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Agreed. But I'd like this to be put on it's gravestone:

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight...know nothing but the Word of God."

-Saint Augustine

I really do believe the ability of humankind to hang onto defunct vices far past their "best used by" date is directly rooted in religion; or at least I would be blissfully happy with that dogmatic belief.

Religion used to be able to prevail over common information and logic. I mean how else were you supposed to explain phenomena like gravity and light? Religion was the obvious answer, the insurmountable proof that points to some higher being that can just make some shit up every time a question is asked; or better yet, draw from popular belief of the day. The problem is, religion and its teachings is becoming a dated vice. It makes no attempts to revise its teachings, even as popular cultural values have turned away from it.

Science, no longer in its infancy, and advancing at a rapid pace compared to religion (or rather the "science" of religion "creationism") simply walks all over religion and its ridiculously old books that are sexist and racist. Science has proof and methodology, all religion has to offer is dogmatic beliefs and absolutism.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with having dogmatic belief or "blind faith." It just looks ridiculous when you try to juxtapose science and religion by putting them in the same arena. Science is the result of being raised and living in that arena, religion (in science's eye, and hence, in that arena) is the perpetuation of ignorance and fallatic logic.

I personally haven't totally discounted the existance(s) of supreme being(s). I have however, completely discounted christianity (or any religion that involves "The Bible"), Scientology and Islam. I would say all religions but I don't know "all religions" so that would be hasty.

I believe that if their is a "supernatural" force at work in our universe that has spawned these many phenomena it will eventually be explained in terms of science. Science can never be proven wrong in its own arena as it continually abandons theories that have been invalidated. Of modern history, newtonian science and general relativity have been abandoned as they fail to accurately describe the universe. Science evolves just as the evolutionary theory conjectures we do.

Holy shit guys, I leave the political forums for a week or two and this thread evolved into six pages? I thought we would have known from previous arguments with WoahNellie that she won't budge on her views, no matter how many graphs, articles, books, any sort of proof you show her. Remember the Ten Commandments being placed outside the courthouse thread? I do believed that went to six pages as well.

Many absolutely excellent points made in this thread. Shame I joined in so late! Everything I would have said has already been said! There's no point to repeat things to deaf ears.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Really,I don't need pity. That won't get me anywhere. :/ No,no I mentioned before you aren't attacking my beliefs. It's just when people take the subject of illness,especially referring to mine, that just kills me because it's a really sensitive subject right now.

Well, you see it's not that any one of us here thinks that you are less worthy because of your illness, as none of us actually takes the bible's words as a literal truth. However, if you were to take literally every word that is said in the bible, you would unfortunately come to such a conclusion. That is, of course if you read the old testament. Since the new testament sometimes mentions that the old laws shold be neglected and that god loves everyone. Now that I think of it, I'm wondering why the old testament is included in the christian bible in the first place, as it preaches a totally different philosophy than the old one.

I don't know a whole lot about the Kuran(sp?) I don't think I've made any remarks saying the Kuran isn't true..I don't believe Jesus is the real God, I believe Jesus is the real God's son.

Well, if you think the bible is true, then it is obvious that kuran isn't, since they are contradicting on many issues. But if you want to read kuran, you can check out:http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html. It's the same site that pointed out problems in the bible, but it does contain the whole kuran. I guess you won't have many objections to them bashing kuran, and if you do, just read the verses without reading the sidenotes, as the verses are correct. Besides, it's not very long either, not nearly as long as the bible.

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On the other hand,what makes people think the Bible is wrong the Kuran is correct? Or, why do muslims believe Jesus wasn't the son of God,but only a prophet? I have no idea as to why. But, they do. I'm not going to tell them they can't believe it.

