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-- Religious debate on Jews/Passion of the Christ
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WhoaNellie Maybe you don't,but I'm sure there are those who understand,and do care. You seem to be the only one complaining.

no one here with a rational brain can apprehend your convoluted and naive sense of logic

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** I feel somewhat embarrassed, but I could not afford to stay in band because it was about 500 flat right then and there. I play the drums and can totally relate to financial needs. My parents are divorced and my dad has a pretty nice relaxed income, but my mom's is not equivalent. Also, when I do go to church I may not put much in but that's because they ask every week.

alyssa....DEBATE OR STFU!!!!!!!!!!

PM me if u dont understand...

If God did not exist, then our world as we know it, would tumble into chaos. what prevents this galaxy of milky way to collide into another, or our planet to be not pulled into the sun. the sun is bigger than all planets in the solar system combined, but yet we have an orbit, the same every year.

Also, if God isnt real, then are we real? what makes you think we live in a physical world? we could be inside of a matric program just like our friend Mr. Anderson was. There is a philosophical saying..."i think, therefore i am"...well if you "am", what makes you think??

These passage exactly describing most of you...

John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Matthew 6:23
But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

I could go on and on about darkness and light. take science out of this, because science proves nothing but the material physical world. it cant prove thought, existance, or logic. it measures the measurable. its proves what can be proved. if something has mathematical properties to it, it is scienctific. if no then it is not scientific. the bible is not a scientific book, therefore you cannot look at it as though you are a scientist.

You people will never understand christianity or god, jesus, the bible, church. your eyes are closed. u are in darkness, and hate the light. do u know where your life is going?? in the dark, can you see where you are going?? no...you cannot. you dont know your future. but, in the light, can u not see where u walk?? in darkness, u know nothing but what u can touch. but you CANNOT SEE!! but few of you will understand what i have said....

funniest post ever, surely you're taking the piss heinz?

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Originally posted by Heinz If God did not exist, then our world as we know it, would tumble into chaos. what prevents this galaxy of milky way to collide into another, or our planet to be not pulled into the sun. the sun is bigger than all planets in the solar system combined, but yet we have an orbit, the same every year.

Thank you for proving that you have absolutely no understand of the basic laws of our universe (or science, if you'd prefer me to phrase it like that). Stop making unsupported assertions like that, they only show how ignorant you truly are. Back up what you say with evidence. Just because you say that the world would tumble into chaos doesn't mean that it actually will. You need to provide ev-i-dence.

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Also, if God isnt real, then are we real? what makes you think we live in a physical world? we could be inside of a matric program just like our friend Mr. Anderson was. There is a philosophical saying..."i think, therefore i am"...well if you "am", what makes you think??

�Also, if Fred the invisible elephant isn't real, then are we real? What makes you think we live in a physical world?"

By the way, we have these things called brains, you know, that mush inside our skulls. Some radical secular fundamentalists would have us believe that we think with our brains. What a load of hogwash!

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John 3:19 Isaiah 5:20 Matthew 6:23

More bible quotes, marvellous. You still don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that the bible has no meaning to non Christians.

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I could go on and on about darkness and light. take science out of this, because science proves nothing but the material physical world. it cant prove thought, existance, or logic. it measures the measurable. its proves what can be proved. if something has mathematical properties to it, it is scienctific. if no then it is not scientific. the bible is not a scientific book, therefore you cannot look at it as though you are a scientist.

Translation: Leave evidence out of this, evidence has no place here, because i don't have any!

FFS, I could just as easily claim that there is a fat female monkey that created the universe, she's sitting up in the sky right now! Pray to her or you'll be burned for all eternity! Oh course, I don't need to provide any evidence to prove that she exists, she just does, ok?

Have you ever considered the fact that science only proves the material physical world, because, well, that's all there is?

Dictionary.com definition of existence:
- The fact or state of existing; being. That deals with that absurd assertion. Need I go on? Again, provide evidence that science cannot deal with these things, instead of just announcing that it can't and/or doesn't.

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You people will never understand christianity or god, jesus, the bible, church. your eyes are closed. u are in darkness, and hate the light. do u know where your life is going?? in the dark, can you see where you are going?? no...you cannot. you dont know your future. but, in the light, can u not see where u walk?? in darkness, u know nothing but what u can touch. but you CANNOT SEE!! but few of you will understand what i have said....

