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-- Israel bombs Gaza...again.
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quote:

Originally posted by geroin anas, instead of posting over and over again about how no one is listening to what you have to say can you please state in point form what exactly you're trying to say here (without videos please)? from what i gathered so far 1. its a one sided war 2. israel is building a wall around palestine 3. people are left with no water and supplies

cool you've been paying attention Im trying to drive the point home that the Palestinians are being occupied, and that you have to see it from their point of view. It is extremely hard to do this as were all so comfortable in our realities here.

So if you would like me to dumb it down to point form, I like your points so I'll elaborate.

1. The war in the middle east, is primary one sided, with a massive power on one end vs a small civilian force on the other. (small isn't the keyword here, its civilian)

2. Israel is building a wall much much bigger than that which was build in Berlin. I'm sure you all remember how happy everyone was when that was taken down.

3. The Palestinian people don't have control of their own land, water and food supplies. They are in a controlled environment run by their oppressors.

4. No media outlets are able to go into this controlled area, as Israel wont let them. Even Israelis living in Israel don't even have the slightest clue at the horrors being administered by their army.

5. Foreign aid to the Palestinians is extremely hindered, as well as postal mail and commerce.

6. The Palestinians virtually have no human rights... Period.

oh and geroin, the only reason I put up videos is basically due to the fact that I must convey such a large sum of information to rebuttal simple claims like "its the Palestinian's fault there is a wall around them" or "no such thing as Palestinian people"

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia cool you've been paying attention Im trying to drive the point home that the Palestinians are being occupied, and that you have to see it from their point of view. It is extremely hard to do this as were all so comfortable in our realities here. So if you would like me to dumb it down to point form, I like your points so I'll elaborate. 1. The war in the middle east, is primary one sided, with a massive power on one end vs a small civilian force on the other. (small isn't the keyword here, its civilian) 2. Israel is building a wall much much bigger than that which was build in Berlin. I'm sure you all remember how happy everyone was when that was taken down. 3. The Palestinian people don't have control of their own land, water and food supplies. They are in a controlled environment run by their oppressors. 4. No media outlets are able to go into this controlled area, as Israel wont let them. Even Israelis living in Israel don't even have the slightest clue at the horrors being administered by their army. 5. Foreign aid to the Palestinians is extremely hindered, as well as postal mail and commerce. 6. The Palestinians virtually have no human rights... Period. oh and geroin, the only reason I put up videos is basically due to the fact that I must convey such a large sum of information to rebuttal simple claims like "no such thing as Palestinian people"

so to dumb it down even further....its like when whitey took the land from the redskins.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia You have proven to me that you don't care about the issue, I don't get what your doing here.

Quite the contrary, I have every right to be here and express my views. Just by making a stupid statement like that you put yourself in the say realm as the fanatics that teach their young to hate because of religion.

The world belongs to no one. How righteous we are as humans to think that we are superior to every life form on the planet.

No respect for the basic life, no respect for the environment, and no respect for each other.

Its no wonder the world is in state of chaos. Even primates are not as violent as humans.

Its time to get over yourself and take a look around the world and see this is not an isolated issue. Be a part of the solution not the problem.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced so to dumb it down even further....its like when whitey took the land from the redskins.

I think im begining to like you.... your almost necessary

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Originally posted by Anas Attia I think im begining to like you.... your almost necessary

I'm like those little fish that follow the sharks around....I might be a pain in the ass but I do serve a purpose.

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Originally posted by HouseGuru Quite the contrary, I have every right to be here and express my views. Just by making a stupid statement like that you put yourself in the say realm as the fanatics that teach their young to hate because of religion. The world belongs to no one. How righteous we are as humans to think that we are superior to every life form on the planet. No respect for the basic life, no respect for the environment, and no respect for each other. Its no wonder the world is in state of chaos. Even primates are not as violent as humans. Its time to get over yourself and take a look around the world and see this is not an isolated issue. Be a part of the solution not the problem.

Man you said you didn't care about the issue.. and this is a debate about the issue. You don't see the dilemma here? Anyways whatever you want man, what do you want me to say that will make you happy?

Of course this is not an isolated issue, but this is an issue that is overlooked and im simply trying to help.