Well, it's pretty simple why they believe so. Because of the environment they were raised in. Ask yourself, if you were raised in a muslim country and instructed to read kuran and if you were told it's the only truth, would you believe in bible? The simple and most likely answer is no. Now, why did the christians from that area of the world accept Muhammed's teachings in the first place? Well, although the large cities were mostly christian, the local arab nomadic tribes still had a pagan polytheistic religion. Muhammed basically merged the two religions and created a new monotheistic religion with many elements of the arab beliefs and rituals. It was a rather agressive belief system, but acceptable to both parties, and it resulted in Muhammed's forces conquering many arabic lands. The expansion to the north was temporarily ended by Charlemagne and the Byzantine empire (East Roman empire). Arabic lands were pacified for a while, until Turks came. They were also a nomadic pagan tribe and they adopted islam very quickly. They started a rapid expansion and among other things conquered the Byzantine empire. They also closed the trade routes and imposed severe taxes on silk, so the europeans were forced to circumnavigate Turkey. Hence the european naval expansion and the discovery of america. Heh, I got carried away a bit, but there's your history lesson for the day

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It's a stomach and a bladder disorder due to my back,and they are thinking a few other factors,but they still don't know exactly what I have,and how to treat/cure it..:/

Well, I hope they'll find out what's wrong and that you'll be better soon.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, it's pretty simple why they believe so. Because of the environment they were raised in. Ask yourself, if you were raised in a muslim country and instructed to read kuran and if you were told it's the only truth, would you believe in bible? The simple and most likely answer is no. Now, why did the christians from that area of the world accept Muhammed's teachings in the first place? Well, although the large cities were mostly christian, the local arab nomadic tribes still had a pagan polytheistic religion. Muhammed basically merged the two religions and created a new monotheistic religion with many elements of the arab beliefs and rituals. It was a rather agressive belief system, but acceptable to both parties, and it resulted in Muhammed's forces conquering many arabic lands. The expansion to the north was temporarily ended by Charlemagne and the Byzantine empire (East Roman empire). Arabic lands were pacified for a while, until Turks came. They were also a nomadic pagan tribe and they adopted islam very quickly. They started a rapid expansion and among other things conquered the Byzantine empire. They also closed the trade routes and imposed severe taxes on silk, so the europeans were forced to circumnavigate Turkey. Hence the european naval expansion and the discovery of america. Heh, I got carried away a bit, but there's your history lesson for the day

Wow color me impressed! I swear I've learned more in my last few years on history than I ever did in my 20+ years of education. I guess interest comes with age for me or something

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Well, I hope they'll find out what's wrong and that you'll be better soon.

As do I. I sincerely hope you are able to use all resources possible. Find an answer, treat the cause, and get better ASAP.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, if you think the bible is true, then it is obvious that kuran isn't, since they are contradicting on many issues. But if you want to read kuran, you can check out:http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html. It's the same site that pointed out problems in the bible, but it does contain the whole kuran. I guess you won't have many objections to them bashing kuran, and if you do, just read the verses without reading the sidenotes, as the verses are correct. Besides, it's not very long either, not nearly as long as the bible.

Yes, that's true that they are contradicting on many issues. (I'll be sure to check the link tonight.)
Well,I don't think it's right to be bashing something like that. The Kuran is important to Muslims,Just as the Bible is to Christians.

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Well, it's pretty simple why they believe so. Because of the environment they were raised in. Ask yourself, if you were raised in a muslim country and instructed to read kuran and if you were told it's the only truth, would you believe in bible? The simple and most likely answer is no. Now, why did the christians from that area of the world accept Muhammed's teachings in the first place? Well, although the large cities were mostly christian, the local arab nomadic tribes still had a pagan polytheistic religion. Muhammed basically merged the two religions and created a new monotheistic religion with many elements of the arab beliefs and rituals. It was a rather agressive belief system, but acceptable to both parties, and it resulted in Muhammed's forces conquering many arabic lands. The expansion to the north was temporarily ended by Charlemagne and the Byzantine empire (East Roman empire). Arabic lands were pacified for a while, until Turks came. They were also a nomadic pagan tribe and they adopted islam very quickly. They started a rapid expansion and among other things conquered the Byzantine empire. They also closed the trade routes and imposed severe taxes on silk, so the europeans were forced to circumnavigate Turkey. Hence the european naval expansion and the discovery of america. Heh, I got carried away a bit, but there's your history lesson for the day :

Oh but of course,where you are raised,and how you are raised makes a huge difference.

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Well, I hope they'll find out what's wrong and that you'll be better soon.

