.

Remember, there are many Canadians whose first language is French, who the prime minister is supposed to represent. Furthermore, Canada is a bilingual country.

I'm beginning to believe that for some (not saying anyone in particular that's posted in this thread), their problem is more that French is his mother tongue, not that his ability to speak English inhibits his ability to communicate and therefore lead the country...

Posted by malek on Oct-03-2008 18:02:

ouch.

Posted by exstasie on Oct-03-2008 18:18:

quote:
Originally posted by malek
ouch.

did duceppe crush your dreams too?

Posted by Skipper on Oct-03-2008 18:26:

quote:
Originally posted by The Highroller

I'm beginning to believe that for some (not saying anyone in particular that's posted in this thread), their problem is more that French is his mother tongue, not that his ability to speak English inhibits his ability to communicate and therefore lead the country...

I didn't have a problem with Chretien, but I thought his accent wasn't as bad and he had enough of a presence otherwise to offset it.

Dion is a boob. When he argues I find the words just stumble awkwardly out of his mouth. It's not just an accent. He's not convincing at all, and if you want to vote for someone who can't convince anyone of anything, that's your call. I don't think he has the presence of a politician and he won't get my vote because of it.

Posted by malek on Oct-03-2008 18:29:

quote:
Originally posted by exstasie
did duceppe crush your dreams too?

not really, I'm voting Duceppe. I was swaying between CPC and BQ, but CPC has no program, no tax cut for middle class and the same Liberals gimmicks of underevaluating surpluses, only to send them back to debt.... how innefecient when our infrastructure is crumbling.

Posted by Yohan on Oct-03-2008 18:36:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
presence

key word

leaders have a presence. dion has none

Posted by DigiNut on Oct-03-2008 18:48:

quote:
Originally posted by The Highroller
All he has is an accent.

No way. Chretien had an accent. Dion always sounds like he's groping in the dark for the right words. Scripted speeches obviously aren't as bad, but the flip side is that they seem to carry no passion or commitment whatsoever.

This has nothing to do with his mother tongue and everything to do with his ability to command an audience in English. I've known a number of Montrealers who were far more articulate in their speech than Dion is.

Posted by Skipper on Oct-03-2008 19:01:

I'd say Graham's not your average Canadian english listener, considering he lived in France for a year

Posted by MarkT on Oct-03-2008 19:50:

Dion + meek, garbled speech + solid platform (IMHO)

or

Harper + perfect English + weak initiatives thus far (IMHO) + unreleased/unknown formal platform (fact)

I'll take Dion and the Libs, thanks (or NDP or Green, if you prefer)

seriously...when the platforms are *so* different, I can't believe that speaking/language is even a deciding factor, lol. wow.

Posted by Dave Akermanis on Oct-03-2008 20:17:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
Dion + meek, garbled speech + solid platform (IMHO)

or

Harper + perfect English + weak initiatives thus far (IMHO) + unreleased/unknown formal platform (fact)

I'll take Dion and the Libs, thanks (or NDP or Green, if you prefer)

seriously...when the platforms are *so* different, I can't believe that speaking/language is even a deciding factor, lol. wow.

While i agree with your point on the platform bit, and would never vote Harper and the Conservatives myself, I'll have to agree that communication skills are essential if you want to be a leader.

Think about it this way: Just because one product is better than another, doesn't necessarily mean that more people will buy it. Marketing & communications is essential.

Posted by Skipper on Oct-03-2008 20:20:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
Dion + meek, garbled speech + solid platform (IMHO)

or

Harper + perfect English + weak initiatives thus far (IMHO) + unreleased/unknown formal platform (fact)

I'll take Dion and the Libs, thanks (or NDP or Green, if you prefer)

seriously...when the platforms are *so* different, I can't believe that speaking/language is even a deciding factor, lol. wow.

I don't like his carbon tax focus, and I don't buy some of his economic promises... so that's kind of another deciding factor

I personally think Harper has done a decent job during his time in the hot seat so far. There have been blunders sure, but there always are. I'm not itching for change like they are down south.

Posted by The Highroller on Oct-03-2008 21:00:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
I didn't have a problem with Chretien, but I thought his accent wasn't as bad and he had enough of a presence otherwise to offset it.

Dion is a boob. When he argues I find the words just stumble awkwardly out of his mouth. It's not just an accent. He's not convincing at all, and if you want to vote for someone who can't convince anyone of anything, that's your call. I don't think he has the presence of a politician and he won't get my vote because of it.

Who said I was voting for Dion?

I wasn't talking about how effective he is at communicating overall, I was just challenging the common exaggeration about his French accent. Although he may not be as articulate or confident in his speaking as some of the other leaders (even in French as 1dawoman pointed out), his French accent certainly does not affect his ability to communicate in English in any significant way.

Posted by MarkT on Oct-03-2008 21:03:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
While i agree with your point on the platform bit, and would never vote Harper and the Conservatives myself, I'll have to agree that communication skills are essential if you want to be a leader.

Think about it this way: Just because one product is better than another, doesn't necessarily mean that more people will buy it. Marketing & communications is essential.

agreed...it's important from a "marketing" standpoint, to get the general population to buy in.

I'm suggesting (hoping) that most people here are smart enough to not need to be "sold" in that manner and that we can evaluate the party platforms and competencies of each leader without needing the pretty packaging

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
I don't like his carbon tax focus, and I don't buy some of his economic promises... so that's kind of another deciding factor

I personally think Harper has done a decent job during his time in the hot seat so far. There have been blunders sure, but there always are. I'm not itching for change like they are down south.

fair enough. as long as someone is not taking a "well, since all things are equal, I don't like Dion's personality or demeanour so I won't vote for him".

I don't mean to imply that's not how *you* are looking at it. I simply hope that people in general aren't taking that approach. The party platform differences are significant enough to offset the leadership personalities, IMHO. (It just so happens that I also think Harper is a turd, lol)

I don't see the Libs winning with Dion as leader anyway...I just want to avoid a CPC majority. I also want the opposition to work together instead of allowing Harper to govern as if he DOES have a majority (as he's been able to do all along).

Posted by The Highroller on Oct-03-2008 21:05:

quote:
Originally posted by Skipper
I'd say Graham's not your average Canadian english listener, considering he lived in France for a year

That may be so, but that doesn't mean I'm not able to detect when someone's French accent is hindering their ability to communicate in English.

Posted by ChemEnhanced on Oct-03-2008 21:07:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
agreed...it's important from a "marketing" standpoint, to get the general population to buy in.

I'm suggesting (hoping) that most people here are smart enough to not need to be "sold" in that manner and that we can evaluate the party platforms and competencies of each leader without needing the pretty packaging

That's some serious hoping you are doing.

Posted by MarkT on Oct-03-2008 21:14:

quote:
Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
That's some serious hoping you are doing.

I'm an idealist sometimes

We can't really control whether or not a party keeps its promises and whether or not it actually chooses or is able to implement its platform.

All we can do is evaluate each, with our limited understanding of "how it all really works" and go from there.

I don't think it's too much to ask someone to view even a summary of the key points of each platform and decide from there...but I know that most probably don't even do that, lol.

Posted by oldschool420 on Oct-03-2008 21:15:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
I don't see the Libs winning with Dion as leader anyway...I just want to avoid a CPC majority. I also want the opposition to work together instead of allowing Harper to govern as if he DOES have a majority (as he's been able to do all along).

+1!

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