And again, why is my ego apart of anything here, i'm just frustrated by people like you who are making a mockery of the debate.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut And as for this "petition", it boggles the mind that after more than 10 years of so-called "cease fires", there are still people who don't understand the concept of a hudna.

Always remember there is two sides to each story. By the way all these times you heard of the cease fire breaking.. where did you hear them from?

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Man you said you didn't care about the issue.. and this is a debate about the issue. You don't see the dilemma here? Anyways whatever you want man, what do you want me to say that will make you happy? Of cource this is not an isolated issue, but this is an issue that is overlooked and im simply trying to help.

You seem to pick and choose what you want to hear.

quote:

Originally posted by HouseGuru "And for the record I have no interest in supporting either side. I have no emotional attachment to this issue nor do I care which side wins. The only winner in this should be peace"

I said I didn't care which side wins not that i didn't care about the issue. You seem to have selective hearing. The fact is I hope that it is compromise not a win that will settle this.

I don't want any further bloodshed. I rather everybody live by our code of the underground Peace Love Unity and Respect.

Believe me your help would be better used if you educated your people that violence isn't the answer. This goes for the Jewish as well. No one is free from fault here but you need to both accept responsiblity and work toward common ground. Stop trying to figure out who is right or wrong it hasn't worked in decades and it certainly wont work now.

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Originally posted by DigiNut [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#99CCEE]"Mountains" of evidence, LOL. This post tells all.

I understand your immediate shock at this, but before I put an answer your comment, how familiar are you with the 911 attacks? Have you looked up any of the material that suggests the attacks were not what they seem? I don't want to sway away from the subject, but I want to know so I can address your concern appropriately.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Always remember there is two sides to each story.

..but your side is the right side and only side, amirite?

^All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others ...

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie You just called everyone ignorant again.

Calling people ill-informed on a particular subject does not equate to labeling someone as ignorant, i.e. lacking education or knowledge in general.

Work for Murdoch?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut

Good posts.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie ..but your side is the right side and only side, amirite?

You are right...which is really sad.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie ..but your side is the right side and only, amirite?

Sorry I didn't know I had a side, I never said that one nation should do this or one nation should do that. I have merely presented facts to showcase that the issue is far more complicated than presented, and we need to learn more before passing judgment. Let alone presenting solutions.

But I did have a question for you... where do you usually hear the news about the cease fire breaking? Because the news will be different depending where you hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia 1. The war in the middle east, is primary one sided, with a massive power on one end vs a small civilian force on the other. (small isn't the keyword here, its civilian)

if you're an actively engaging in a conflict with weapons, you are at minimal considered a paramilitary force (I'm sure that's the criteria from Geneva convention) and you are no longer considered a civillian

or, if you're taking about Hamas, the term terrorists apply better. if I have to explain why Hamas would be considered a terrorist organization... oh well

quote:

2. Israel is building a wall much much bigger than that which was build in Berlin. I'm sure you all remember how happy everyone was when that was taken down.

two different context. West Germany and East Germany were full of Germans separated due to political reasons by the Berlin Wall.
the jews and palestinians are not homogenous ethnic group, so I think a little different story
(not saying I agree with Israel building a wall, though I can understand why such security measure might be used)

quote:

6. The Palestinians virtually have no human rights... Period.

definition of right
-a justified claim on someone, or on some institution, for something which is owed

it is irrelevant to speak of rights, when nobody will protect such rights, or punish people who violate rights

meaning, no one is punishing Israel for violating human rights. no one is really punishing Hamas for their human rights violation too.

rights should exist and be enjoyed by everyone. but if there is no guaranteed mechanism of some sort to guarantee and protect rights, it's almost a non issue

quote:

oh and geroin, the only reason I put up videos is basically due to the fact that I must convey such a large sum of information to rebuttal simple claims like "its the Palestinian's fault there is a wall around them" or "no such thing as Palestinian people"

you were scoffing at the fact that someone claimed Palestine isn't a country. completely different from Palestine as a country (which never existed) and region, and Palestinian people

Ok guys, I gotta leave as i'm spinning out of the country for NY.

Just open your hearts, that's all.

take care.

Yohan, for clarification, do you agree with points 3,4,5 or are those none-issues?

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Sorry I didn't know I had a side, I never said that one nation should do this or one nation should do that. I have merely presented facts to showcase that the issue is far more complicated than presented, and we need to learn more before passing judgment. Let alone presenting solutions. But I did have a question for you... where do you usually hear the news about the cease fire breaking? Because the news will be different depending where you hear it.