Thanks, I appreciate it.(and thanks to you to MisterOpus.)

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Yes, that's true that they are contradicting on many issues. (I'll be sure to check the link tonight.) Well,I don't think it's right to be bashing something like that. The Kuran is important to Muslims,Just as the Bible is to Christians.

Why isn't it right to expose errors, contradictions, intolerance and so forth in the holy books of religions?

I may be obsessed with Michael Moore, I may base my entire ethical code on what he says. That doesn't change the fact that he's a proven liar/wrong on some issues. Why shouldn't his lies be exposed?

In fact, if there's any book that should be scrutinized, then it's the bible & Koran. These texts are claiming to be the divine words of an omnipotent god who created the entire universe. They are also asking us to discriminate against gays, non believers and so forth, and justify the killing of non believers. Why shouldn't books that ask us to do this, and claim to answer questions like 'How did life start?' and 'Why are we here?' be scrutinized?

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, it's pretty simple why they believe so. Because of the environment they were raised in. Ask yourself, if you were raised in a muslim country and instructed to read kuran and if you were told it's the only truth, would you believe in bible? The simple and most likely answer is no. Now, why did the christians from that area of the world accept Muhammed's teachings in the first place? Well, although the large cities were mostly christian, the local arab nomadic tribes still had a pagan polytheistic religion. Muhammed basically merged the two religions and created a new monotheistic religion with many elements of the arab beliefs and rituals. It was a rather agressive belief system, but acceptable to both parties, and it resulted in Muhammed's forces conquering many arabic lands. The expansion to the north was temporarily ended by Charlemagne and the Byzantine empire (East Roman empire). Arabic lands were pacified for a while, until Turks came. They were also a nomadic pagan tribe and they adopted islam very quickly. They started a rapid expansion and among other things conquered the Byzantine empire. They also closed the trade routes and imposed severe taxes on silk, so the europeans were forced to circumnavigate Turkey. Hence the european naval expansion and the discovery of america. Heh, I got carried away a bit, but there's your history lesson for the day

Heh, interesting stuff.

It's probably also worth mentioning that Islam, according to many scholars, was actually born from those Christian sects who rejected the teachings of Paul and the centralized edicts that sprang from the council of Nicaea as a result. Christianity was essentially born from the teachings of Paul, whereas the teachings of James (called "Jesus' brother" - though it's unlikely that he was) - supposedly closer to the actual teachings of Jesus - emerged later in Islamic law and philosophy:

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A number of scholars have observed how ideas, motifs, themes, even words from the Dead Sea Scrolls make a suprising reappearance in Islam (in Shi'ite Islam especially, as it happens). [...] [T]he early church tackles the problem of which laws converts to Christianity must obey. [...] In the Acts of Apostles the problem is taken to James [...]. He gives Paul a letter to take to the Gentiles that says that, in short, some Jewish laws [...] prevail while others don't apply. [...]Paul never delivered this message to the Gentiles. Instead he claimed an apostleship of his own and developed his own radical doctrine [...]. Remarkably, though, centuries later, exactly these Jamesean legal rulings [...] reappear in Islam, in Islam's food regulations and general approach to law.

http://www.rationalist.com.au/62/p20-26.pdf

In many ways, Islam is likely to be more closely based on Christ's actual teachings (not St Paul's watered down versions) than Christianity is.

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Originally posted by Renegade In many ways, Islam is likely to be more closely based on Christ's actual teachings (not St Paul's watered down versions) than Christianity is.

I knew it would get to this someday!


Are you trying to tell me that Jesus was a terrorist?

what have I done?

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Originally posted by tathi please nelly do go on this is an old article i have been wanting to bring up for a while but havn't had the time nor did i want to create a thread solely for it, i think all the science nerds here will find it interesting: http://www.smh.com.au/media/2003/11...8674381518.html http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003...8674378878.html what do you think of the bifurcation between homo sapien and homo technicus, and the ethical problems that may come with it? Does this intelligent design show how godlike humanity is?

