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-- The Official 2008-2009 NBA/Toronto Raptors Discussion Thread
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quote:

Originally posted by SuperJimbo What?!?!?! Crazytown. I never said such a thing. I merely responded to your ridiculous comment that "Flip isn't exactly a proven coach." He may not be Phil Jackson, but he is definitely proven. I have no idea who they should hire. I honestly don't think it will make a difference with this sorry lot.

But why is it so ridiculous? Dude think about it:

The guy coached on 2 teams in his career. Garnett's T Wolves and Post-Larry Brown Pistons. You're gonna rack up wins on both teams because of the talent; but yet he never won shit. The guy hasn't really accomplished all that much to be proven. And he isn't even close to being in the league of guys like Jerry Sloan to be considered "proven" but never winning anything.

I agree that you need a drink

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Colangelo must be reading TA, lol.

hahah apparently

this news makes me happy. Even better that I found out within 6 minutes of it being posted on nba.com.

We need a defense first coach. Someone competent. Someone who commands respect as a tactician in the locker room. I don't care who, but Flip or van Gundy are the best names out there, and the places I'd start looking first. I just don't see Triano or any of our staff filling the void for long, as S'Mitch has been shutting out [reportedly] their conversation for a long, long time. So much so that they might not even know which of their ideas would have worked and which would not.

hahaha yes and now we get to read about all the stories about how evil Mitchell was.

Wait...wasn't Mitchell supposedly part of the reason Vince wanted out of here so much? Maybe we should make a run for Vince now. If you think about it the Nets kind of owe us for giving them Vince for peanuts; so I guess Joey Graham for Vince wouldn't be bad

Coaches who have won NBA Championships since 1991....

1991: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Mike Dunleavy (L.A. Lakers), 4-1
1992: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Rick Adelman (Portland), 4-2
1993: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Paul Westphal (Phoenix), 4-2
1994: Rudy Tomjanovich (Houston), d. Pat Riley (New York), 4-3
1995: Rudy Tomjanovich (Houston), d. Brian Hill (Orlando), 4-0
1996: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. George Karl (Seattle), 4-2
1997: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Jerry Sloan (Utah), 4-2
1998: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Jerry Sloan (Utah), 4-2
1999: Gregg Popovich (San Ant.), d. Jeff Van Gundy (New York), 4-1
2000: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), d. Larry Bird (Indiana), 4-2
2001: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), d. Larry Brown (Philadelphia), 4-1
2002: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers) d. Byron Scott (New Jersey), 4-0
2003: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Byron Scott (New Jersey), 4-2
2004: Larry Brown (Detroit) d. Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), 4-1
2005: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Larry Brown (Detroit), 4-3
2006: Pat Riley (Miami) d. Avery Johnson (Dallas), 4-2
2007: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Mike Brown (Cleveland), 4-3
2008: Doc Rivers (Boston) d. Phil Jackson (Los Angeles), 4-2

Canned SaMitch!
I was sure it would happen after I saw him in the post game, I think he knew it too. I just hope they don't bring in Jeff Van Gundy or Avery Johnsson

quote:

Originally posted by Sorin.16v Jeff Van Gundy

despite the fact that he 'retired' from coaching.. I don't think it's inconceivable. In fact good defense is just what the Raps need and JVD has always been defensive minded..

edit: tho it appears that Triano will be at the helm for the remainder of the season

From an April 30th article....

"....There is an intriguing chessboard of coaching moves that could play out this spring. The wild card could be the ever-deteriorating relationship between Toronto Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo and his coach, Sam Mitchell. Multiple sources describe a season of constant confrontations, with Colangelo relentlessly challenging Mitchell�s strategies and preparation and harsh handling of 2007 No. 1 overall draft pick Andrea Bargnani.

After the Raptors went down 3-1 to Orlando on Saturday, sources said Colangelo flipped out over learning that Mitchell played a round of golf the following day. Mitchell was left to wonder who snitched, and on and on it goes. They are such different people, with different backgrounds and Mitchell�s belief system, rooted in old-school American basketball, never has meshed with the GM�s Euro philosophy.

Colangelo told reporters in Toronto on Tuesday that he didn�t plan on making a coaching change �at this time,� an endorsement. For now, the two years and guaranteed $9 million left on Mitchell�s deal make him tough to fire.