Cool, a poorly written paragraph that makes absolutley no sense! You win the prize!

By the way, grammar and punctuation are teh cool.

"What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind." -Albert Einstein

The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know." -Albert Einstein

Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs. But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding. What is so wrong about this? Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.
Its sad really, cyprus king with his Che Guevara avatar. Is he someone you look up to? why dont we compare him to jesus shall we, they were both martyrs anyways right? both died for what they believed in. Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death. But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.
you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

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Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

did you ever stop and wonder that if Christianity did not exist, the theory of relativity may have been discovered 200 years ago? Christians love saying, Anton Lavey, Nietzsche, discovered the error of their ways on their death beds and prayed for Gods forgiveness.

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Einstein It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.

Have a look at diginuts sig for a definition of an apologist. Einstein was never a Christian, most people think he was a deist, but there is evidence claiming that he was an atheist

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs. But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding. What is so wrong about this? Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

"better human beings"? are you implying IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH?

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

God is standing right in front of me, we are sitting here together drinking a beer and laughing at your ignorance

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Its sad really, cyprus king with his Che Guevara avatar. Is he someone you look up to? why dont we compare him to jesus shall we, they were both martyrs anyways right? both died for what they believed in. Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death. But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.

I'm sure the innocents involved in the inquisition and the crusades agree with you. Religion in particular Christianity is based on fear, it is similar to stalinist communism in that they had to create a culture of fear to proselytize the masses

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless.

The political forum is renowned for its atheists / theists who question religion. Which means "you guys" came into our forum and tried to make our faith seem meaningless, in which we have given "you guys" pages upon pages of evidence which justifies our beliefs, and "you guys" retort by saying "the evidence of God resides in my personal message bank."

I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

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What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you, a hell. So is god going to send me to heaven?

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Originally posted by tathi if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you, a hell.

bahahahahaha! Best post ever!

*edit*
oops, i misread. I thought it said "if the price to get into heaven is ignorance and stupidity i'd rather rot in hell. The irony is, i'd find a place full of christians like you."

Oh well. Still good. I'm tired. Leave me alone.

ah i like that version better Nico, i'll have to use that next time ;P

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Originally posted by albertoR I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

That would seem to be a gross misrepresentation of the current debate, considering how many of us are in fact deists or agnostics and don't necessarily believe that there is no God.

True, we attack religion as an organization, not as a belief. We simply choose to believe what the evidence points to, and nothing more. We don't necessarily believe that there is no God, but we don't believe that there is one. The evidence for a God is no more pronounced than the evidence for a whorehouse down the drain of my kitchen sink, thus, I choose to ignore the claims of religion and believe that there *probably* is no God, since God explains nothing and the evidence doesn't seem to point me in that direction.

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How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

Are you dismissing organized religion as a mere stereotype? Obviously we can't predict the human traits of people who belong to a particular religion, but if these people can honestly claim to be a member of that religion, then we can almost certainly predict the things they believe in, since, in order to be called a member of that religion, they HAVE to believe it.

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope?

Why do theists have so much trouble differentiating between a live body and a dead corpse? "I" am not going to be rotting in a coffin. My dead body will have no consciousness. I am not "looking forward" to anything that happens AFTER I'M DEAD! I won't care. It makes no difference. What makes a difference is living THIS live to its fullest, because it is most likely the only time I have to exist. I'd rather enjoy this life than spend it worrying about an upcoming life that might not even really happen.

Aside from which, I've already explained how the concept of an Afterlife is a logical paradox, and is only really possible if you throw logic to the dogs. Man, I had a link to this a while back, I wish I could find it... does anybody else know? There was a whole article about the logical impossibility of an afterlife that articulated the paradox a lot better than I did.

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is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power?

Yes; scientific evidence, or rather, the lack thereof, is also the only thing keeping me from believing that my toilet begs for mercy every time I take a shit in it. It's the same principle in many ways. I choose not to believe in the supernatural when there is no evidence for it. Why should I choose otherwise?

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i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

Most likely I would, since God by any religion is defined as an intangible being. If he could stand in front of me, he would not be God.

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive.

Unfortunately, when those same people mount a foolish, silly, and downright childish attempt to make us believe the same things they do just because it's "given them hope", we have little choice.

