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You have some very strong points here. If you were to back them up and further develop them with some sources and strong evidence you would have quite the arguement.
I'm gonna try and give some of my thoughts though on a couple of the points.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Jesus Christ is most likely a fictional character. Consider: 1. There is NO physical evidence of the life of Jesus Christ. 2. The Roman Empire kept records of executions, but these records do not mention Jesus Christ.

I don't doubt that they kept rather meticulous records in Rome, but Jerusalem was vary far away from Rome (in the standerds of those days) and I doubt records were very well kept here. The hebrews were always a problem so I bet the Roman government there was always in disarray trying to keep things in order.

quote:

3. The 41 most prominent Roman Historians during Christ's supposed lifetime and within several decades thereafter were Apollonius, Appian, Arrian, Aulus Gellius, Columella, Damis, Dio Chrysostum, Dion Pruseus, Epictetus, Favorinus, Florus Lucius, Hermogenes, Josephus, Justus of Tiberius, Juvenal, Lucanus, Lucian, Lysias, Martial, Peterculus, Pausanius, Persius, Petronius, Phaedrus, Philo-Judeas, Phelgon, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the Younger, Plutarch, Pompon Mela, Ptolemy, Quintillian, Quintius Curtis, Seneca, Silius Italicus, Statius, Suetonius, Tacitus, Theon of Smyran, Valerius Flaccis, and Valerius Maximus. In the combined works of these historians, Jesus Christ is mentioned a grand total of 4 times. Two of these passages have been proven forgeries, and the other two are highly suspect as well. 4. The only "historical" records of the life of Jesus Christ are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the New Testament. However, these can't really be considered historical records at all. Original copies of the gospels no longer exist, so we are forced to assume they were copied perfectly. According to Biblical historians, none of the gospels were written until 70 AD - a bit late to have been written by the followers of Christ. Whoever wrote Luke says that he is compiling the stories from other material and was not a witness to the events himself (Luke 1:1-4). The gospels are written in Greek, not Aramaic - the language that Christ and his followers used. Finally, the gospels are written in the third person - not the point of view one would expect from someone supposedly recording their historical experiences with Christ. 5. Matthew and Luke present contradictory accounts of the birth of Christ. Matthew says he was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. Problem is, 10 years seperated the rule of those two men. 6. In the late eighteenth century, a Jesuit scholar by the name of Antonmaria Lupi wrote a work which showed that the nativity of Christ had been assigned to every month of the year at one time or another. 7. Luke stated that Joseph left his home in Nazareth and crossed two provinces to go Bethlehem for the enrollment, and that he had to be accompanied by his wife, Mary, who was pregnant. It's highly doubtful she could have even made the trip, but what's worse is that Roman custom dictated that, when an enrollment was made, the head of each household alone was to report. Not to bring their pregnant wives with them.

Only possibly rebuttal to this I can think of is that Mary was pregnant before she married Joseph, thus people would have considered Mary a whore and would have scorned her if she remained. Joseph only accepted her because he believed that he had an angel come to him and tell him his wife was carrying the child of God. Thats the story according to the New Testament I'm pretty sure.

quote:

8. The story of Christ's crucifixion doesn't even make sense. The Roman Civilization was marked by the greatest legal system the world had ever seen. Their courts were models of order and fairness. And yet, flying in the face of everything we know about the Roman legal system, we're supposed to believe that Pilate commanded Christ's execution even after finding him innocent, simply to please a mob which demanded his crucifixion? It reeks of laziness, as if the author(s) of these stories couldn't even be bothered to research the topics about which they wrote! Besides, why would the mob demand his death? If he had truly performed the miracles described in the New Testatment, he would be a hero, not a martyr. That a civilized people bore such murderous hatred towards a kind and loving man who went around doing good, preaching forgiveness, and even miraculously curing leprosy and raising the dead is not even close to a believable story.