Colangelo tried to lowball Mitchell on a contract extension a year ago, but the threat of the NBA coach of the year leaving Toronto for Charlotte or Indiana eventually earned Mitchell his extension. Yet New York Knicks GM Donnie Walsh loves Mitchell, an old Pacer, and is closely monitoring circumstances in Toronto. Walsh has been leaning toward Mark Jackson throughout his search process, but suddenly a five-game loss to Orlando in the Eastern Conference playoffs and the crumbling relationship with Colangelo could make Mitchell a candidate for a Raiders-Buccaneers Gruden-esque trade with the Knicks.

�Sam is the perfect guy to kick (Eddy) Curry and (Zach) Randolph in the ass and get something out of them,� a rival Eastern Conference executive said. �Donnie loves tough guys, and that�s why he loves Sam.�

A year ago, Colangelo had his eye on Marc Iavaroni, the Suns assistant, but who would�ve thought that Mike D�Antoni could become available? Colangelo hired D�Antoni with the Suns and constructed that roster, and they see the game through the international basketball prism. If Toronto is available as a soft landing spot for D�Antoni, perhaps he beats the posse out of the desert this year instead of next....."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?sl...=yhoo&type=lgns

Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Sorin.16v Jeff Van Gundy or Avery Johnsson

haha fuck I hate both these coaches, they are both the quintessential evil opponent coaches haha

quote:

Originally posted by jon jon

thanks buddy.
hahaha

quote:

Originally posted by SuperJimbo Coaches who have won NBA Championships since 1991.... 1991: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Mike Dunleavy (L.A. Lakers), 4-1 1992: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Rick Adelman (Portland), 4-2 1993: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Paul Westphal (Phoenix), 4-2 1994: Rudy Tomjanovich (Houston), d. Pat Riley (New York), 4-3 1995: Rudy Tomjanovich (Houston), d. Brian Hill (Orlando), 4-0 1996: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. George Karl (Seattle), 4-2 1997: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Jerry Sloan (Utah), 4-2 1998: Phil Jackson (Chicago), d. Jerry Sloan (Utah), 4-2 1999: Gregg Popovich (San Ant.), d. Jeff Van Gundy (New York), 4-1 2000: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), d. Larry Bird (Indiana), 4-2 2001: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), d. Larry Brown (Philadelphia), 4-1 2002: Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers) d. Byron Scott (New Jersey), 4-0 2003: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Byron Scott (New Jersey), 4-2 2004: Larry Brown (Detroit) d. Phil Jackson (L.A. Lakers), 4-1 2005: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Larry Brown (Detroit), 4-3 2006: Pat Riley (Miami) d. Avery Johnson (Dallas), 4-2 2007: Gregg Popovich (San Antonio) d. Mike Brown (Cleveland), 4-3 2008: Doc Rivers (Boston) d. Phil Jackson (Los Angeles), 4-2

lol. so you are saying the Zen technique works like a charm.


OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

oh, another name that's been tossed around for the head coaching job so far that hasn't gotten a whole lot of attention is Ettore Messina, a very accomplished international coach. But before you dismiss him for his lack of NBA experience, read the schemes he was running to win the Euroleague in 2006 vs Tel Aviv. This is the kinda x's and o's we need, and although I'm not completely sold on him, it might be an interesting thing to read for the real b-ball nutcases out there...

FIBA Assist Magazine Sep/Oct 2006

Oh, and some of the players in the magazine might be familiar too.

I said it once and I'll say it again... the day that there was any hope of Larry Brown coming back was the day that yesterday should have happened and today we'd be talking about how this team has gone 13-1.

quote:

Originally posted by SPANIARD I said it once and I'll say it again... the day that there was any hope of Larry Brown coming back was the day that yesterday should have happened and today we'd be talking about how this team has gone 13-1.

psh!! 13-1?? 82-0 be-otch!!!!

Calderon!

Maybe it's just because I'm in exams and have to spend a Friday night at home, but man, Triano's got some tough work ahead of him...

Offensively, our sets looked better. In concept. We had movement from the weak side, cutters, and not all our plays [in fact, most weren't] were isolations for the bigs, or pick and roll situations. We got a lot of easy shots, but couldn't make them, and we even got out into transition. Bosh struggled, so did O'Neal, and even Jose at times, but I think that's just adjustment to a new system on one day's worth of shootaround.