As you say, I'm ill-informed, so no matter what I say it's wrong to you.

At this point Anas, it's reduntant discussing this with you. You deny Israel's existence like Hamas so we know what side you are on, so it is pointless discussing with you as you've clearly explained in this thread, and proved it in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by InfiniteEclipse Yohan, for clarification, do you agree with points 3,4,5 or are those none-issues?

i agree (to a degree) to those points, which is consistent with my position that both side are in the wrong

though I had to bite my tongue at point 4. what about the horrors the Hamas is dishing out?

still trying to figure out whether Anas believes that Palestinians are justified in taking whatever action they can (incl acts of terrorism) against Israeli 'oppressors'. still mildly amused at the attempt to portray Palestinians (and Hamas) as the 'good' guy

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie As you say, I'm ill-informed, so no matter what I say it's wrong to you. At this point Anas, it's reduntant discussing this with you. You deny Israel's existence like Hamas so we know what side you are on, so it is pointless discussing with you as you've clearly explained in this thread, and proved it in the past.

.

nvm not even gonna respond. what an insult.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan i agree (to a degree) to those points, which is consistent with my position that both side are in the wrong though I had to bite my tongue at point 4. what about the horrors the Hamas is dishing out? still trying to figure out whether Anas believes that Palestinians are justified in taking whatever action they can (incl acts of terrorism) against Israeli 'oppressors'. still mildly amused at the attempt to portray Palestinians (and Hamas) as the 'good' guy

Why are you trying to figure that out? when did I say anything close to that? I said look at it in their point of view so you know what their mad at, so you know how to fix the problem.

Also, why are you trying to put Palestinians and hammas under the same group of people. they are not! hammas is their government... and if you know anything about world politics you will know government does not equal people.

anyways i really have to go...

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia Why are you trying to figure that out? when did I say anything close to that? I said look at it in their point of view so you know what their mad at, so you know how to fix the problem.

because I dont recall a post from you condemning Hamas, but rather sidestepping the issue.

quote:

Also, why are you trying to put Palestinians and hammas under the same group of people. they are not! hammas is their government... and if you know anything about world politics you will know government does not equal people.

I know both entities are separate.

but the actions Hamas are taking, they'd argue that since they are elected by the Palestinian people, are therefore representing...

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan I know both entities are separate. but the actions Hamas are taking, they'd argue that since they are elected by the Palestinian people, are therefore representing...

Under your logic... bush..elected..so all Americans want what bush wants.

yohan, not sure what your problem is, but it seems you just like to argue. no basis or evidence to support your claims.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan still mildly amused at the attempt to portray Palestinians (and Hamas) as the 'good' guy

Most Palestinians are the good guys. Hamas on the other hand...

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia . nvm not even gonna respond. what an insult.

of course not, admitting it will lose all what little credibility you have left.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan i agree (to a degree) to those points, which is consistent with my position that both side are in the wrong though I had to bite my tongue at point 4. what about the horrors the Hamas is dishing out? still trying to figure out whether Anas believes that Palestinians are justified in taking whatever action they can (incl acts of terrorism) against Israeli 'oppressors'. still mildly amused at the attempt to portray Palestinians (and Hamas) as the 'good' guy

Fair enough. I see what you are saying.

The issue of terrorism however, should be examined with care, on a case by case basis. Terrorism, as accusations from either side, tends to be loosely defined (not by you per say but generally). My trouble is, if an occupied lacks any formal military training or weaponry amidst the absence of technological advancement, should we consider their aggression as defensive or as terrorism. To clarify, consider missiles blindly fired into Israel. The general western consensus holds this to be acts of terrorism. On the other hand, these aggressors simply do not possess the means to advance forward and attack select targets. When is it terrorism and when is it patriotism.

This thought really encompasses far more than the current Israel/Palestine conflict, and Chomsky would have a field day.

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie of course not, admitting it will lose all what little credibility you have left.

keep pressing buttons. don't bother actually contributing to the debate in any way. Cheers for accusing me of such a horrible thing. I appreciate it, and i'm sure everyone else that thinks like you appreciates it too.

Im not going to waste my time here any further, placing my name on the line just to be harassed by you. thanks.

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