The Roman system was incredibly corrupt. And especially way out in Jerusalem, they had many other things to worry about then keeping strict adherence to the code. The Jews wanted Jesus dead because he was a heratic. He broke the laws of the Jews. He did work on the sabbath, he befriended sinners, he called all the jewish elite blasphemeres in the temple. The jews thought their messiah was going to be a warlord who kicked out the romans and brought the hebrew society to power. Not some pacifist who turns the other cheek. There is much in the New Testament about how and why the Jews hated Jesus and on the reasons behind his crucifixion.

quote:

9. The idea of a human messiah was already found in several other geographically nearby religions just prior to the birth of Christ. Har-Khuti in the Sut-Typhonian, Kunsu in that of the Amen-Ra, Iu in the cult of Atum-Ra, and most glaringly, Horus in the Osirian Mythos. Each of these religious figures allegedly had Gods for fathers, virgins for mothers, had their births announced by the stars, were born on the solstice around December 25, had tyrants who endeavored to kill them in their infancy, met violent deaths, and supposedly rose from the dead. 10. In fact, the religious account of Horus is so closely analagous to that of Jesus Christ, one can scarcely believe they are different. The Osirian Mythos described "Horus and the Father as one", "Horus as the father seen in the son", "Horus was baptized with water by Anup", and "Horus as the good shepherd." Additionally, Horus was identified with the cross, and was said to have had 12 followers. Anyone familiar with the precepts of Anthropology should immediately recognize this as an example of cultural migration - not the birth of some farcical "son of god." Conclusion: While it is impossible to be 100% certain that Jesus Christ did not exist, it would be very imprudent to believe he did. Cheers, Arbiter

anyway like i said you present some strong points which you could turn into a very solid arguement if you had evidence to back it all up. I really didn't support any of what I said with evidence so we are both sorta running around in circles .

oh and one more thing tho.

if Jesus never did exist, who started Christianity?
It certainly wasn't the Romans who adopted it about 200 years after its conception.
Was it the apostles and they just made up this Jesus guy to get things going?
Christianity got here somehow, someone had to start it.
Whether Jesus was actually the son of god or some crazy bloke who thought he was or some kind man who believed he had a mission to spread the word of peace and forgiveness or some crazy cult type leader, Jesus is the most logical person to have started the religon.
If Jesus didn't I'd like to hear some very strong arguements for who did.

quote:

Originally posted by montie If Jesus didn't I'd like to hear some very strong arguements for who did.

The vast right wing conspiracy of course.

quote:

Originally posted by montie Mary was pregnant before she married Joseph, thus people would have considered Mary a whore...

pics or STFU

sorry but its gettin way to serious in here.

I believe that Jesus was just a good man, like Gandhi for example. He "preached" about peace and stuff like that. He said some wise things, and that's really nice. But I really don't believe in Jesus as a "super-natural" being and that he made all those miracles. Those things for me are tales, legends, whatever.

I see the bible as greek mithology but without all those Gods. I mean, if you read a history from greek mithology, you will find many interesting stories from which you can learn stuff about greed, etc etc, like the bible does. Like tales. So I think that those miracles people say Jesus made are only told to ilustrate some nice he did. Like multipling fish and bread, could be a way to teach people to share their stuff with other in needs and so on.

I dont know if I was clear enough to be understood, but its kindda hard for me to explain this...

quote:

Originally posted by occrider The vast right wing conspiracy of course.

You notice how I've been conspicuously absent from this conversation which, for the most part, has taken quite a twist and turn from my last posting. Still interesting reading, though.

But Cheney, your sarcasm doesn't wash with me. Next thing I know you'll start blaming the media.

I'm sick of it! You're not fooling anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by montie The Jews wanted Jesus dead because he was a heratic. He broke the laws of the Jews. He did work on the sabbath, he befriended sinners, he called all the jewish elite blasphemeres in the temple. The jews thought their messiah was going to be a warlord who kicked out the romans and brought the hebrew society to power. Not some pacifist who turns the other cheek. There is much in the New Testament about how and why the Jews hated Jesus and on the reasons behind his crucifixion.

I have to address this. I highly doubt that Jewish society as a whole would really give two shits if someone worked on the Sabbath. Regularly going off on rants and breaking things in the temple during service, on the other hand, probably would have upset a few people. Doesn't sound like much of a pacifist to me.

If Jesus truly existed, I don't see much evidence to support that he was a good, kind man who didn't want any trouble. The New Testament says he was innocent, but I wouldn't trust a Christian book to give an accurate account of that, or to explain Jewish society in general, considering that these same people believed in ridiculous concepts like Blood Libel.

Show me a secular book with an account of this, and I'll listen.

My guess is that Jesus was a leader of a local cult who happened to grow into a large movement due to historicall occurances.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 My guess is that Jesus was a leader of a local cult who happened to grow into a large movement due to historicall occurances.

but the real question is WHY. WHY did his local cult grow to become so big, and not some other random cult?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Jesus Christ is most likely a fictional character.

Did anyone else find this, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being really smart and 10 being really dumb, about a 14?