Defensively, nothing's changed yet. We're still getting torched from the perimeter, but Sloan's offenses are always crazy with their execution, so that shouldn't have been a surprise.

Jeff Van Gundy sounded off indirectly at the Raptors during the 4th of the Boston-Portland game preceeding ours last night. He went off about the 'quick trigger finger' and 'scapegoating' of the coaches in the NBA. Made comments about why would you 'fire the coach at this point in the season, making it hard for another to come in and turn things around without prep time', or 'if you were dissatisfied with the coach why not wait until the offseason to find a suitable replacement that you are satisfied with'. Marc Jackson replied quickly with a "or are no longer under contract. I'm glad they don't do THAT to broadcasters. JvG made mention of long-tenured coaches like Sloan, and praised their organizations. It didn't sound like he was lining up for the job, and although no mention of Toronto was made, it was pretty pointed toward Brian.

In addition to that, BC was saying during the first quarter that the raptors were 'evaluating trade options' for the aquisition of another big. [WHY?] Rumour mill spinning right now is saying he's looking for a more mobile 5 [as his style was in PHX], and that player is Marcus Camby for Kapono and Humph. But bringing in Camby is likely to put O'Neal out of a job, and getting him outta town is rumoured to bring in Marion. High speculation, and I don't buy it for a second, but that's what's spinning out there.

pretend you're the GM.

Do you move Kapono, Humphries and Jermaine to net Marion and Camby?

tough to pass that up. Replace Kapono with Parker and I'd do it.

I think Van Gundy is biased. Most GM's want their own guy in there, so I think Colangleo didn't want Mitchell from the start...but when you go out and win even a weak division and get named coach of the year, it's tough to turf him The poor start this year, Bosh's impending decision-time, and the god-awful 39 point loss made it easy to justify getting rid of him now (easier than during the off season, anyway).

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT pretend you're the GM. Do you move Kapono, Humphries and Jermaine to net Marion and Camby? tough to pass that up. Replace Kapono with Parker and I'd do it.

I would too, I just don't see anyone crazy enough to agree with it.

That sounds like a complicated trade. Colangelo should go for someone like John Salmons.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Do you move Kapono, Humphries and Jermaine to net Marion and Camby?

hell yes

Goddamn, exam time has left me with nothing to do but surf the internet:

Source via Italian news La Stampa: [sorry no link, but it's in Italian anyway, so I've given you a google translation:

quote:

It can not be formalized, but the turn has already been decided, on the advice dell'italianissimo Maurizio Gherardini, executive vice president of the Canadian club Sam Mitchell has never been seen by very technical Gherardini, if that is found in the house and some 'has endured. Idem dicasi per il presidente Bryan Colangelo, che cognome a parte, tanto per inciso, ha sposato l�italiana Barbara Bottini. The same goes for the president Bryan Colangelo, that last part, so incidentally, has married the Italian Barbara Bottini. Colangelo poco tempo fa dichiar�: �Il problema non � sapere se Messina allener� nella Nba, ma quando�. Colangelo short time ago said: "The problem is not whether allener� Messina in the NBA, but when." Dalla prossima primavera, � la risposta gi� scritta, ma non ancora ufficializzabile eppure data da tutti per scontata. From next spring, the answer is already written, but not yet formalized yet given by all for granted.

Messina would be quite the interesting choice.

I wonder if he'd hand over the head coaching position right away though. Even with an experienced staff behind him, shouldn't this guy be an assistant or something...at least for a year? What does it say to Bosh when you bring in a coach with ZERO NBA experience who's likely going to implement a rather different style of play? Does Bosh stick around to see if it pans out in a year or two or does he bail?

(I'm not necessarily against it, given Messina's success in Europe...just throwing that out there).

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Messina would be quite the interesting choice. I wonder if he'd hand over the head coaching position right away though. Even with an experienced staff behind him, shouldn't this guy be an assistant or something...at least for a year? What does it say to Bosh when you bring in a coach with ZERO NBA experience who's likely going to implement a rather different style of play? Does Bosh stick around to see if it pans out in a year or two or does he bail? (I'm not necessarily against it, given Messina's success in Europe...just throwing that out there).

That's what a lot of people are saying. But if you look by reputation, would he accept a assistant's job? I'm not sure someone as decorated as him would. Doug Smith was saying that he'd need a couple of season's at assistant before going out and getting at the helm of a team of his own, but on that point, if you look at the cavs right now, him and coach brown have been doing an 'exchange' program in the off-seasons, where they've been coaching and learning from each other and the NBA-Euro styles of play respectively. I don't know if he's as-far off as one might think, but still, that doesn't make up for lack of NBA experience.