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Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

Yeah. Now I see the error of my ways, I'll convert. Not. You can't seriously expect any rationally-minded person to swallow that crock, can you?

And again with the afterlife crap, anyway... learn to understand that a dead body is NOT CONSCIOUS. It's not aware of itself being eaten by maggots. The maggots might as well be eating a chicken fajita. The way you talk is merely a reminder to us rationally-minded people that religious dogma is comprised of little more than a series of scare tactics designed to intimidate people into giving money and following orders in order to avoid events that are otherwise completely beyond their knowledge and control.

Why would any free-thinking person want to put their life and future in the hands of an invisible entity, as opposed to their own hands?

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Originally posted by albertoR "What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind." -Albert Einstein The relativity principle in connection with the basic Maxwellian equations demands that the mass should be a direct measure of the energy contained in a body; light transfers mass. With radium there should be a noticeable diminution of mass. The idea is amusing and enticing; but whether the Almighty is laughing at it and is leading me up the garden path - that I cannot know." -Albert Einstein Einstein was one of the greatest scientists ever. He never said "there is no god" as most of you put it. Stating "there is no god" makes as much sense as saying "there is a god" neither of these statements can be proved. It is a matter of faith, period.

If we're going to mine quotes, two can play at that game:

"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him." - Albert Einstein

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." - Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

Even if Einstein was a religious person, that proves nothing. What matters is the evidence, not who believes in it.

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

The same could be said about our resident religionists. Some of them want to change people's beliefs as well.
On the other hand, maybe, just maybe, you could have made an unsupported assertion.

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But for what purpose? religion gives hope to many people, the teachings of jesus are about love, forgiveness, understanding.

FYI, Jesus does not equal religion.



Source: http://www.adherents.com/

Secular Humanism also gives home to many people. Just because something gives hope doesn't mean it is correct. Here we have Secular Humanism, and Christianity, both give hope. But only one (or neither for that matter) can be correct. If you're going to bring up Christian Ethics, then how do you reconcile the way god kills millions of innocent people in the bible? Was god right to murder 40 young boys for laughing at a bald man? Was god right to slaughter the entire population of earth because they were behaving badly?

If I were you, I would avoid the topic of Christian ethics, as your own holy book is riddled with ethically questionable behaviour and teachings.

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What is so wrong about this?

If it were true, and backed up by solid evidence, then there would be nothing wrong with it. But it isn't, plain and simple. Christianity is mind control, and it's teachings are far from morally & ethically justifiable. I suggest you read some of the late Carl Sagan's publications if you want to get an insight into where I'm coming from.

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Religion gives people something to look forward too. It gives them morality, not only to god, but to themselves and those who surround them. It makes them better human beings spiritually. How a person wants to interpret their beliefs is up to them, and to each its own. You cannont stereotype an entire religion for one persons fault.

I have no religion, yet I have something to look forward to, what's your point?

As for morality, then I strongly disagree there. Christian morality as portrayed & outlines in the bible is highly questionable, at best. I'm not stereotyping an entire religion based on one person's fault. I'm basing my view of it on it's very own holy book, which they claim is the word of god.

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i do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

I have life to look forward to. Humanity gives me hope. Secular Humanism gives me hope. Emotions give me hope. Life gives me hope.

The reason I don't believe in a higher power is because I've yet to see any evidence (scientific or otherwise) that one exists. And what an absurd assertion. If there was any evidence that god existed, of course I would believe. I disbelieve in the existence of god because I have yet to see any evidence. God sitting in front would be something that I view as evidence, and would cause me to convert to whatever religion this god claimed to belong to, so to speak.

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both died for what they believed in.

Prove that Jesus existed.

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Only difference is communism brings only misery, poverty, and death.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that there has never been a 'pure' communist state. As far as I know, no country has yet been able to make the jump from Socialism to Communism successfully. If my premise is true, then that invalidates your argument.

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But christianity on the otherhand, teaches hope, love and a better life.

As does Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Secular Humanism and so on. What's your point?

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you guys have every right to believe in what you want, but do not come in here and try to make peoples faith seem meaningless, when its helping them go through life's problems and it may be the only thing that keeps them alive. Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless.

Uh, this thread was started by a Christian, who came in and made a claim. He provided no evidence to back up the claim that he made. The burden of proof lies with the Christian. He chose to post in the debate forum, he chose to open his beliefs up to scrutiny, as I am doing now.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan.