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Did anyone else find this, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being really smart and 10 being really dumb, about a 14?

Is a cartoon character considered fiction?
Have I been living in cartoon land all this time?

I think that kid in the Twilight Zone wished me to Cartoon Land a long time ago, and I'm just now catching on. He must have done it while I was asleep.

So you're telling me that Jesus isin't the Tazmanian Devil this whole time?

Now I'm really screwed up.

Niquil.

How can you guys dispute his existence???

quote:

Originally posted by occrider How can you guys dispute his existence???

That was a good one

MrS

quote:

Originally posted by occrider How can you guys dispute his existence???

you said it, man

I knew his favorite color was purple. But I thought Jesus was black?

And one other thing, are those beer bongs those angels are holding?

so ur telling..me that the bible was just a ny times best seller bak in the old days?

nonething ever written in there happened..jesus christ and his miracles all a big tale full of metaphors....

is dat wut yall saying?

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec so ur telling..me that the bible was just a ny times best seller bak in the old days? nonething ever written in there happened..jesus christ and his miracles all a big tale full of metaphors.... is dat wut yall saying?

Man, you really missed the boat, didn't you?

I have said nothing of the sort.

You know why? Because there were no NY Times back then. Hell, New York wasn't even around yet. It was the Jerusalem Times. Here's but one rave review from the King David Herald:

"Cleverly written. A must read!!!"

so the bible was the harry potter book of the jeruselem times?


this thread is making my stomach hurt

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec so the bible was the harry potter book of the jeruselem times? this thread is making my stomach hurt

Kind of ... here were the amazon reviews for it:

Spotlight Reviews

4 of 9 people found the following review helpful:

The Real Story about the Son of God!, September 25, 0098
Reviewer: Juha Ylinen (see more about me) from Gaul
This book is without no doubt the most important book in hole world! If you can find the red line, you'll know what I am talking about! Jesus is the main character in the Holy Bible.
You find Him in The Old Testament,when prophets talks about forcoming Saviour. The New Testament is the real evidence about Jesus's life. He really died for our sins on the cross and He can only save us eternal destruction to eternal joy. Believe in Him,if you want to change yoyr life. The Bible is also full of great stories about disciples, angels, normal people, faith heroes and end of days. Read this! The Holy Bible is the best ever written book!


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5 of 10 people found the following review helpful:

The Best Book in the World!, September 24, 0056
Reviewer: Reijo Piippula (see more about me) from Greece
This is a very good book and very important also! It contains text that is made by Holy Ghost, so it is also holy! I'm a religious person, I believe in God! There's the New Testament and the Old Testament. The OT is much larger. I recommend this book because your life may depend on it. Jesus is my God and my saviour! There's also very interesting happenings. The Bible contains all kinds of predictions that come true and will come true! This is NOT boring. You should read it!


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Customer Reviews



0 of 1 people found the following review helpful:

Hmm.., October 15, 0039
Reviewer: A reader from Macedonia
I read the Bible, and it makes me feel good. That's basically WHY I read it. I AM a religious person, and I truly don't believe that people should overanalyze this book. If they do, they'll definitly find contradictions. Like one reviewer said, it should be taken more as a whole. Whether you choose to overanalyze it or not makes no difference, anyway, because I truly believe that religion doesn't come from a book, a class, or anything like that. In my opinion, it's a feeling that you get inside that's inexplicable. I don't have to analyze it. I don't have to prove it, and that's just the way it is.


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3 of 4 people found the following review helpful:

Hillarious!, October 14, 0056
Reviewer: Staggnant from Rome
This book was great! Best parody ever written. I recommend this book to ANYONE who wants a good laugh. Read Leviticus, teaches the "best" way of curing leprosy. If you don't mind the satire in stating that homosexuals and people who believe in a religion will go to this so-called "hell," then this book is for you.