As for Bosh, yeah, it does send a rather mixed signal to him should it happen. But I guess it comes down to how secure BC feels in his own job, how much further down the line he's willing to gamble on this coach and consequently, the franchise's future? Is bringing in your own coach and style worth the trading of the franchise player, or another 2 years of retooling?

quote:

Originally posted by Sly_Guy Goddamn, exam time has left me with nothing to do but surf the internet: Source via Italian news La Stampa: [sorry no link, but it's in Italian anyway, so I've given you a google translation:

From ESPN Weekend Dime:

quote:

The current economic crisis is a global one, as the Russians could tell you. Perennial powerhouse CSKA Moscow recently shut down its women's team, which some European hoops experts we know well see as a clear sign that legendary men's coach Ettore Messina (at right) will be leaving CSKA at season's end as part of the club's financial cutbacks. If Messina indeed becomes a coaching free agent this summer, that'll only make it tougher for Raptors president and GM Bryan Colangelo to resist hiring the Italian as the first European-born head coach in the NBA. Messina is super close with Raptors assistant general manager Maurizio Gherardini and counts Colangelo as one of his biggest fans. Back in October, when CSKA was in Toronto to face the Raptors for an exhibition game, Colangelo was asked whether a foreign-born coach who speaks English as his second language could really land one of the NBA's 30 head-coaching jobs. Colangelo told our man Dave Feschuk of the Toronto Star, "It's not a matter of if it's going to happen, it's when it's going to happen." Colangelo, remember, didn't have a job opening when Mike D'Antoni and the Suns parted suddenly in May because of the four-year contract Colangelo felt he had to give Sam Mitchell after Mitchell won Coach of the Year honors in 2006-07. It'll be fascinating to see what happens now with Messina given that he's believed to be Colangelo's other favorite coach. The obstacles to such a hire, though, are obvious and numerous. Messina is enormously respected in the coaching biz worldwide for his X's-and-O's acumen, but there are undoubtedly hundreds of NBA players who've never heard of him. There would inevitably be loud questions about how NBA players would respond to Messina's firm hand -- far firmer than you generally see over here -- even with Toronto ranking as the NBA's most Europe-like setting, both in terms of the city and the roster. So it would be sensationally bold from Colangelo, even for a GM as aggressive as he is, to take that gamble, when at the same time he has made no secret of the fact that the organization's No. 1 goal over the next 18 months is keeping hold of 2010 free-agent supreme Chris Bosh. Obstacle No. 2: As Colangelo also conceded in October, any NBA coach has to "understand the sensibilities of the North American athlete," and that's something Messina could do only if he came to the NBA as an assistant first. Yet for the likes of overseas coaching legends such as Messina and Dynamo Moscow's David Blatt -- the American/Israeli from Princeton who ranks with Messina as Europe's best -- taking an assistant's job over here can't be especially appealing, from a financial or prestige standpoint. Another wrinkle here is that you shouldn't underestimate Jay Triano's ability to keep this job full-time, especially if Colangelo ultimately decides in the summer that it's too soon to make history with Messina. Triano is a certifiable Canadian legend -- as a player and a coach -- who has spent six-plus seasons as a Raptors assistant after memorably guiding the red and white to within one victory of the medal round in the 2000 Summer Games in Australia. The only recognizable names on that overachieving team were former Nets and 76ers center Todd McCulloch and a struggling young point guard out of Dallas named Steve Nash. "Players love Jay," Nash said this week, welcoming the opportunity to talk about something other than the Suns' gloomy start and clearly moved by Triano's promotion. "He's a fantastic coach. They're going to find out that he has a great feel and understanding of the game and is a lot of fun to play for."

In my personal opinion; either this guy comes in as an assistant for 1 or 2 years or not at all. I know he's a legendary coach over in Europe but that doesn't mean a damn thing in the NBA. There's too much to lose if he would be just dropped in like that.

From Messina's point of view it shouldn't matter whether he's too "decorated" for assistant coach for his first year in the NBA. He can't just come in without any real experience. No matter who he is.

edit What's so special about this guy anyways? I'll be honest with you that I've never heard of him before.

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