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acid became acid with the use of 303, nothing else. If there was no 303 there would be LSD yes but there would be no acid music/acid house imo.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I don't think anyone is in disagreement that you can say the word 'acid' and be referring to a sound that you can make with the TB-303. The quibble is whether or not that 'acid house' can be defined without the TB-303.

Without Acid, there'd be no Acid House. Not just in terms of names, but quite literally, the etymology of the latter genre. Acid House is an almost evolutionary reaction to the sparse arrangement and over-stated prominence of the TB303 in Acid. Sound design in Acid House, as well as Hard House, resided predominantly in sonic palates inspired (if not outright created) by the TB303.

YOU WILL F&CKING ACCEPT MY NARRATIVE AS FACT!!

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Yes, and when I hear people claim that 1.) acid = 303 sound therefore 2.) acid house must have this 303 sound, to me it sounds as silly as someone claiming 1.) epic = supersaw sound therefore 2.) epic trance must have this supersaw sound, all because people all started making music with this sound and someone said it sounded epic and everyone picked the most obvious musical element to copy over and over again. So I say, yes, let's just keep calling that sound acid, because it's so emblematic of the genre, but there are in fact plenty of acid house tracks without the TB-303, and also some without the squelchy 'acid' sound at all. They are certainly more rare - but there is more to this genre than this one sound, which is like the front man taking credit for all of the players.

yeah, but its not "silly" but purely practical to state that acid house has that 303 sound and epic trance has that super-saw sound. Because the vast majority of acid house and epic trance tracks (around 98% pulling a random percentage lol) would feature these respective sounds. Yes there will always be a very slight percentage not conforming to the tb-303/super-saw consensus (mostly during a genre's starting point when a genre's boundaries are very ill-defined, as well at genre-inter-section points with other genres) but it is still a very small percentage and in most of the times not representative of the genre.



The tracks you have posted are good electro/EBM (maybe "proto-house") whatever stuff but definitely not straight "house" or "acid-house" for that matter. If that is the case then i could call all detroit techno "early trance" lol. Or classic trance "early epic trance". Or some deep blues early "rock n roll". The reason they are called different is because they sound different! (or to put it more scientifically, they have clear-cut perceptual differences corresponding to different intruments or production techniques). Trance had very pronounced synth-arpeggios (detroit techno didn't have them), epic trance had the super-saw sound (classic trance didn't have it), rock n roll had fast-paced electric quitars (deep blues didn't have them) and acid-house had the tb-303 "bird-sound" (previous house didn't have it). Hell, why not call acid house epic trance!? Some tracks are "epic" and "hypnotic". Or deep blues "heavy metal"? They are kinda "heavy" after all.

Its simple as that. You can stretch it semantically as far as you want but this is the plain truth

I love it when a thread comes together.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Surmising, theorizing, wondering, fantasizing - yes, absolutely.

No, you're doing none of that.

You're just being wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Does anyone here have a clue?

Yes. I do.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec The point is, as I have made over and over again, that acid house was a movement within house/dance music which does was not dependent upon the TB-303 for its existence, though the TB-303 became one of its chief identifying characteristics.

I am to understand that you are advocating this argument without any formal education, training, practice, instruction, knowledge or expertise of vintage analog synths, their properties, or their methods which may or may not have helped flourish a very specific underground culture of British youths vacationing in Ibiza in the summer of 1987 and without any solid proof, evidence or concrete analysis of the nature of these synths and their direct influence on that culture at large.

Correct?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec The quibble is whether or not that 'acid house' can be defined without the TB-303.

Defining acid house without the 303 is like defining soccer without the ball.

In other words, I suppose you can, but why would you want to do that?

Your argument is nonsensical because it's just so fucking stupid.

@ nefardec: Bullshit, it's simple: Any squelchy, 303 like sound used over the top in an electronic track makes it acid.
That's why rave tracks ubiquitously feature such sounds, cause they make rave the acid techno/house/trance/electro that it is.
You wanna space'm?
Add an acid lead or maybe more of 'em.

What you're talking about is the whole industrial, psy, goth, kraut inspired styles, which included acid tracks as well, but then we're talking about the difference between the whole house/techno/electro/party movement and the different styles found in it.
What do you think led to the whole cyber-goth movement and the electronic styles associated with it?
It's the movement you are describing over and over again.
Of course, it also yielded the early house, techno, electro, acid, rave, psy, etc. styles and sub-scenes, but it wasn't called acid by default at that time, it came under a multiple of nomers, including house, techno, new wave, industrial, rave, electro, acid, etc. and as far as i know people didn't care about nomers and labels as much as they do now.

In the late 80's and early 90's, acid, whatever it meant before, became to mean tracks with at least one squelchy, 303 like lead that dominated the track.
Because the early and mid 80's were a mess with regards to labeling the emerging styles, like it always is with emerging styles, it's better to retrospectively label tracks, because looking back things are clearer.
While there already was some consensus with regards to house and techno, acid, which was just in it's very babyhood, was still being developed as an off-shoot.
But anyway, let's not bore each other with our different views more than necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Your argument is nonsensical because it's just so fucking stupid.

Well, actually it looks even better when reversed

Your argument is so fucking stupid because it's just nonsensical.

Meantime doesn't this type of dog-chasing-tail discussion really belong over at Infinite State Machine?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Defining acid house without the 303 is like defining soccer without the ball.

Thanks for that analogy -

Kids who can't afford soccer balls might play the game with tin cans.. it's still the same game.