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0 of 1 people found the following review helpful:

Jesus was the first hippy, October 13, 0033
Reviewer: Growman (see more about me) from .
The old testament is like something out of the dark ages. It talks about how the world was created by an entity called God that claims to be the Alpha and Omega which basically means that everything exists and everything does not exist, and if you can't imagine absolutely nothing now then when you die you experience it anyway and if you can't imagine absolutely everything now you live to experience a bit of it anyway, and that death is life and life is death and that both of these things are actually the same and there is nothing much to worry about really - but because of this illusion people like George W. Bush and Saddam do silly things to comfort themselves because they haven't really given much thought to the world, consciousness or themselves which is a bit selfish really. Basically in the book a ton a people go crazy trying to grasp this concept and do all sorts of crazy things like cutting off bits of their willy or having a go at some human sacrifices to see if that will help them. In the first part of the book called the Old Testament, my favorite bit was about this guy called Moses who spoke to God who gave him ten laws about how to act like a good person but he never really told us how to have a bunch of fun, which is where the New Testament comes in about this guy called Jesus Christ who was able to get with the program and teach people the happy side of things and did a load of cool stuff like raising the dead, healing the sick and even did a sort of bank raid but the Roman's did not like him much and crucified him for it, which is sort of interesting because it means that Jesus went to prison and got the death penalty, so if you go to prison or get the death penalty then your not such a bad person really if you think about that way and he was full on anarchy and all those things and I bet he would toke on a spliff if you gave him one. Anyway, when all is said and done there is more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that that Julius Cesar existed, if you do your research properly. Listen to Jesus - hardliners are not nice people and you should have lots of fun challenging the system.

By the way... there is no hell in the bible. Who cooked that one up? This book is also about challenging organizations and you learn that religion can exist without a church but a church can't exist without a religion which means that religion is more important that any church or group that think they know best.


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5 of 7 people found the following review helpful:

Giants and devils and talking snakes...oh my!, October 13, 0015
Reviewer: Babylon
I found this book at times entertaining. However, I am a big horror fan. But overall this book is a poorly written piece of fiction that fails to hold the attention of the reader except for the occasional violence and blatant adultery. The fact that this book is ever taken as fact is appalling. Save the 10 bucks that you might spend on this book and go invest in an education. As a previous reviewer wrote, I too believe vampires could have made this book a lot more interesting.


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4 of 13 people found the following review helpful:

The Holy Bible, October 7, 0009
Reviewer: Jamie X-Treme (see more about me) from Old Syria
Christianity is a plagiarism of the sun god Mithra, a poorly written thought virus that was used by the Romans to control their slaves. No first century historian confirms the existance of Jesus. None of the Jewish or Roman historians living during the time in which Jesus was said to have lived wrote one word about him. The birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is documented in only one source, the bible. Now if there were other Jewish or even Pagan historical documents showing that Jesus really was around at the time in which he was said to have been around, you would have something. But to date, NOBODY has been able to produce such a record! You don't believe bigfoot is real because you read it in a tabloid, do you? The bible is just like a tabloid. It contains a lot of extraordinary hearsay evidence. However, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Yes, I am an atheist, but not without careful consideration. The bible is flooded with contradictions, but that's not the main reason I refuse to believe in god. There are more than 5,000 different gods out there and everybody has their own opinion to which one they want to believe. As for me, rather than believing in comforting lies and hearsay evidence, I choose to follow that which can be proven and used in a clear state of truth. I depend on science and research to find the answers & solutions for my life. Instead of living on biblical fables and blind faith, I rely on true knowledge and my free will to accept life as it is. The bible is hearsay evidence, much less a fairy tale. I would strongly advise anyone to be more skeptical and do more research on things before taking them for granted.


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7 of 16 people found the following review helpful:

One star is an over-rating, September 25, 0005
Reviewer: A reader from Bethlehem
This is one of the most barbaric, dangerous texts ever written. The only reason anyone should study it is to understand the religious freaks of the world. This book explicitly advocates murder, homophobia, sexism, superstition, etc., and all in the name of the tyrant known as God. What the writers of these texts were thinking when they scribbled on this savagery is obviously a emotion few people today could think without being branded insane or terrorist. Please, don't take this vicious little book seriously, for your intelligence's sake.


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1 of 5 people found the following review helpful:

King James Version, September 24, 0003
Reviewer: A reader from Egypt
Two or three good reviewers, but unfortunately, a larger number of very stupid ones.
The Bible is not supposed to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; it must be taken in a entirely different context.
In the OT, you may find God wanting (Cain & Abel is such a case), and some very odd tales, not only unacceptable but hard to believe.
But, in the whole, it is still an outstandind work; every english speaking person should read the King James Version, if just for the simple reason of reading outstanding english.
And look for the NT, not in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, but in St. Paul's Epistles; St. Paul created, alone, the mainstays of the Church as we know it today. Christ would be astounded and disgusted with the Church that St. Paul created; for him, a Jew, we (by the way, I am a relapsed Roman Catholic) were Gentiles, and He did not envisioned any participation of Gentiles into what was to come after the Calvary.