Oh man, this is so exciting, I read it and could not stop thinking about it for weeks. The concept of the human enhancing himself through the use of nanotechnology is so fascinating. Today, the human is at the base of each major scientific discovery and the more technology we've had the more discoveries we've made over the past 2 centuries. Having that in mind, think of the futer and in particular of the scientific advances that the super human (homo technicus) will achieve. It just makes me sorry for being born in the 20th century instead of in the end of the 21st.

The sorry part is that there is a vital hurdle that we will soon have to overcome. This hurdle is us, the modern post-industrial neandertals of the early 21st century. No matter how advanced we think we are today it is very clear that whitout changing our values, ideas and goals about life, society and the environment probably by 2050 we would distroy our habitats in any possible way:
through wars, through polution and through overpopulation. I think I should stop here as this topic is quite big and is more suitable for a main thread in the forum.

Anyway, as far as religion is concerned, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhism, etc. I think that the lack of evidence for the existence of the supreme beings (Gods), is enough proof against the whole concept. The interesting thing is that when u sart thinking why there is religion you can come up with some very plausible and logical explanations.

One of these is the following. The human as a conscious animal which has tha ability to imagine, communicate and comprehend has a very natural thought that starts to come up in its mind as soon as it reaches its sexual maturity. This thought is most easily summurised in the sentence: " Why am I here, what is the meaning of my life??? "

MOst of us will come up with the easiest and most logical concliusion: "I am here to live and give life by reproducing myself", but if that is the sole purpose of our existence then we are not much different than all the other animals on this planet. Now here comes the explanation of what religion may be. Since we all need to have some purpose or goal in our life, long time ago (the time when there was no religion) people were begining to realise that there is no purpose in their existence. It is a very scary prospect which makes you feel useless, it makes life seem meaningless. So here comes religion, born as a social fenomenon, or just a master creation of our powerfull minds it did the job. It gave its followers the goals, the values and the rewards and thus spread on a massive scale throughout the world. This is a thesis in progress, but the interesting thing is that there are some things which prove it.

One of them is the fact that most scientists are not religious. Scientists have a clearly defined goal which they have set for their lifes and therefore do not need religion.
Second one is the fact that there are probably hundreds if not thousands of different religions all around the world - is it possible for so many gods to exist up there in the sky, or is it just that we just need something to believe in in order to live a more meaningfull life???

Well these are just some of my thoughts, one of these days I am gonna sit down and try to put them all together in an essay and if you want me I will post it in TA.com, as to this post, it started as a reply and grew into something that is supposed to make you think and share your oppinions.

I will read your comments whit great interest, so do not hasitate to submit them.

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Originally posted by Itso Oh man, this is so exciting, I read it and could not stop thinking about it for weeks. The concept of the human enhancing himself through the use of nanotechnology is so fascinating. Today, the human is at the base of each major scientific discovery and the more technology we've had the more discoveries we've made over the past 2 centuries. Having that in mind, think of the futer and in particular of the scientific advances that the super human (homo technicus) will achieve. It just makes me sorry for being born in the 20th century instead of in the end of the 21st. The sorry part is that there is a vital hurdle that we will soon have to overcome. This hurdle is us, the modern post-industrial neandertals of the early 21st century. No matter how advanced we think we are today it is very clear that whitout changing our values, ideas and goals about life, society and the environment probably by 2050 we would distroy our habitats in any possible way: through wars, through polution and through overpopulation. I think I should stop here as this topic is quite big and is more suitable for a main thread in the forum. Anyway, as far as religion is concerned, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhism, etc. I think that the lack of evidence for the existence of the supreme beings (Gods), is enough proof against the whole concept. The interesting thing is that when u sart thinking why there is religion you can come up with some very plausible and logical explanations. One of these is the following. The human as a conscious animal which has tha ability to imagine, communicate and comprehend has a very natural thought that starts to come up in its mind as soon as it reaches its sexual maturity. This thought is most easily summurised in the sentence: " Why am I here, what is the meaning of my life??? " MOst of us will come up with the easiest and most logical concliusion: "I am here to live and give life by reproducing myself", but if that is the sole purpose of our existence then we are not much different than all the other animals on this planet. Now here comes the explanation of what religion may be. Since we all need to have some purpose or goal in our life, long time ago (the time when there was no religion) people were begining to realise that there is no purpose in their existence. It is a very scary prospect which makes you feel useless, it makes life seem meaningless. So here comes religion, born as a social fenomenon, or just a master creation of our powerfull minds it did the job. It gave its followers the goals, the values and the rewards and thus spread on a massive scale throughout the world. This is a thesis in progress, but the interesting thing is that there are some things which prove it. One of them is the fact that most scientists are not religious. Scientists have a clearly defined goal which they have set for their lifes and therefore do not need religion. Second one is the fact that there are probably hundreds if not thousands of different religions all around the world - is it possible for so many gods to exist up there in the sky, or is it just that we just need something to believe in in order to live a more meaningfull life??? Well these are just some of my thoughts, one of these days I am gonna sit down and try to put them all together in an essay and if you want me I will post it in TA.com, as to this post, it started as a reply and grew into something that is supposed to make you think and share your oppinions. I will read your comments whit great interest, so do not hasitate to submit them.