In any case, I'm NOT defining acid without the 303, I'm just expanding the definition beyond it, focusing more on the technique and the desired 'effect' rather than the instrument itself. In other words, sort of like describing the whole game of soccer, rather than just the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Barachem What you're talking about is the whole industrial, psy, goth, kraut inspired styles, which included acid tracks as well

Well lots of movements, and subsequently, genres, came about with the new technology. But acid house was specifically a 'cybernetic' continuation of disco, whereas the other styles aren't.

As others have pointed out, just because a track has 303 or that sound in it (eg the 10 Ragas track or the Pink Floyd), doesn't mean it's 'acid'.

To me acid is like old school........ its just acid, not house not trance not fucking whatever the fuck the God dammned tv tells you ITS WHAT I SAY DAMMIT!

oldschool=ACID

ACID=oldschool. not jimi hendrix, no waveform ID, just classical fuckin tunage. I use too think acid trance was like trance and Acid Tracid tracks, but now I know. And I am telling you all so, you can say oh.

Oh

i know,
I said oh too

quote:

Originally posted by sg_57 Well, actually it looks even better when reversed Your argument is so fucking stupid because it's just nonsensical. Meantime doesn't this type of dog-chasing-tail discussion really belong over at Infinite State Machine?

Try:

Your argument is just so stupid because it's fucking nonsensical.

Or: http://www.translationparty.com/#9330364

let's go!

Your argument is nonsensical because it's just so fucking stupid.

into Japanese

それだけでばかクソだから君の主張は無意味である。

back into English

Your argument simply because it is a stupid fucking pointless.

back into Japanese

あなたの議論は、単にそれは愚かなクソ無意味だからです。

back into English

Your argument is meaningless because it is just fucking stupid.

back into Japanese

それだけで愚かなクソされているため、引数は無意味です。

back into English

Because it just is fucking stupid, the argument is meaningless.

back into Japanese

それだけで愚かなクソされているため、引数は無意味です。

back into English

Because it just is fucking stupid, the argument is meaningless.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker Try: Because it just is fucking stupid, the argument is meaningless.

Thanks for the LULZ!!

Now suddenly it all started making sense.

Lemme try my own homebrew Yodaspeak� generator:

Because stupid so fucking your argument is, nonsensical to be it appears.

Now if I could record a speech synthesis software system saying this and passing it through a TB-303's analog filter, we'd be getting somewhere....

quote:

Originally posted by sg_57 Thanks for the LULZ!! Now suddenly it all started making sense. Lemme try my own homebrew Yodaspeak� generator: Because stupid so fucking your argument is, nonsensical to be it appears. Now if I could record a speech synthesis software system saying this and passing it through a TB-303's analog filter, we'd be getting somewhere....

That's actually a pretty cool idea, to use the translation party as verses that change over time and degrade into nonsense.

If someone can upload the text to speech in an audio file, I'll vocode it.

quote:

Originally posted by Barachem @ nefardec: Bullshit, it's simple: Any squelchy, 303 like sound used over the top in an electronic track makes it acid. That's why rave tracks ubiquitously feature such sounds, cause they make rave the acid techno/house/trance/electro that it is. You wanna space'm? Add an acid lead or maybe more of 'em. What you're talking about is the whole industrial, psy, goth, kraut inspired styles, which included acid tracks as well, but then we're talking about the difference between the whole house/techno/electro/party movement and the different styles found in it. What do you think led to the whole cyber-goth movement and the electronic styles associated with it? It's the movement you are describing over and over again. Of course, it also yielded the early house, techno, electro, acid, rave, psy, etc. styles and sub-scenes, but it wasn't called acid by default at that time, it came under a multiple of nomers, including house, techno, new wave, industrial, rave, electro, acid, etc. and as far as i know people didn't care about nomers and labels as much as they do now. In the late 80's and early 90's, acid, whatever it meant before, became to mean tracks with at least one squelchy, 303 like lead that dominated the track. Because the early and mid 80's were a mess with regards to labeling the emerging styles, like it always is with emerging styles, it's better to retrospectively label tracks, because looking back things are clearer. While there already was some consensus with regards to house and techno, acid, which was just in it's very babyhood, was still being developed as an off-shoot. But anyway, let's not bore each other with our different views more than necessary.

Scooter used the 303 in many tracks, someone forgot to call it german acid techno

But I still think that that many subgenres sucks and like you say is true, we really didn't bother about subgenres in the late 80's.

In this one I don't think the Acid sound dominates the track so then this must be a merge of Ska and Acid?



Also, if you would add that Acid 303 like sound to this one it's suddenly Acid House, so subgenre switching is pretty easy:



Acid Trance?

Tracid

bassline is not distorted here... this is acid, no?

one step away from:

speaking of trax:



an all time fav...so many people sampled this too.

Check out this Boo Williams track. Acid?



It actually samples one of my favorite albums from the 70s 'Seven Deadly Sins' by Rinder & Lewis

IMO:
Acid should not be used as a (sub)genre, for the same reason the supersaw shouldn't be used to point at a subgenre of trance. Subgenres suck.
Acid can be used to describe a certain sound used in tracks, but those tracks can belong to different genres as is pretty obvious listing to the various tracks posted till now.

quote:

Originally posted by justin To me acid is like old school........ its just acid, not house not trance not fucking whatever the fuck the God dammned tv tells you ITS WHAT I SAY DAMMIT! oldschool=ACID ACID=oldschool. not jimi hendrix, no waveform ID, just classical fuckin tunage. I use too think acid trance was like trance and Acid Tracid tracks, but now I know. And I am telling you all so, you can say oh.

Trance is House music. Acid Trance doesn't exist.

Exactly the same lead sound. Yuck.

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