Dictionary.com definition of meaningless:
- Having no meaning or significance.
I never set out to make his beliefs seem meaningless. Clearly they do have both significance and meaning, as he uses his beliefs to justify discriminating against others (namely homosexual people). If Christianity is the only thing keeping someone alive, then I would strongly urge them to seek the assistance of a medical professional, specifically that of a qualified & registered counsellor.
You've yet to demonstrate that atheism (or secular humanism, for that matter), is meaningless, so you're basing your argument on an unsupported assertion, therefore making it void.

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What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

What will keep me alive, uh, the universe will. Unless I choose to kill myself, die of natural causes, get hit by a car, or get a terminal disease and so on, then I shall stay alive. You've lost me here, what's your point?
If you mean what belief or ethical system I subscribe to, then at the moment desire Utilitarianism & secular humanism.

As for who is losing, simple, the person who's belief is incorrect. I try to live every day the the fullest. I prefer not to waste my life spending time in church, or intensely studying the bible, as this life is all I have. I've got one shot at this, one chance to do something positive with my life, and to help others in need of assistance. If I stuff it up, that's that, no second chances.

Just because somebody has faith that they are going to a better place, doesn't mean that they actually are going to go to a better place. I would much rather spend my time doing something i consider to be worthwhile, or something that I enjoy, than wasting what little time I have on ancient superstitions and irrational beliefs.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Most likely I would, since God by any religion is defined as an intangible being. If he could stand in front of me, he would not be God.

Again I agree fully with your post, but I would just like to mention here that the bible is filled with instances of god walking around and showing his human form to people, as well as talking to them face to face.

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Originally posted by arctic I prefer not to waste my life spending time in church, or intensely studying the bible, as this life is all I have.

You don't know what you're missing! The bible can be so humorous at times!

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 You don't know what you're missing! The bible can be so humorous at times!

Well, I have read it, and (evidently) rejected it, and for the moment I'm content to scan through http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ when I see an Xian say some that isn't quite right (or when I need a good laugh). I'll probably end up reading it again some day, as religion is something that greatly interests me. Come to think of it, what I said there wasn't quite right, there's nothing wrong with studying the bible, as it's a book that millions of people use to justify bigotry & discrimination. Know your enemy, so to speak.

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Originally posted by tathi I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

fuck off, you dont know shit about who i am so dont even begin to think you know.

apart from this asshole, i respect everyones opinions. I am not christian, or any other religion. I am agnostic. I choose not to believe. However i do respect people who have a religion and i dont try to destroy their beliefs like if im the fucking anti christ. What pisses me off the most is people who say god dosent exist as if they know. use " in my opinion god, jesus, whatever dosent exist". Sort it out.
thats all i have to say to you.

edit: and yes, for some people IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 I am willing,and I have. Just ask. Only a couple of people PMed me, So people must not want to hear I guess. So why are you complaining? To add,I don't find anything funny about this topic.

I find it ridiculous that you keep repeating that youre faith consists of the reasons of what happened in your life, and yet you're unwilling to give examples in a debate. Granted, you said someone could PM you. But then, they can't discuss what you have PMd back in the discussion, which makes the PMing you completely irrelevant, because this discussion is based on more than just two people.

I'm not laughing at the topic. I just chose to mix some sarcasm into my posts, because I don't approve of giving money to the church instead of directly to charities. I see so much money get wasted on meaningless and useless crap that the church "needs". Now, don't even bother to tell me that I wouldn't know condsidering I'm not Christian/Catholic/etc, because my mother is quite religious and very active in her church. Considering most polish people are quite devoute, all of our friends are also extreemists when it comes to religion. Believe you me, they strongly disapprove of the fact that our beliefs are different, but that's fine with me. I will not be brought down by criticism.

Regardless, all of your posts make regards to your "personal life" rather that concrete examples/evidence. For the sake of the DEBATE, you're going to have to do better than that.

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I see most of you atheists here attacking religion, as if you want to change a persons beliefs.

I love these debates! If you're not a "left-winger", you're an athiest. Come on boys, think of better insults! Your generalization here is key.

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do want to know however, what do atheist have to look forward to? rotting in a coffin? dying alone? what gives you hope? is scientific evidence the only thing keeping you from believing in a higher power? i bet if god was standing right in front of you, you would still deny his reality.