Chalk one up on the "I don't think their is a purpose to life and I'm not scared" board.... cuz that would be me.

Why does everything need a purpose... pfft, silly humans - animals don't go through life wondering what it's purpose is.

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Originally posted by SuperFarStucker Why does everything need a purpose... pfft, silly humans - animals don't go through life wondering what it's purpose is.

...that we KNOW of

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Originally posted by Yoepus hehe... and I thought Palestinian propaganda was bad

Yea, its almost as bad as the crap that comes out of Israel and the mouths of Zionists

Great Website

www.answering-christianity.com

This thread was dead and buried - what could possibly be gained by resurrecting it?

Of all threads to dig up...

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Originally posted by arctic This thread was dead and buried - what could possibly be gained by resurrecting it?

Hehe it's a new twist though ... instead of the theists vs. non-theists (or perhaps scientific theists) it's the christians vs. the muslims!

I don't know about you guys, but I for one approve of religious fratricide.

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe it's a new twist though ... instead of the theists vs. non-theists (or perhaps scientific theists) it's the christians vs. the muslims! I don't know about you guys, but I for one approve of religious fratricide.

Cool, us deists actually get to sit on the sidelines on this one. C'mon fundies, lemme hear ya say "Crusade"! C'mon Muslims, lemme hear ya say "Jihad!"

If this sucker's gonna get revived, I wanna see blood this time!

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Originally posted by occrider Hehe it's a new twist though ... instead of the theists vs. non-theists (or perhaps scientific theists) it's the christians vs. the muslims! I don't know about you guys, but I for one approve of religious fratricide.

My god - you might be on to something here. It's all very well to watch atheists, agnostics, humanists and deists demolish fundies in debates, but seeing fundies go at it with each other, that's something entirely different. Logical fallacies x2! Crazed scripture quoting x2! Failed prophecy apologetics x2! Insane attempts to reconcile errors and contradictions and logical absurdities in holy books x2! Threats of eternities spent in hell x2!

This is all too much, I'm lost for words. I can't believe it, you've actually invented the sceptic's heaven on earth!

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Originally posted by arctic My god - you might be on to something here. It's all very well watch atheists, agnostics, humanists and deists demolish fundies in debates, but seeing fundies go at it with each other, that's something entirely different. Logical fallacies x2! Crazed scripture quoting x2! Failed prophecy apologetics x2! Insane attempts to reconcile errors and contradictions and logical absurdities in holy books x2! Threats of eternities spent in hell x2! This is all too much, I'm lost for words. I can't believe it, you've actually invented the sceptic's heaven on earth!

You know the skeptics annotated bible has a skeptics annotated quran as well ... that could be their one stop shop to destroy each other's beliefs.

This thread brings back memories

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Originally posted by arctic This thread was dead and buried - what could possibly be gained by resurrecting it?

It's a Jesus-thread. You burry it and it resurrects itself.

it can't poosibly hold the same entertainment value the second time around

Nah treads like this are like left over food. Heat it up in the microvave and add some pepper to spice it up and its as good as yesterday when you had it for lunch

I feel the need to quote George Carlin here...so ill do it

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Everytime a bunch of holly people want to fight eachother, IM ALL FOR IT!

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