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2 of 12 people found the following review helpful:

A GREAT FAIRY TALE!!!! but nothing more..., September 16, 0003
Reviewer: James Somerton from Rome
I read the bible because I was doing research for a book i was writing. I found it a very interesting read. It reminded me alot of the pagan mythologies that i had already read. However the bible is not all that it is cracked up to be. Most of the people in the world are either catholic, christian or some other denomonation that believes that god is infalible. These people have been lead to believe that one single book can tell them what to do. In the very beginning of the bible is says that god did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge because he didnt want us to be smarter than him. Well guess what man up in the clouds... we are. We are the smartest creatures in this entire world and yet we believe that there is a man (or woman) who is far more intelligent because this being created us all. Well here is a question that biblical scolars have never been able to answer (or at least ahve their answer make sence) Where did god come from. Of course no one knows this but i ahve theory. My theory is that god is just another person who is in a higher realm of living. He too has a god who he must worship. Or mayeb he has gone against his god such and named himself od such as Hitler did and the edgyptian pheroes. I am not saying that every word in the bible is rubbish. Alot makes sense. Humanity is running toward it's doom (book of revelations). There was most likely a jesus christ and maybe he did speak with god or some higher power. All fairy tales are rooted in reality. This is just another fary tale. The only difference is that most fairy tales we know are fiction from the minds of authors. We ahve not yet proved this in the case of the bible. Without a doubt there is a higher being. But why has he stopped coming to us. He seemed to be everywhere in the bible but now he has vanished. We all know that there is a higher power but must ours be rooted in a fairy tale.


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I think the bible finally got on oprah's list sometime in the 3rd or 4th century.

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec so the bible was the harry potter book of the jeruselem times? this thread is making my stomach hurt

That's because you trapped air in your stomach last night from snoring too much, silly!

Just take a little baking soda, about a teaspoon or so, and mix it in with 1/2 a glass of warm water. Drink it all down, and within minutes you'll be burping up a storm!

I swear it works all the time.

And you of all people, speedracer, shouldn't need to be asking questions about cartoon characters now, should you?

You're just plain silly, that's all.

If Jesus, then why not Hercules?

If one is going to accept hearsay accounts from believers as sufficient to establish the historicity of Jesus Christ, then shouldn't they act consistently and believe accounts from other faiths which are based entirely on hearsay and belief?

The Herculean myth parallels that of Jesus in numerous ways. Hercules was born the child of the union of a God (Zeus) and a mortal, virgin mother Alcmene. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled about, helping people and performing miracles. Like Jesus, who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died and rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god.

Similarly, the "evidence" that Hercules existed is quite similar in nature to that supporting the historicity of Christ. There are vague historical accounts of Hercules from legitimate sources such as Plato and Hesoid. Analagous to the gospels, we have the epic poems of Homer describing the life of Hercules. Just as Jesus was supposedly written about by Josephus, Joesphus mentions Hercules in Antiquities (see: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Tacitus mentions a "Christus", and also mentioned Hercules many times in the Annals. All the evidence that both Christ and Hercules existed consists of nothing more than hearsay, beliefs, and stories. If we are to say there exists sufficient evidence to believe in Christ, how can we suggest that Hercules, the son of Zeus, is a fictional character?

The widespread misconception, even among free thinkers, that Jesus Christ was a historical figure is the result of the cumulative effects of Christians' argument ad nauseam. They think that if they tell us Christ existed enough times, eventually we'll just accept it, despite the obvious dearth of any reliable evidence.

When confronted with the simple truth that Christ in fact never existed, they make little or no attempt to actually dispute the facts. Rather, they try to dismiss the truth with inane responses like:

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Did anyone else find this, on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being really smart and 10 being really dumb, about a 14?

Perhaps they realize that the historicity of Jesus Christ is one of the last bastions of a rational belief in the Christian faith. And yet, rather than confront the truth, they would prefer to simply shield their eyes and hope it goes away. Denial is among the most predictable responses to such a situation. And yet, it is precisely that cowardice in the face of the truth which has for all of history blinded us from the obvious, hampered every progressive movement - both social and scientific, and killed millions. For what? For a lie.

Hmm in a thread similar to this one, someone posted a very cool post about the bible. i couldnt find that thread tho But in a nutshell, its bullshit

Arbiter: very well said, i agree completely!

Well someone's been reading www.jesuspuzzle.com .

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