You say that we shouldn't attack someone's beliefs, and yet your are doing it right here.... quite contradictory. Do you personally know what an atheist thinks/believes? No, because you are not one. So don't attempt to make such a claim as that without having any sort of knowledge to back it up.

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Its just makes you hypocrites when you dont see your whole lives are based on something real, yet meaningless. What will keep you alive when you are all alone if not faith? a science book? sad..kinda makes you wonder who is really loosing in the end, a spiritually religious person who's faith tells him he will go to a better place, or a faithless scientist who's reason tells him he will be eaten by maggots.

Please give an example of what scientist said such a thing please. I would like a direct quote.

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Originally posted by tathi The political forum is renowned for its atheists / theists who question religion. Which means "you guys" came into our forum and tried to make our faith seem meaningless, in which we have given "you guys" pages upon pages of evidence which justifies our beliefs, and "you guys" retort by saying "the evidence of God resides in my personal message bank."

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I bet you're a Mormon who goes around knocking on peoples doors and explain to them how meaningless there previous faith is.

Now this was just a ridiculous statement. Judgemental and full of generalization. If you claim you're a political forum regular, you should know to stray away from such comments or you shall be quoted and proved to be ignorant for making such statements.

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Originally posted by arctic FYI, Jesus does not equal religion. Prove that Jesus existed. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that there has never been a 'pure' communist state. As far as I know, no country has yet been able to make the jump from Socialism to Communism successfully. If my premise is true, then that invalidates your argument. As does Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Secular Humanism and so on. What's your point?

You are right, Jesus does not equal a religion. However they are many religions based on the foundatiuon of his teachings.

No one has proven that Jesus existed yet billions of people still believe without seeing, and they are not asking for proof, so whats your point?

you are right, no PURE communist state has ever existed, notice how i said Communist and not pure communist, there is a difference.

Yes those religions do offer hope , sorry for not including them.

anuneventrade: i wonder what u believe in..u seem so against religion, and in one post u r not atheist..whats ur belifs...others: it is understandable that u r atheists but i dont understand why u seem obsessed to be against religion,making fun of religion,attacking it,making fun of religious people so on n so on,whats wrong with havin faith,values and beliving in a higher power n goal,seems fine to me..i am not asking u to believe in it, i am just askin u to have some respect..and like someone said begin ur post with i think,we cant prove to a 100% the existance of god,u cannot prove to a 100% that he doesnt exist,u guys act that all u say is written in stone..to sum up show some respect to others and dont be so cocky..i can think of millions of ways for witty comebacks against atheists but i do respect ur opinion and so i wouldnt..thank u, rant over..

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Originally posted by tranceaholic anuneventrade: i wonder what u believe in..u seem so against religion, and in one post u r not atheist..whats ur belifs...others: it is understandable that u r atheists but i dont understand why u seem obsessed to be against religion,making fun of religion,attacking it,making fun of religious people so on n so on,whats wrong with havin faith,values and beliving in a higher power n goal,seems fine to me..i am not asking u to believe in it, i am just askin u to have some respect..and like someone said begin ur post with i think,we cant prove to a 100% the existance of god,u cannot prove to a 100% that he doesnt exist,u guys act that all u say is written in stone..to sum up show some respect to others and dont be so cocky..i can think of millions of ways for witty comebacks against atheists but i do respect ur opinion and so i wouldnt..thank u, rant over..

I'm not against religion in the least. However, I think that if an individual wants to present an argument, they need to at least give the basis of their argument, with the facts relevant to it. My sarcastic comments are simply to those that are contradictory with their claims, and to those that make absurd statements. I have a problem with certain religions.

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Originally posted by squirrelly I think there were many people in history that were wiser than others that were mistakenly given the title of the son of God, or God's messenger (aka Jesus, Krishna, Buddha among others). By speaking of peace and being wiser than their years, they were given a "Godly" appearance since most were not highly educated during their times. I think Jesus was a real person. Was he the son of God? No. Did he come back to life? No. Do I believe in God? I believe there is a higher being. This is the extreemely briefed version of my belief system. Perhaps I will get more into it when I am more awake and less stressed.

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Originally posted by squirrelly There is a higher being that guides us through life. There is no form, nor temple/church that you must go to in order to "prove" your belief. It is in everything and is everywhere. Through your decisions in life you have Karma. Life is to educate yourself and to be filled with joy. Once this life has ended I will move on to another to be educated further until my soul has completed it's course, and finds ultimate peace. I know I am protected and I feel calm with my beliefs. But I also give props to any other person's religious preference, or non preference. I don't think it's fair to try and force your particular belief upon others. If someone doesn't agree with what I think, fine, that's great.

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Originally posted by squirrelly I believe he was an actual person, but not the son of God. His "rising" after his death seems ficticious to me. I don't understand what sort of significance there might be with someone rising after three days only to die/disappear again. I think that he, along with others throughout history (as aforementioned, Krishna, Buddha, etc..) were quite intelligent people, and considering the education levels that were among commoners at the time, their "revalations" seemed extraordinary. Humans lived among earth for a long time before someone came along and said "Thou shalt not kill". Was it really necessary to have it "etched in stone" so to speak? Do we really have such a low confidence in our own species that we think that without the verbalization of such a "commandment" we wouldn't be able through instinct to not kill? The bible is missing quite a few years of Jesus' life, (I think from ages 18-32 or something of the sort) and that irks me. I don't believe in this nonsense of Noah's arc etc etc. I just think it was used as a fairy tale to tell little children in an attempt to get them to not sin. The bible, imho, is blown out of proportion.

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Originally posted by squirrelly Maharshi: That bliss of the Self is always with you, and you will find it for yourself, if you would seek it earnestly. The cause of your misery is not in the life outside you, it is in you as the ego. You impose limitations on yourself and then make a vain struggle to transcend them. All unhappiness is due to the ego; with it comes all your trouble. What does it avail you to attribute to the happenings in life the cause of misery which is really within you? What happiness can you get from things extraneous to yourself? When you get it, how long will it last? If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be free. If you accept it, it will impose limitations on you and throw you into a vain struggle to transcend them. To be the Self that you really are is the only means to realise the bliss that is ever yours. Sri Ramana Maharshi: There is no reaching the Self. If Self were to be reached, it would mean that the Self is not here and now, and it is yet to be obtained. What is got afresh will also be lost. So it will be impermanent. What is not permanent is not worth striving for. So I say the Self is not reached. You are the Self, you are already that. The fact is, you are ignorant of your blissful state. Ignorance supervenes and draws a veil over the pure Self which is bliss. Attempts are directed only to remove this veil of ignorance which is merely wrong knowledge. The wrong knowledge is the false identification of the Self with the body and the mind. This false identification must go, and then the Self alone remains. Therefore, realisation is for everyone; realisation makes no difference between the aspirants. This very doubt, whether you can realise, and the notion ?I have not realised? are themselves the obstacles. Be free from these obstacles also. Sri Ramana Maharshi: Existence is the same as happiness and happiness is the same as being. The word mukti (liberation or freedom) is so provoking. Why should one seek it? One believes that there is bondage and therefore seeks liberation. But the fact is that there is no bondage but only liberation. Why call it by a name and seek it? Question: What happens to a person after death? Maharshi: Engage yourself in the living present. The future will take care of itself. Do not worry about the future. The state before creation and the process of creation are dealt with in the scriptures in order that you may know the present. Because you say you are born, therefore they say, yes, and add that God created you. But do you see God or anything else in your sleep? If God is real, why does he not shine forth in your sleep also? You always are, you are the same now as you were in sleep. You are not different from that one in sleep. But why should there be differences in the feelings or experiences of the two states? Did you ask, while asleep, questions regarding your birth? Did you then ask ?Where do I go after death?? Why think of all these questions now in the waking state? Let what is born think of its birth and the remedy, its cause and ultimate results. Question: Why do religions speak of Gods, heaven, hell, etc.? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Only to make the people realise that they are on a par with this world and that the Self alone is real. The religions are according to the view-point of the seeker. Words of Wisdom: Sri Ramana Maharshi: Know your self before you seek to decide about the nature of God and the world

I took the liberty of finding my posts just for you

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Originally posted by trancepixie17 ** I feel somewhat embarrassed, but I could not afford to stay in band because it was about 500 flat right then and there. I play the drums and can totally relate to financial needs. My parents are divorced and my dad has a pretty nice relaxed income, but my mom's is not equivalent. Also, when I do go to church I may not put much in but that's because they ask every week.

I'm sorry to hear that. I really hope things start to work out for you.
But yeah, I understand. I don't always give.. I never gave to the churchs I went to because they never really helped me grow in God. I was to busy trying to avoid their little groups. :/

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Originally posted by tathi no one here with a rational brain can apprehend your convoluted and naive sense of logic

That was uncalled for. But,no skin off my nose. I'm not naive.

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I find it ridiculous that you keep repeating that youre faith consists of the reasons of what happened in your life, and yet you're unwilling to give examples in a debate. Granted, you said someone could PM you. But then, they can't discuss what you have PMd back in the discussion, which makes the PMing you completely irrelevant, because this discussion is based on more than just two people. I'm not laughing at the topic. I just chose to mix some sarcasm into my posts, because I don't approve of giving money to the church instead of directly to charities. I see so much money get wasted on meaningless and useless crap that the church "needs". Now, don't even bother to tell me that I wouldn't know condsidering I'm not Christian/Catholic/etc, because my mother is quite religious and very active in her church. Considering most polish people are quite devoute, all of our friends are also extreemists when it comes to religion. Believe you me, they strongly disapprove of the fact that our beliefs are different, but that's fine with me. I will not be brought down by criticism.

Nope,it's not irrelevant. People still get their answer.

I don't really care if you approve or not, I don't need your approval to do it or not. But,let me just say this..If people didn't give tithes, many people would be dead right about now,and many more people would be suffering. That tithe money goes to good causes.

Well if you don't like criticism,why are you criticizing others?
"Do unto others as you'd have them do to you." You should know that by now.

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Regardless, all of your posts make regards to your "personal life" rather that concrete examples/evidence. For the sake of the DEBATE, you're going to have to do better than that.

Well,if you want to know.You'll PM me,now won't you?

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Originally posted by anuneventrade Please give an example of what scientist said such a thing please. I would like a direct quote.

back what up, no scientist said it, im saying it.

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Originally posted by anuneventrade You say that we shouldn't attack someone's beliefs, and yet your are doing it right here.... quite contradictory. Do you personally know what an atheist thinks/believes? No, because you are not one. So don't attempt to make such a claim as that without having any sort of knowledge to back it up.

Dont make presumptions my friend, i am agnostic however I was bapized and had my first communion in the catholic church. It wasnt until recently about 2 years ago that i lost faith, but i wont get into why.

ok so lets say i dont know what an atheist belives in. why dont you enlighten me. talk about making claims without back up.

Edit. Oh yeah one more thing; i find it funny that you consider religion as something that brainwashes the minds when some of you come here with a philosopher's ideals and state them as if they are true. Hypocritical isnt it. I guess the bible brainwashes as much as your philosopher's novels brainwash you.

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Originally posted by albertoR back what up, no scientist said it, im saying it.

Nevermind. Flew over your head.

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Dont make presumptions my friend, i am agnostic however I was bapized and had my first communion in the catholic church. It wasnt until recently about 2 years ago that i lost faith, but i wont get into why.

So you personally believe there's nothing to look forward to other than a coffin and maggots?

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ok so lets say i dont know what an atheist belives in. why dont you enlighten me. talk about making claims without back up.

At what point and time did I say I was an atheist? In fact, I think I even went out of my way to say I wasn't one. However, I do have close friends that are atheists, and they don't see maggots in their future.

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Edit. Oh yeah one more thing; i find it funny that you consider religion as something that brainwashes the minds when some of you come here with a philosopher's ideals and state them as if they are true. Hypocritical isnt it. I guess the bible brainwashes as much as your philosopher's novels brainwash you.

Never said that either.

last one wasnt directed at you m8..

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Originally posted by albertoR Edit. Oh yeah one more thing; i find it funny that you consider religion as something that brainwashes the minds when some of you come here with a philosopher's ideals and state them as if they are true. Hypocritical isnt it. I guess the bible brainwashes as much as your philosopher's novels brainwash you.

Justification? Example?

Also, "losing faith" doesn't exactly make you an agnostic. It just makes you more secular than the average Christian. To be agnostic you must actively look at the evidence and say, there's no way to tell if there is any God, or any afterlife, or any other supernatural elements, so I'm not going to assume that there is.

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